Review S19 EP38 : Down To The Fiery Finish

[RetroPokeFan]

XY131 Bulbapedia page: bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/XY131
Review the dubbed version of this *shudder* very controversial episode here.

(Runs away as fast as he possibly can while he waits for the storm to start again)

And on Bonfire Night too, TPCI what the hell are you thinking?

 

[Lillie]

Closing until the episode airs.

 

[Lillie]

Discuss and have fun!

 

[RetroPokeFan]

Discuss and have fun!

You sure about the fun mark? This is a pretty controversial episode after all.

 

[ScienceRules]

Many of the members have watched the Japanese episode, and are still sore about it.
It's sad, but I don't think many people are going to bother commenting. First time dub-watchers will be in for a mighty shock though!

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

I already gave my reaction and honestly, I was very furious, but I wanted to give my full thoughts on the episode. Despite the build up and signs that pointed in the direction of Ash winning, and all the development, they chose to let Alain win, which I thought made no sense at all. He’s already lost three times to him before, so why make him lose again? I still do not agree at all with this decision.

Pikachu vs. Charizard went as expected, though I’m disappointed Pikachu didn’t get in one last strike on the most broken and overpowered Pokemon this series has. Pikachu did good though, and managed to get two pretty hard hits, including a super effective one. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem like that damage carried over later.

Goodra vs Bisharp was a disappointment, seeing Goodra fall to Guillotine. Thus, Goodra was brought back without a single major win. As for Greninja vs. Bisharp, it was okay.

When Charizard returns the battle was just all over the place. Some bad moves, and some good moves. First of all, I don’t like how Water Shuriken wasn’t used while Charizard was still a normal Charizard, AND Rain Dance was active. It would have been super effective. Greninja managed to get a nice clean hit though with Cut. Aside from that, I like what Ash-Greninja did against Blast Burn to counter it and it seems like he got some nice Aerial Aces on Mega Charizard X. The Water Shuriken counter to Thunder Punch was cool as well, but...After taking the Mega Shuriken of Death, that broken Mega Charizard X STILL stood, despite taking 7 pretty strong blows from Pikachu and Greninja combined. A super effective Thunderbolt, a Quick Attack, a Cut, two Aerial Aces in a row, a Water Shuriken, and the Mega Water Shuriken...All of that, and Mega Charizard X still did not fall, which was ridiculous. I don’t think I ever seen a Pokemon take so much punishment and still stand. It takes two Dragon Claws and an ineffective Blast Burn though to take down Ash-Greninja who previously was able to handle two super effective Leaf Storms. It just made no sense to me. Mega Charizard X should have fainted and Ash should have won.

My biggest issue with them choosing to let Alain win is that not only do I think they made him too perfect as a trainer, but I honestly feel like losing would have been a good way to trigger some development for him. First of all, Alain constantly rants about how he’ll never lose again and how he has to be the strongest. How can you believe you’re that gonna be that invincible? You’re gonna lose someday. I think the writers needed to teach Alain that it’s okay to lose sometimes, cause apparently they have to teach that to viewers that by having Ash lose every league. So why can’t they also teach Alain? Another thought on his development is that he could have questioned his strength right here and questioned if he was even strong enough to help Marin and Chespie. Maybe such a huge loss could even have made him feel like he failed them. They could have done something like this, but nope! They have to make Ash lose and can’t accept that winning a league won’t realistically end his journey when there’s still the Champion’s League that DP and BW have told us about.

I don’t like to let one part ruin everything, but Ash losing to Alain just ruined this episode for me. This was a pretty terrible way to wrap this battle and the league up, and I thought the battle was pretty good for the most part. Seriously, was it necessary to make Alain this perfect? I give this episode a 4/10

Now that this bs is out of the way, BRING ON THE TEAM FLARE ARC! I've waited so long to see it dubbed.

 

[Sakuraa]

Hm.......................................................

I do like how they showed Pikachu as being too tired to use Quick Attack after the first attack. Its much more realistic than him just going attack, attack, attack, after all of this accumulated battling. Using Iron Tail on the field to block the Flamethrower was cool. Though going in to use Iron Tail to combat Dragon Claw was a bad move. Size tends to win in those situations and...yeah Charizard's came into play there. Should have gone with T-Bolt imo. Also, forgive me if I'm wrong, but it looks like reused the same exact image of Pikachu being KO'd by Sawyer's Sceptile as they did for him here with Charizard. Like I said in the last episode, I like how Alain specifically used Charizard to beat Pikachu. Shows 1. how much of a threat the little guy was 2. how he wanted to keep Bisharp to get another quick OHKO on something else.

Goodra. Poor Goodra man. He (and Noivern) pretty much got the worst match ups of this league. First he's up against a Pokemon his STAB move can't touch, then he goes against a speedy killer who resits all of his damaging moves. His only benefit was having Rain Dance so his Hydration wouldn't allow him to get paralyzed by T-Wave, but that didn't even matter in the end. Also, that Iron Head to the face tho...damn.

Well, it was nice to see Ash actually have Greninja using his water move with the boosted rain effects... for Bisharp. Seriously, why the hell didn't he use Water Shuriken on Charizard while it was still raining. He literally had the perfect opportunity to get a point blank boosted Water Shuriken in Charizard's face and he goes for Cut. That makes 0 sense. It's also just as stupid that Alain a. had Charizard start out with a weakened Flamethrower and b. didn't Mega Evolve him right away so he wouldn't have had the water weakness. Aye, great start to the final match up. Now I'll admit, using the Water Shuriken to stop Blast Burn was pretty dam cool. And I did like how it constantly showed Ash feeling Greninja's pain. But yeah, the giant glowing shuriken of death was a big tease. Also, I miss the days were Pokemon used moves that required them to recharge, and they actually became immobile for a moment to recharge...

I was upset about Ash losing at first, and to be honest I still kind of am a bit salty, but I'm not angry. I've stopped really caring about Ash or having any hopes about him winning a league for a while now, so this isn't a huge disappointment for me. The biggest thing for me though, and I know I'm immensely unpopular in this opinion, but I wish it would have been a tie. Yeah, Ash finally made it to the finals and I'm certainly grateful for that and yeah, his Pokemon technically still would have lost, but I would have much rather he have been able to say "At least I defeated his Charizard". Hell, even if Greninja would have fallen first he still would have at least had the honor of making Alain's strongest Pokemon go down as well. For me that would have been better than, he made to the finals, but he still didn't take his final opponent down. Ash was certainly wronged in Sinnoh with Tobias's legendaries, but at least he took out 2 of his Pokemon, something no one else could do.

I'm also bothered by the fact that Ash didn't seem even slightly upset over his loss. He just made it to the finals of a league and was one Pokemon away from claiming victory and then he lost. Can there be some emotion? I'm not saying he has to be depressed or enraged, but its almost like he has no feelings over it. Like it was just another battle he lost. I think a scene of him being a bit saddened after the match would have been nice to at least show that he has some feelings about his loss. The attitude of "oh well, maybe next time" just rubs more salt in the wound imo.

Overall, I'll give this a 6.7/10. Could have been much better, nuff said.

 

[Superblast]

I was upset about Ash losing at first, and to be honest I still kind of am a bit salty, but I'm not angry. I've stopped really caring about Ash or having any hopes about him winning a league for a while now, so this isn't a huge disappointment for me. The biggest thing for me though, and I know I'm immensely unpopular in this opinion, but I wish it would have been a tie. Yeah, Ash finally made it to the finals and I'm certainly grateful for that and yeah, his Pokemon technically still would have lost, but I would have much rather he have been able to say "At least I defeated his Charizard". Hell, even if Greninja would have fallen first he still would have at least had the honor of making Alain's strongest Pokemon go down as well. For me that would have been better than, he made to the finals, but he still didn't take his final opponent down. Ash was certainly wronged in Sinnoh with Tobias's legendaries, but at least he took out 2 of his Pokemon, something no one else could do.

You're not alone, I definitely wish they could have at least tied. Looking back on it, I don't think it was nearly as important for Ash to win the league so much as just taking down that stupid broken Charizard. I actually prefer Ash's match against Tobias to this because even if Ash couldn't hope to win, he was still able to go above and beyond and still pass the "test" given to him by beating Tobias's signature Pokemon. In this match, he pretty much just loses along with everyone else.

It doesn't help that Charizard doesn't even look damaged or worn out after the match. I still remember how by the end of Ash and Paul's final battle, Infernape was so exhausted it nearly collapsed and Ash had to help it stay on its feet. Charizard, on the other hand, is still standing strong with no bruises and even lets out this cocky roar after beating Greninja, almost like it hadn't even been truly pressured. And given its track record, that's very possible.

So yeah, this episode's a major facepalm for too many reasons to count, but to all the dub fans angry about the outcome I still recommend sticking around till the end. You might be pleasantly surprised if you're patient enough

 

[RetroPokeFan]

Wow, I've just noticed on Twitter that most fans are just shrugging Ash's defeat off rather than getting salty like a lot of other fans.

 

[Max1996]

Wow, I've just noticed on Twitter that most fans are just shrugging Ash's defeat off rather than getting salty like a lot of other fans.

Probably because most fans have already seen him lose in the original Japanese version of the episode.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

Yes, Superblast! If you stick to the dub and you're pretty angry with this episode, I urge you as well to at least stick around for the Team Flare arc.

Also, I admit I would have been happier with a tie as well. If Ash tied, at least we can say he took down that overpowered Mega Charizard X that they built up big time as THE Pokemon to beat, like Darkrai.

 

[Keshav]

BS! I was very salty when this first aired but I recovered a few weeks ago. But now... I'M SALTY AGAIN! DAMN IT, ALL THAT BUILD UP...THAT MEGA SHURIKEN! A WASTE!
Why they made a shuriken to be used only once in the anime? They could have just shown the same shuriken
that he use against Sawyer. A special move wasted when he wasn't even gonna win it. The trophy didn't look good in Alain's hands. That OP charizard won because of plot armor. This would have been my favorite battle If Ash actually won it. The battle was so nice but....
Ash should have just won it. He was the underdog. But he didn't win it! The production team has lost their brains. They could have just let him win and start with a new protagonist, probably Ash's son. It would have been so good. But no!
0/10

 

[Handy Man]

I already gave my reaction and honestly, I was very furious, but I wanted to give my full thoughts on the episode. Despite the build up and signs that pointed in the direction of Ash winning, and all the development, they chose to let Alain win, which I thought made no sense at all. He’s already lost three times to him before, so why make him lose again? I still do not agree at all with this decision.

Pikachu vs. Charizard went as expected, though I’m disappointed Pikachu didn’t get in one last strike on the most broken and overpowered Pokemon this series has. Pikachu did good though, and managed to get two pretty hard hits, including a super effective one. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem like that damage carried over later.

Goodra vs Bisharp was a disappointment, seeing Goodra fall to Guillotine. Thus, Goodra was brought back without a single major win. As for Greninja vs. Bisharp, it was okay.

When Charizard returns the battle was just all over the place. Some bad moves, and some good moves. First of all, I don’t like how Water Shuriken wasn’t used while Charizard was still a normal Charizard, AND Rain Dance was active. It would have been super effective. Greninja managed to get a nice clean hit though with Cut. Aside from that, I like what Ash-Greninja did against Blast Burn to counter it and it seems like he got some nice Aerial Aces on Mega Charizard X. The Water Shuriken counter to Thunder Punch was cool as well, but...After taking the Mega Shuriken of Death, that broken Mega Charizard X STILL stood, despite taking 7 pretty strong blows from Pikachu and Greninja combined. A super effective Thunderbolt, a Quick Attack, a Cut, two Aerial Aces in a row, a Water Shuriken, and the Mega Water Shuriken...All of that, and Mega Charizard X still did not fall, which was ridiculous. I don’t think I ever seen a Pokemon take so much punishment and still stand. It takes two Dragon Claws and an ineffective Blast Burn though to take down Ash-Greninja who previously was able to handle two super effective Leaf Storms. It just made no sense to me. Mega Charizard X should have fainted and Ash should have won.

My biggest issue with them choosing to let Alain win is that not only do I think they made him too perfect as a trainer, but I honestly feel like losing would have been a good way to trigger some development for him. First of all, Alain constantly rants about how he’ll never lose again and how he has to be the strongest. How can you believe you’re that gonna be that invincible? You’re gonna lose someday. I think the writers needed to teach Alain that it’s okay to lose sometimes, cause apparently they have to teach that to viewers that by having Ash lose every league. So why can’t they also teach Alain? Another thought on his development is that he could have questioned his strength right here and questioned if he was even strong enough to help Marin and Chespie. Maybe such a huge loss could even have made him feel like he failed them. They could have done something like this, but nope! They have to make Ash lose and can’t accept that winning a league won’t realistically end his journey when there’s still the Champion’s League that DP and BW have told us about.

I don’t like to let one part ruin everything, but Ash losing to Alain just ruined this episode for me. This was a pretty terrible way to wrap this battle and the league up, and I thought the battle was pretty good for the most part. Seriously, was it necessary to make Alain this perfect? I give this episode a 4/10

Now that this bs is out of the way, BRING ON THE TEAM FLARE ARC! I've waited so long to see it dubbed.

I agree completely with everything you said, well put.

 

[Simpsons138]

Me before during Japanese airing

Spoiler

Me right now after US airing

Spoiler

 

[jonathan keller]

They could have just let him win and start with a new protagonist, probably Ash's son.

That would be super disturbing if it was his son... he's a 10 year old boy,lol

 

[Brilliant Gold]

Well, I liked the music used during the fight between Ash and Alain. It had cinematic feel to it. And Sarah Natochenny and Billy Bob Thompson were awesome throughout the entire episode.

As for the Fiery Finish; I believe it was just for hype. The move looked powerful, Alain's reaction was another hint, and yet Charizard was unharmed and only flinched (Greninja had no bruises as well by the way). Unless it's a z-move for Greninja in Sun and Moon it was just for hype.

 

[sc190191]

Ash should have turned his hat backwards when they were focusing in on him, then he would have won. Maybe he can't because Ash-Greninja's look is based on the forwards hat....

Greninja seemed to have not taken very much damage, in fact really only one direct hit at all, while Charizard took a lot of hits. Too bad Greninja never got to learn any powerful attacks, which might have helped. Its annoying that Pikachu is shown to have taken so many hits and be fine, but Greninja only was able to take a few, because let's face it, that just doesn't make sense. Pikachu must secretly hold a light ball infused eviolite in order to do so well against pseudo legendaries.

Alain's team is super strong, which is cool, but his typing seems pretty interesting. 3 double weaknesses to fighting, at least everything else he has is good against fighting types. Unfezant doesn't really seem to fit the awesomeness of the rest of the team, and it was pretty disappointing that Talonflame tied with it, but i'm really impressed with the rest of his team.

Thank goodness there were no more ties this week, I think its such an annoying cop out when they want to set up a fresh 1v1. I was glad Greninja and Charizard had both battled some before their matchup, and they at least got Greninja a win in the battle. I think Ash's Pokemon that got wins makes sense (although I think they could have given Hawlucha two considering the type advantages and the shafting it has gotten), I mean Noivern evolved without very much training so I am kinda glad it didn't get a win here. Goodra's bide probably should have knocked out Bisharp though, but I really don't mind that result as much as the final battle.

Biggest disappointment of the league to me has to be Ash not talking to any friends/family and no one watching his final battle. This is honestly more disappointing than the loss. I mean how do you know call your best friends who travelled with you for years and helped you get to this point and invite them to attend the greatest battle of your life. I think maybe they would have had time for this if Sun & Moon weren't coming up so soon (as well as the glory Hawlucha deserved in battling Astrid, Jessie getting her keys a while back, and much more overall development). They could have at least shown cut scenes of Ash's friends watching the battle, I mean they have done that for some much less important events in the past and it really could be done in 30 seconds or less. They didn't need to show Goodra's swamp friends watching the match, it would mean a heck of a lot more to see Brock, Misty, May, and Dawn watching the battle (among many others, but I realize they wouldn't have time to show everyone). And of course his mother and Oak. I even think it would have meant a whole lot to show Paul and Gary watching it.

Also waiting years for a league and hoping to see old Pokemon and not get to is pretty disappointing, especially after it seemed inevitable considering the lack of catches in Kalos. Infernape would have looked really good against Alain's lineup and it would have been nice to see Ash bring a super team to at least one of his battles.

Its sad Ash is about to lose his mind again after having so much success and coming so close. Maybe they could think of a clever way for him to lose his mind this time instead of just hoping no one notices, like maybe getting hypnotized or get amnesia and slowly recover over Sun & Moon. Not sure if I'm going to have it in me to wait another 3 long years of no references to the past and Ash being a moron (plus the idea of school sounds awful, but thats not for this thread).

All in all it was a super disappointing result, and this episode wasn't that great either. I will admit the previous two were awesome, the battle was awesome in general, but the end was a little too quick. It wasn't quite Charizard v Blaziken, Pikachu v Meowth, or Infernape v Electivire in my mind because there wasn't much strategy in the final battle and it ended a bit premature. Still impressive, but I think Charizard took more damage, and they didn't even show Charizard as very tired afterwards. They could have at least had Charizard fall afterwards and be exhausted like Harrison's Blaziken was way back when.

Well I think I have talked way too much (I guess I missed this, but I had to try to avoid the result of this battle so the great disappointment could all hit me at once). Still excited for the Flare arc before Ash's mind crumbles and we (probably) get a disappointing lack of Pallet Town and old Pokemon.

By the way, I just thought about this and it may already be known, but does anyone think Alain might be Sycamore's son?

 

[Queen Cynthia]

First of all ,I've got to say that I already knew how the battle would end, so I wasn't that surprised anymore.
Second, of course, I feel disappointed Ash has come so far only for him to lose against the overpowered Mega Charizard X in the closest way possible.... Then I gave it a thought and here's what I think now: Yes, of course, Ash and Ash-Greninja would have deserved to finally defeat Alain and win the Kalos League more than anybody else! On the other hand, we're talking about Alain, a very passionate trainer who, just like Ash, always gives it everything he's got and about his mega-evolved Charizard that was shown to be able to defeat an Elite Four's Pokemon. Mega Evolution is said to be the strongest form of power a Pokemon could possess, so this was probably Ash's strongest opponent he's every battled against so far (apart from Diantha maybe) Also, the Bond Phenomenon, as great as it certainly is, is not a automatic guarantee for everlasting success. It's one of the most powerful and most epic things we've seen in Pokemon so far and it puts Ash above many many other trainers, no doubt about that, but let us not forget that the Bond Phenomenon with Greninja doesn't make Ash the champion automatically. I consider it a prerequisite and perfect basis for eventually reaching his dream but Ash and Greninja still have long way to go and many battles to master to perfect their bond. This work is far from being done.
in short, Alain was a wonderful opponent, Ash fought the undoubtedly greatest battle so far and both gave it everyhing the possibly could. We should be grateful to see such a spectacular show and that everything was logical and not a cheap, undeserved victory. And last but not least, the fact Ash HIMSELF was calm and collected afterwards shouldn't make us all that angry about the outcome, either.
One thing, however, bothered me as wll and Iagree with you about that: The fact Charizard seemes unharmed and withoud bruises after that epic Water Shuriken. While everything else was written really well, this one was not very logical. After that massive showdown both Pokemon should have been totally worn out and exhausted. So, I fully agree that Charizard was portrayed too powerful.

Well, that was the league. Really a great one which will not be forgotten!
And now let's see what the Team Flare arc will be like. I'm curious!

 

[345ash-greninja]

Most heartbreaking battle of the entire anime. What was the point of hyping up the giant orange shuriken if it wasn't going to finish off Mega Charizard-X? To just troll viewers to a false belief? The dub title of this episode was okay, but the japanese title of this episode was seriously trolling- 'Kalos League Victory! Ash's Ultimate Match!!' The viewers were really trolled by the giant orange shuriken hype and the misleading title. Ash has every reason to win this battle as he never defeated Alain before. And he started the battle so well! But alas! Finally there was a lot of hope of Ash winning the League, and it all went down the drain, crushing all hopes!

 

[Poke Trey]

Watched it and honestly while I am dissapointed that Ash lost, I'm still going to be watching this show as we have the TF arc happening soon and from what I've heard is pretty good. So, I'm not going to let Ash's loss be the last for me as we still got a ways to go till the series finale. Besides people, TF hype am I right?!