Serena's Pancham has a past

[Misty-Moo]

I've touched on this a couple of times before, but because it would have derailed those threads, I didn't pursue it, but I still think it's interesting and something that warrants discussion.

Serena's Pancham knows two moves that it can only learn via TM - Stone Edge and Dark Pulse.
I'm aware that the anime tends to be rather inconsistent with the moves that Pokemon know/use, but this can't be the case here.
This is what I think - Pancham was previously owned by a Trainer who didn't want to be a performer like it clearly does and either released Pancham or it ran away.
Therefore, this leaves us with the possibility of a future storyline where Serena and Pancham's old Trainer meet each other (a la Ash and Tepig's old Trainer) for example, when she becomes more well know as a performer. I think this could be very interesting, it would display Serena's bond with her Pokemon, her strength as a Trainer, etc.

[Edit - added some more from my other post here to draw everything together]

It's shown to know where they're held and when they're going to be. It makes a point of breaking in and gets straight to the stage, seemingly without any difficulties. Also, it knows the value of accessories in relation to performing and was clearly working on a routine - that breakdancing thing can't be natural behaviour. All these appear to be rather inconsistent / things that a wild Pokemon wouldn't be interested in.
In comparison to Serena's Eevee, who appears to simply be a Pokemon who enjoys dancing / happily skipping around for its own enjoyment, Pancham seems to have been definitely working towards a specific goal.

What do you think? Is this a possibility, or am I just reading too much into the situation?

(Note to mods - this is the right place for this, isn't it? The Pokemon are characters just as much as the people, aren't they? - If not, sorry, please move this)

 

[Hidden Mew]

The thread has been approved, but moved to the main section. I apologize again for the delay.

 

[DS0308]

I think you may be looking too much into it. Ash's Frogadier learnt Cut naturally despite it only being available through HM, additionally Braixen has Hidden Power and that's a TM move. I think you answered your own question when you said that the anime is inconsistent on the moves Pokemon can learn (I'd assume in relation to level up movesets, or in an anime context natural learning).

 

[Misty-Moo]

I see your point, but from it's introduction, Pancham seems to know a lot more about performances than a wild Pokemon should.
It's shown to know where they're held and when they're going to be. It makes a point of breaking in and gets straight to the stage, seemingly without any difficulties. Also, it knows the value of accessories in relation to performing and was clearly working on a routine - that breakdancing thing can't be natural behaviour. All these appear to be rather inconsistent / things that a wild Pokemon wouldn't be interested in.
In comparison to Serena's Eevee, who appears to simply be a Pokemon who enjoys dancing / happily skipping around for its own enjoyment, Pancham seems to have been definitely working towards a specific goal.

 

[ii kanji]

I like to think you're right. I agree - Yancham strikes me as a pokemon with a history and not because of its moveset (about which I previously knew nothing but thanks for the info ). The dancing, its savviness and its headstrong personality just hint enough for me to believe that there's a story to be told there. I'm optimistic that if Horubee was allowed to have a past that Yancham (an arguably more popular pokemon) will get its chance. Fingers crossed!

 

[Mikuri]

Since TMs and HMs do not exist in the anime, Pokémon can learn these moves naturally. For instance, in Team Shocker!, Kenny's Breloom was teaching Ash's Turtwig how to use Energy Ball but neither one of them is able to learn the move via level-up in the games. The writers sometimes forget to check if the move can even be learned by the Pokémon at all in the games and just go with it, cough cough Sawyer's Slurpuff's Electro Ball. I don't think knowing a particular move means anything unless it is a tutor move as the writers have been somewhat consistent with this (Ash's Buizel and Gible learning Ice Punch and Draco Meteor, respectively).

About having knowledge of accessories and performances, I think Pancham became interested in Showcases the same way Dawn's Ambipom became interested in Contests. She was a wild Aipom when she watched a Contest Battle for the first time in the Kanto Grand Festival and she learned how to make her moves more appealing while still under the ownership of Ash. Aipom was able to make her moves stand out before she started being raised by a Coordinator, and that's why I think Pancham could have learned to perform the way it does all by itself, just by observing other Performer's Pokémon.

However, I wouldn't mind if Pancham had been released by its original Trainer because she was going after Gym Badges instead of aiming to become Kalos Queen. It would be very interesting to see Pancham reuniting with its previous Trainer, especially if she caught another Pancham that is as good at battling as Serena's Pancham is at performing.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

The anime tends to ignore moves as TM's and HM's and those moves are just learned naturally. Pancham could have had a trainer before Serena and it could make for a unique story, if he(Headcanon for me is Pancham is male.) was abandoned because his trainer wasn't interested in performances, or he ran away. I'd love to explore Pancham's past a little bit, if there's time for it and see how he got into preforming, or if he even had a previous trainer. We still got time, considering we have the Team Flare arc, Perfect Zygarde, the 8th gym, and the Kalos League.

 

[dman_dustin]

Let's use Game Logic and Anime logic together to discuss this theory.

But first, I have no problem if Pancham did have a past.

TMs, HMs, Move Tutors, egg moves, etc exist in the games for basically one reason. Increased difficulty. Imagine how easy it would be if you just to the move re-learner and you can teach a Pokemon ANY compatible move it can actually learn. If it was capable at some point in using said move (except movie event Pokemon moves) then it would be able to learn it. That would make things WAY too easy, and the whole entire point of the games is to "train" your Pokemon, and it's supposed to have some challenging aspects to this. Especially if its natural moveset would be too large, if it could learn a new move every level (and even then I'm sure some moves, wouldn't be learned, since I'm sure one Pokemon out there can learn over 100 different moves).

Now for the anime. The games will always have technical limitations, it's not possible for the games to be as realistic as possible, because its hindered by programming, which I'm sure isn't infinite (at least when you have space to consider, as well as specifications of the device the game is on). The anime however is really only limited by imagination, so it can afford a lot more realistic scenarios rather than the games, such as Bayleef using vine whip to close a Pokemon's mouth preventing it from breathing fire, or using vine whip to pick an apple from a tree, things you can't do in the games.

All these extra moves that Pokemon can learn (HMs, TMs, Move Tutors, Egg Moves), do not require these extraneous methods to learn. At most as some episodes have shown, all you have to do is have your Pokemon see the move, and knowing Pancham likes to perform, it could've easily seen Pokemon using dark pulse and stone edge. But it's not a requirement for Pokemon to have a trainer to learn these moves.

Pokemon in the games are static images basically with no direction or will of their own, and are entirely dependent on the player character, or the NPCs to actually be more than they actually are. They can't watch Pokemon and learn how to perform moves.

However the Pokemon in a setting like the anime, are more "sapient" than their game counterparts. They actually have a direction to follow and have a will of their own, while trainers only "guide" them but aren't necessary. So anime Pokemon can learn moves easily without any sort of extra training method because they aren't forced to adhere to game programming.

So it is reasonable to assume, Pancham can have dark pulse, and stone edge as a wild Pokemon.

 

[Perpetual_Phoenix]

Eh, I wouldn't bet on it. TM and HM don't exist in the Poke anime world. Pancham could have learn those moves on it's own or by mimicking another pokemon it saw performing said moves. Although I wouldn't throw the idea of it having a trainer beforehand out the window yet. It would be interesting if it did but Ash's soon to become Greninja already took that poke development path. So basically I wouldn't count on it.

 

[Misty-Moo]

I've added the salient points from my second post here into the first, because I think some people are quite understandably missing them

 

[dman_dustin]

It's shown to know where they're held and when they're going to be. It makes a point of breaking in and gets straight to the stage, seemingly without any difficulties. Also, it knows the value of accessories in relation to performing and was clearly working on a routine - that breakdancing thing can't be natural behaviour. All these appear to be rather inconsistent / things that a wild Pokemon wouldn't be interested in.
In comparison to Serena's Eevee, who appears to simply be a Pokemon who enjoys dancing / happily skipping around for its own enjoyment, Pancham seems to have been definitely working towards a specific goal.

Okay I didn't see this part, I thought it was only about the moves.

However to relate it to my post, the logic is still the same. Anime Pokemon are not static sprites without will or thought. Pokemon seem to be incredibly sapient, as shown many times, with all the Pokemon that can communicate with humans, such as Meowth.

Meowth is a prime example. He's a Pokemon that is wild but knows a lot of things, for a wild Pokemon. He knows how to invent machines, communicate with humans speaking their language, speaking Pokemon language, and can do things nearly as efficient as humans can. But he's wild.

Now granted Meowth has the advantage of being around humans a lot, but at the same time that's kind of the point. Pancham is not as well versed as Meowth is in terms of humans life.

It would make sense for Pancham to be looking around, probably for food or to steal things (as Pancham was known to do), and come across Pokemon Showcases, and become interested in it.

It also liked to take things that didn't belong to it, such as Ash's hat and Clemont's glasses. All of these things could easily indicate a normal sapient level intelligence for a wild Pokemon.

It doesn't need the direction of a trainer to do any of these things. The issue I believe is assuming they are just like normal animals but only become sapient once they are caught by a human and therefore wild they rely on their instincts. While that may be true for some Pokemon, I think Pokemon ordinarily have the potential for sapience in the wild because it makes sense. Ash's Roggenrola for example going to humans and asking for help, and easily able to strategize and defeat both Oshawott and Tepig.

So I think you're just not giving enough credit to the actual Pokemon. They are very intelligent and sapient creatures, being caught at best only enhances those traits that they already possess.

 

[Misty-Moo]

@dman_dustin, I have edited and resorted your post to construct my response

I think you're just not giving enough credit to the actual Pokemon. They are very intelligent and sapient creatures, being caught at best only enhances those traits that they already possess.

Actually, I am, that's one of the key points behind my theory - Pancham's Trainer wasn't interested in performances whereas Pancham was and this is what caused the conflict between them / was at the root of their separation.
I'm not only assuming that Pancham has a higher level of awareness than a normal animal, it also has its own character and interests.
Rather than simply being a tool for its Trainer, Pancham stayed true to itself and this caused them both to finally part ways.

It would make sense for Pancham to be looking around, probably for food or to steal things (as Pancham was known to do), and come across Pokemon Showcases, and become interested in it.

The searching for food thing is a given and I agree with that, but I believe you have the second point backwards - it's not "Pancham was stealing things and got interested in performances", it's "Pancham was interested in performances and decided to steal accessories".

It also liked to take things that didn't belong to it, such as Ash's hat and Clemont's glasses. All of these things could easily indicate a normal sapient level intelligence for a wild Pokemon.

But rather than stealing character's things simply to annoy the character (Mankey) or to be mischievous (Aipom) - both of which are also examples of Pokemon having a level of intelligence above that of an animal - Pancham stole Ash's hat and Clemont's glasses because it thought they would look good together. Why did Pancham steal those specific things, rather than Serena's hat, for example? Or one of their bags, which I assume contain food, as they contain the character's camping supplies.

Also, in respect to your and everyone else's argument regarding the way Pokemon learn moves in the anime, ie. Pokemon learn them either spontaneously or by observation, Pancham would have to have observed other Pokemon (whether they were under the direction of Trainers or not) using those moves and decided to learn them for a specific reason, ie. Pancham thought they would make good performance moves.

Another thing is that Pancham is a rural Pokemon, they live in bamboo forests, not in an urban environment such as where it was discovered.

 

[ii kanji]

@ dman - I don't think Nyasu is really a fair comparison to any pokemon, let alone this situation. He's clearly an exception to the rule and always has been. There is no evidence that he was able to engineer machines before he joined up with Musashi and Kojiro and the TRioMeets! Hoso arguably demonstrates that he originally was not anywhere near as human-like-efficient then as he is now.

I also dispute that the actual mechanism of capture is what instils these behaviours. Nyasu may technically be wild (has it ever been officially confirmed? I always forget), but he lives 24/7 with humans and is treated as a human by them.

 

[dman_dustin]

The searching for food thing is a given and I agree with that, but I believe you have the second point backwards - it's not "Pancham was stealing things and got interested in performances", it's "Pancham was interested in performances and decided to steal accessories".

True, it could've started stealing things after seeing performances, but who knows, Pancham may have stolen "non accessory" items before finding that those accessory items.

I mean if all you do is "steal" food and you see something flashy and shiny, you may gravitate towards it and steal it more often. But I don't know, it could've grown to steal things, I guess.

Pancham stole Ash's hat and Clemont's glasses because it thought they would look good together. Why did Pancham steal those specific things, rather than Serena's hat, for example? Or one of their bags, which I assume contain food, as they contain the character's camping supplies.

Well it seems looking at the images, maybe Pancham stole them for a specific goal, but also did it to annoy those particular characters. Such as Pancham stealing Chespin's stick and then mocking them, as well as mocking Ash and Clemont after taking their items, which goes beyond of just wanting them for performances, which seems as Serena was watching Pancham as an afterthought rather than the primary reason. Plus on top of that they were definitely easier to steal, then the bags Clemont and Ash were carrying.

Also some of the items, were too random to be considered part of performing.

Also, in respect to your and everyone else's argument regarding the way Pokemon learn moves in the anime, ie. Pokemon learn them either spontaneously or by observation, Pancham would have to have observed other Pokemon (whether they were under the direction of Trainers or not) using those moves and decided to learn them for a specific reason, ie. Pancham thought they would make good performance moves.

Not necessarily at least not in the way you're implying it to be.

Sure Pancham might have been fascinated by uses of Dark Pulse, and Stone edge in Pokemon showcases to want to learn and use them. But at the same time, I don't it extended to it thought they were good moves for usage in a Pokemon showcases, because that might have been outside of Pancham's expertise (if we assume its wild), it clearly was fascinated by things of what seemed to be of its own merit, and could easily have chosen these moves because it appealed to it in some instinctual way.

Kind of like when humans see a video of something and are touched by it, in instances that have no explanation for why they were touched by it.

It could've just thought Dark Pulse and Stone Edge looked like cool moves and tried to emulate them, I mean after all there was always the potential for failure if Pancham COULD NOT use those moves like Pancham trying to use draco meteor.

Another thing is that Pancham is a rural Pokemon, they live in bamboo forests, not in an urban environment such as where it was discovered.

I've stopped believing in where Pokemon can be found as the anime has been always inconsistent with this. As far as I am concerned they can be found everywhere. Real Life animals migrate to new environments if their previous environments do not supply their needs of survival. Given that there was at least a forest at Pancham's habitat NEAR the town/city with the Pokemon showcase, I can see why Pancham was found there. It's not like the forest needs to be miles from human habitation.

@ dman - I don't think Nyasu is really a fair comparison to any pokemon, let alone this situation. He's clearly an exception to the rule and always has been. There is no evidence that he was able to engineer machines before he joined up with Musashi and Kojiro and the TRioMeets! Hoso arguably demonstrates that he originally was not anywhere near as human-like-efficient then as he is now.

The issue however is that this proves the sapience of Pokemon. Even though it was exposed to humans, it wasn't a matter of just seeing a human build a robot, and basically "ape" them like some real life animals.

Meowth has shown that it understands what it is doing, almost as if it is human. Which is my whole entire point. Some Pokemon are just that intelligent, and maybe even some Pokemon sacrifice their ability to be "Pokemon" to be more like humans, like Meowth said.

I also dispute that the actual mechanism of capture is what instils these behaviours. Nyasu may technically be wild (has it ever been officially confirmed? I always forget), but he lives 24/7 with humans and is treated as a human by them.

Not sure what you mean here, as I said Meowth does have the advantage of being around humans 24/7. But everything Meowth knows or does, was because Meowth CHOSE to those things, he wasn't taught by a human to be human, he chose to be more human like as HIS choice.

My point was, wild Pokemon are not merely instinctual creatures with little no sapience, and only gain sapience upon being caught. They have sapience, and perhaps that sapience may increase when they are there, or perhaps they are exposed more to the way of humans so bascially:

I would assume a caught Pokemon, and wild Pokemon that interacts with humans of equal quantity and quality would have the same amount of sapience.

My point was more along the lines is being caught brings the human equation into the picture, and perhaps the Poke ball also enhances the natural sapient levels of "certain" Pokemon that may not be as gifted, but just being around humans clearly raises the sapient levels of Pokemon or maybe I'm wrong here, and actually they all have the same level of sapience, but when exposed to humans perhaps they exercise that sapience to its fullest extent, because they are thrust in situations that they are normally not in, and learn to adapt to the new situations and environments.

 

[ii kanji]

Dman I appreciate your point now. I guess I'm not sure there's any solid evidence to prove Yancham has a past worth exploring but I'd love it if the lil' panda did! Horubee (a pokemon I had literally 0 expectations of when the series began) has had some great exposure recently and I'd love the same of Yancham.