Sexism in the Pokemon anime

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Recently discussion about the treatment of female companions has flared up a bit, so I'm making this for those discussions.

 

[Mr. MoonStone]

Just as I mentioned in the previous thread, I think they do get the short end of the stick sometimes. The anime (and games) has gotten better about this over the years, but you still encounter some of those tropes from time to time. Koharu/Chloe not being a lead is still extremely questionable imo and contributes to that not-so-uncommon perception about the anime.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

Even if dated, it is quite problematic, and again, from a company perspective and as working adult I would absolutely side-eye this lmao

Well, of course it is problematic. It's just that it is only one person's opinion from over a decade ago.

Brock didn't need to be in the DP story arc, is it completely unreasonable and unrealistic to not introduce another male traveling companion that is active in contests as a foil to May's character from the previous season? Why did we need to drop may in the first place to move onto Sinnoh. For me, personally, it just doesn't make sense to have continued dropping female characters like that at the time.

This looks like more a writing issue rather than a sexism issue. May already completed her story arc so what exactly would she be doing in Sinnoh anyway? Especially since her character was used as marketing for the games(as she was the female game protagonist) and was replaced for largely the same reason: marketing. No, not in regards to female or male audiences-but rather as promotion for the games. This is hardly a sexism issue.

Why not have him undergo different challenges to better understand his bond with Pokemon and use contests as a backdrop for that? He already changes his goal in the series anyways, nothing is stopping the writers from saying, hey maybe Brock wants to do contests instead? And I'm highlighting this again because there's no reason Ash couldn't travel with a female companion whose goal was beating the battle Frontier, or hunting for a specific legendary, or something else. The anime possibilities are truly limitless, they really don't have to stick with certain tropes.

Maybe because it makes more sense to have Brock go from being a Pokemon Breeder to a doctor as those are at least loosely connected and have logical justification. Why not just give him more challenges period? And, again, this is a writing issue-not a sexist one.

As for giving a female character a different goal aside from "certain tropes"...they did do that. At the time you are referencing, the only one who had done contests at that point was May and Dawn was the second. Iris had an entirely different goal. Serena's was already explained as arguably more sexist with how many stereotypes are present and how it is all-female. Mallow, Lana, and Lillie all had entirely different character motivations and goals. Bonnie was a fourth wheel like Max(and was actually far better done in terms of focus). Chloe's goal is quite literally at this time trying to FIND her goal. Misty's goal was also different. What tropes are you speaking of here?

Koharu/Chloe not being a lead is still extremely questionable imo and contributes to that not-so-uncommon perception about the anime.

A female lead is not a requirement. If that "requirement" is not met it does not equate to being sexist.

 

[Puddle]

A female lead is not a requirement. If that "requirement" is not met it does not equate to being sexist.

It might not be sexist, but it does send a message that Pokemon Journeys is a boys' show. Which strikes me as odd, because the franchise has been aimed at both boys and girls ever since the release of Pokemon Crystal.

I think Goh should have been a girl with an Eevee as her partner, to make her like a counterpart to Ash.

 

[Mr. MoonStone]

Well, of course it is problematic. It's just that it is only one person's opinion from over a decade ago.

I mean, it still matters in the discussion of sexism in the anime. If a director is comfortable enough sharing that information publicly without repercussions from OLM, what sort of things are being shared internally or behind closed doors? It's not even the main point of my argument, but I don't think it's fair to downplay that statement when viewpoints like that could potentially contribute to the output of the product. Of course it was years ago, but in the context of the past treatment of female characters, it still matters.

This looks like more a writing issue rather than a sexism issue. May already completed her story arc so what exactly would she be doing in Sinnoh anyway? Especially since her character was used as marketing for the games(as she was the female game protagonist) and was replaced for largely the same reason: marketing. No, not in regards to female or male audiences-but rather as promotion for the games. This is hardly a sexism issue.

Didn't she go on to challenge another contest? Why couldn't that contest be in Sinnoh? I absolutely agree that marketing plays a role in which characters appear, but what was the marketing decision to keeping Brock? Was he really more popular than a newer game character to warrant keeping him for almost another decade over his original generation? I think poor-writing plays a role as well, but that doesn't justify having two female MCs being written off one after another.

Maybe because it makes more sense to have Brock go from being a Pokemon Breeder to a doctor as those are at least loosely connected and have logical justification. Why not just give him more challenges period? And, again, this is a writing issue-not a sexist one.

Again, this was just an example. I don't disagree that writing had a hand in this.

As for giving a female character a different goal aside from "certain tropes"...they did do that. At the time you are referencing, the only one who had done contests at that point was May and Dawn was the second. Iris had an entirely different goal. Serena's was already explained as arguably more sexist with how many stereotypes are present and how it is all-female. Mallow, Lana, and Lillie all had entirely different character motivations and goals. Bonnie was a fourth wheel like Max(and was actually far better done in terms of focus). Chloe's goal is quite literally at this time trying to FIND her goal. Misty's goal was also different. What tropes are you speaking of here?

The goals are not the only issues with the treatment of female characters. I noticed in the other thread that contests seemed to jump out to a lot of people since we saw male characters regularly compete in them (Ash even had a hand in one) in the anime. I probably didn't word that the best since it seems like my point was going in a different direction. My issue with contests was why the female characters were only relegated to those competitions. In an alternate D/P series, is it simply mindbogglingly impossible to think that the anime introduced Dawn to take part in a battle tournament and Lucas take on contests (or some other character)? That's my personal gripe is all.

As for Serena, I already went in detail about her treatment. When people talk about sexism in the Pokemon anime they always bring her up. We seem to be on a similar page about this so I think we can move past that unless there is something else? We can talk about 3rd wave feminism and "recapturing the male gaze" and how Serena isn't actually sexist as a character if you'd like. I think she may be one of the cases where the anime did her the most dirty lol.

I haven't watched all of Sun/Moon so I can't really comment too much on them.

A female lead is not a requirement. If that "requirement" is not met it does not equate to being sexist.

It's not a requirement at all, but it sets a bad precedent for younger female viewers. We're in 2021.

 

[J Bouken]

More so than past characters, this is an issue that really centres on Journeys and its choice to have Goh co-star with Ash while Chloe plays second fiddle. It highlights the role female characters play in Pokemon and its appeal to a broader audience.

To be more specific, having Ash and Goh go on all the adventures while Chloe goes to school or stays at home could unintentionally send the wrong message that Pokemon is a boys activity. I say unintentionally because the theming around her character and the arc they've set-up for her has been all about not rushing into decisions about your future and taking your time to experience many things, which is a non-gender specific issue. Boys and girls can learn from this.

However, things do get more interesting when viewed through a gender-specific lens. That the girl in the cast is being told there are countless possibilities open to her is significant in the context of Japan's gradually changing gender roles; that the idea of women being stay-at-home wives with very narrow career prospects is actually starting to shift. As a girl growing up in Japan, it could be valuable to hear that you actually have a lot of possibilities in your future and you're not limited to what other people tell you or expect of you, just as Chloe doesn't have to become a Pokemon expert just because her dad is a professor.

Looking at it this way, her gradual introduction to being a Pokemon trainer reinforces that message. She doesn't have to be as into Pokemon as Ash and Goh are. She doesn't have to jump at every opportunity that comes her way. If you were to swap her role with Goh, the message might not come across as strong. And making her a go-getter who bucks the trend from the start might send the wrong message, especially since almost every female lead before her has already fulfilled this role.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I'm fairly certain this was from the time of the Hoenn episodes as the comment was in context of why Misty was removed. Even if dated, it is quite problematic, and again, from a company perspective and as working adult I would absolutely side-eye this lmao

I agree that referring to female leads as eye candy is problematic, but I don't know how much weight that kind of mindset currently has in regards to the anime. The comment was made by one person over a decade ago and I don't think he was working on the anime anymore by the time he was interviewed. It doesn't make that kind of comment okay. It is questionable at best, but it may not reflect how the staff feels about female leads now or why only they were removed from the cast permanently until BW.

Personally, i don't think either Misty nor Brock needed to be written off of the show in the first place as I felt neither story had much closure in the first place, but that's probably more appropriate for a different thread lol, but my point is why the female character had to be removed anyways? I get that there is a running excuse that mostly boys watch Pokemon and that they can't bond with female characters as much as male ones and may have been the justification for her removal as opposed to Brock, but I think that's rather lazy tbh. I think the writing of the character and how they're portrayed in certain scenarios is much more impactful imo.

If I recall correctly, I think that the justification for Misty's removal was that she had the weakest reason for being in the main cast. I think there were some translations of some comments from the original series director's website. They decided to change the cast for AG to shake things up. It came down to removing either Team Rocket or Misty and they chose Misty. I believe it went something like that at least. Personally, I think that they made the better choice, but I was never that into Misty to begin with. They could have done more with Misty, but I think it was better to introduce new female leads since that allowed the writers to explore more with Contests than they ever could have with Misty.

I'm...not arguing that contests are sexist though; rather pointing out that, once again, female characters are shafted to that role. Brock didn't need to be in the DP story arc, is it completely unreasonable and unrealistic to not introduce another male traveling companion that is active in contests as a foil to May's character from the previous season? Why did we need to drop may in the first place to move onto Sinnoh. For me, personally, it just doesn't make sense to have continued dropping female characters like that at the time.

It's hard for me to see female characters are shafted to the role as Coordinators when Contests weren't really treated like that in either AG or DP. DP Contests in particular were put on the same level as importance as Ash's Gym badge quest. Contests weren't treated as something lesser just because it was to appeal to girls or only the female leads took part in it among the main cast. It was just another means of trainers connecting with their Pokemon through art and battle. I disagree that Brock didn't need to be in the DP series. I know that it's a common complaint that he stuck around for too long, but I don't think any other character could have taken his role with the Legendary Lake Trio. Not to mention his medicine knowledge helped Dawn to gain Mamoswine's trust. He didn't get as much attention as Ash and Dawn did in DP, but to say that he was completely unnecessary doesn't sit right with me.

I don't think it would have been unreasonable or unrealistic to introduce a male Coordinator in the main cast, but rather it would just be unnecessary. Why bother doing that when there were still noteworthy male Coordinators in both AG and DP? I thought that May's removal from the cast made sense. She had spent so much time with Ash that her battling style was too much like his and she needed to go off to train on her own in order to find her own way to battle. There was buildup for it during the last stretch of AG, which is more than I can say for Misty's departure, and I remember people pointing out that she won a lot of her Contests by knocking out her opponents instead of just winning through the point system. Besides that, May and her team represented the third generation games. They could have given her a Sinnoh starter given that she got some Kanto starters for some FR/LG promotion, but it made more sense for them to start over with a new Coordinator to more firmly tie in with the then new D/P games.

I mentioned Brock as an example because he infamously did very little on-screen in terms of actively pursuing his goal as a Pokemon breeder (and then eventually doctor, I think?). Why not have him undergo different challenges to better understand his bond with Pokemon and use contests as a backdrop for that? He already changes his goal in the series anyways, nothing is stopping the writers from saying, hey maybe Brock wants to do contests instead? And I'm highlighting this again because there's no reason Ash couldn't travel with a female companion whose goal was beating the battle Frontier, or hunting for a specific legendary, or something else. The anime possibilities are truly limitless, they really don't have to stick with certain tropes.

To be fair, he didn't actually decide on being a Pokemon Doctor until the last episode of DP, so there was no way he could have done more on-screen to pursue that goal. I don't think making Brock a Coordinator could have worked mainly because Contests are still ultimately about Pokemon battles. There is still the importance of showing off the appeal and beauty of Pokemon's moves, but you still need to battle in order to get a ribbon. Brock can battle well, but it wasn't something he was interested in from the start, so making him into a Coordinator just wouldn't have really worked from a character perspective. He only took part in one Contest in the Battle Frontier arc and that was mainly due to his gag crushing on another character of the week.

As cool as it would for a female lead to aim towards beating the Battle Frontier, it would have been hard to explain why Ash wasn't doing that as well. Ash took part in Contests a few times, but his battle style didn't lend itself well into Contest battles, especially when he would be aiming more towards defeating his opponents rather than making effective appeals. Having Ash and the new female lead taking part in the same goal wouldn't be a good option either. It would just make battles take at least twice as long since two characters would need to get the next Symbol before moving on ahead to the next one. Hunting for a specific Legendary Pokemon would be cool, but that also runs into another issue that the anime tends to have. The battle active goals with specific structure, ie Gym badge quests and Contests, tend to work better than something more vague like a Water/Dragon Pokemon Master. Granted, I think stuff like Pokemon Showcases, the Island Challenge and the PWC makes me question that notion a bit, but I generally think that having a goal where the female lead has to work towards getting something like Ribbons frequently is better than the other non-competition based goals they've used thus far.

But WHY does it have to be female-only? The issue isn't that she likes girly things or that she had feelings for Ash or that her Pokemon were cute; those all been valid character-traits. It's that in the context of the others in a battle-oriented series, she gets shafted into another position of that reeks of sexism. And even then, if the anime wants to do a female-only competition, why does it have to involve baking and fashion and whatnot? The Battle Maison was right there in the game, if handled well it could've easily been retconned into something else that didn't completely stick to those tropes.

I think a lot of fans have compared Showcases to Japanese Idols, which would explain a few things if that was what they were going for and why they wanted it to be female only. As much as I don't like Showcases, I don't think I'd say that Serena was shafted into them exactly. They were kind of in a tight spot where they didn't have something like Contests in X/Y to adapt into the anime. The Battle Maison could have been an interesting take on what is usually just a Battle Tower, but I can see why they didn't go that route. Much like with the Battle Frontier example you brought up, I don't know how they could explain why Ash wasn't also taking part in the Battle Maison to battle the Battle Chatelaines alongside Serena.

 

[Mr. MoonStone]

I agree that referring to female leads as eye candy is problematic, but I don't know how much weight that kind of mindset currently has in regards to the anime. The comment was made by one person over a decade ago and I don't think he was working on the anime anymore by the time he was interviewed. It doesn't make that kind of comment okay. It is questionable at best, but it may not reflect how the staff feels about female leads now or why only they were removed from the cast permanently until BW.

Since this comment was brought in from the other thread, I just want to point out that I mentioned this because we were talking about past instances of possible sexism, not necessarily that this mindset is currently affecting the anime.

It's hard for me to see female characters are shafted to the role as Coordinators when Contests weren't really treated like that in either AG or DP. DP Contests in particular were put on the same level as importance as Ash's Gym badge quest. Contests weren't treated as something lesser just because it was to appeal to girls or only the female leads took part in it among the main cast. It was just another means of trainers connecting with their Pokemon through art and battle. I disagree that Brock didn't need to be in the DP series. I know that it's a common complaint that he stuck around for too long, but I don't think any other character could have taken his role with the Legendary Lake Trio. Not to mention his medicine knowledge helped Dawn to gain Mamoswine's trust. He didn't get as much attention as Ash and Dawn did in DP, but to say that he was completely unnecessary doesn't sit right with me.

It's not an issue that female characters are coordinators; rather that at that time the anime presented female traveling companions as only coordinators in contests. Again, as I have repeatedly reiterated in past comments, contests are not sexist. Actually, the anime actually does a better job portraying contests imo. It's the context of two separate female MCs only taking part in contests for 8 years straight when other potential alternatives in a battle-focused anime exists.

I don't think it would have been unreasonable or unrealistic to introduce a male Coordinator in the main cast, but rather it would just be unnecessary.

Hard disagree. What compelling reason can be given to justify why the Dawn had to do contests when she was introduced in the D/P anime as opposed to another male protagonist? Again, it's not the issue of contests themselves but that female protagonist took part in this type of competition for the second time in a row. That's all.

As cool as it would for a female lead to aim towards beating the Battle Frontier, it would have been hard to explain why Ash wasn't doing that as well. Ash took part in Contests a few times, but his battle style didn't lend itself well into Contest battles, especially when he would be aiming more towards defeating his opponents rather than making effective appeals. Having Ash and the new female lead taking part in the same goal wouldn't be a good option either. It would just make battles take at least twice as long since two characters would need to get the next Symbol before moving on ahead to the next one. Hunting for a specific Legendary Pokemon would be cool, but that also runs into another issue that the anime tends to have. The battle active goals with specific structure, ie Gym badge quests and Contests, tend to work better than something more vague like a Water/Dragon Pokemon Master. Granted, I think stuff like Pokemon Showcases, the Island Challenge and the PWC makes me question that notion a bit, but I generally think that having a goal where the female lead has to work towards getting something like Ribbons frequently is better than the other non-competition based goals they've used thus far.

It would require some work, but there could be anime-specific justifications for why the Sinnoh-based protagonist was taking on the BF while Ash did the gyms. I don't really think it matters for this type of thread, but my point was that female protagonists can have battle heavy story arcs as well outside of contests. We saw some of this with Iris in BW, but I wish that element was introduced sooner to the anime franchise. And adding to your dragon/water Pokemon master comment, why can't those goals be accomplished with battle-heavy tournaments? The Whirl Cup existed in Johto, why not extend that into an ongoing piece for one region? Warmer settings like Hoenn and Alola could've been cool to see those in.

I think a lot of fans have compared Showcases to Japanese Idols, which would explain a few things if that was what they were going for and why they wanted it to be female only. As much as I don't like Showcases, I don't think I'd say that Serena was shafted into them exactly. They were kind of in a tight spot where they didn't have something like Contests in X/Y to adapt into the anime. The Battle Maison could have been an interesting take on what is usually just a Battle Tower, but I can see why they didn't go that route. Much like with the Battle Frontier example you brought up, I don't know how they could explain why Ash wasn't also taking part in the Battle Maison to battle the Battle Chatelaines alongside Serena.

I don't disagree with the notion that Showcases likely were based on the kind of Idol competitions you see in East Asia, but still, the handling of that was off. I think the Battle Maison could have still worked as a MC goal if the concept of the tournament was altered (which is possible to do, I still fail to see why creative liberties have to stop when it comes to fleshing out these sort of things for the show). The justification for this competition could in fact be that only female or rookie trainers were allowed to participate, which could justify Serena's participation and not Ash's. Stretching the limits here but I don't think it's impossible to be done, especially since the anime has been changing in formula over the past decade anyways.

 

[Mr. MoonStone]

I do want to point out though that prior to Journeys, most of my personal criticisms have been in the first decade of the anime. I didn't watch enough of Sun of Moon to add to that discussion and since it wasn't really a battle-heavy anime I don't think those kinds of criticisms would've been valid anyways since most of the cast wasn't taking part in battle tournaments outside of the League arc I believe?

I was just more shocked that Journeys straight up removed female leads altogether. I'm still interested in hearing what sort of justification there is for not including a girl as the other protagonist.

 

[ii kanji]

As with the endless racism discussion, there is no doubt in my mind that there is a vein of sexism running through the show. It is not so apparent in the actual body of the work, but in terms of the meta? 100%. For me the most obvious example of this is the absolute lack of serious female rivals for Satoshi/successful women at the League.

I also agree that the absence of a female main character who, critically, appears in every episode sends a strong message that the producers of the show are not interested in targeting a female audience.

Sorry can’t write more atm as at work, but this has been very interesting to read! Lots of good points raised by all.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

It's the context of two separate female MCs only taking part in contests for 8 years straight when other potential alternatives in a battle-focused anime exists.

I'm sorry, I still don't see how that is sexist. And Pokemon is mainly focused on the adventure-just because two female characters have non battle focused goals(at this time, as you are saying)doesn't make it sexist.

Again, it's not the issue of contests themselves but that female protagonist took part in this type of competition for the second time in a row.

...twice in a row is a coincidence. How is that an issue?

but my point was that female protagonists can have battle heavy story arcs as well outside of contests

Yes, but why do they NEED to? If you are still speaking of the anime in the old days, then it still only boils down to two girls with the same goal. That's it. That is where the similarities end.

 

[Mr. MoonStone]

As with the endless racism discussion, there is no doubt in my mind that there is a vein of sexism running through the show. It is not so apparent in the actual body of the work, but in terms of the meta? 100%. For me the most obvious example of this is the absolute lack of serious female rivals for Satoshi/successful women at the League.

I also agree that the absence of a female main character who, critically, appears in every episode sends a strong message that the producers of the show are not interested in targeting a female audience.

Sorry can’t write more atm as at work, but this has been very interesting to read! Lots of good points raised by all.

These are probably the strongest arguments for sexism in the anime, so thanks for reiterating! Everyone seems to be caught up with my comments about contests, which I still admit weren't the best explained, but the lack of female rivals, successful league counterparts, and (now) main protagonists are far more glaring imo. I'm also curious about the defense for these choices because I truly can't think of any lol.

 

[Mr. MoonStone]

I'm sorry, I still don't see how that is sexist. And Pokemon is mainly focused on the adventure-just because two female characters have non battle focused goals(at this time, as you are saying)doesn't make it sexist.


...twice in a row is a coincidence. How is that an issue?



Yes, but why do they NEED to? If you are still speaking of the anime in the old days, then it still only boils down to two girls with the same goal. That's it. That is where the similarities end.

I feel like I'm going in circles so I'm just going to summate my stance by pointing out that those aspects alone don't necessarily make the show sexist, and that my overall argument is not that the show is inherently sexist either. Rather, when you consider those factors along with the context of the anime, it can definitely be perceived that way. Everyone is focusing on the idea of contests and battle-goals, which is understandable, but, to be quite frank, there are more glaring issues mentioned in this thread (and in my original post in the controversial opinions thread as well).

What is your justification for the lack of serious female rivals for Ash that are also taking on the league? Why has he never had that iconic decisive match with a female rival at a regional Pokémon league tournament after nearly 25 years? I don't think the excuse that this anime is treated like a battle-shonen series and it follows the genre to a T is a strong enough point, so I'm curious to hear what your perspective is on this?

 

[Hidden Mew]

It's not an issue that female characters are coordinators; rather that at that time the anime presented female traveling companions as only coordinators in contests. Again, as I have repeatedly reiterated in past comments, contests are not sexist. Actually, the anime actually does a better job portraying contests imo. It's the context of two separate female MCs only taking part in contests for 8 years straight when other potential alternatives in a battle-focused anime exists.

I honestly don't really see the problem of having two female leads taking part in Contests for eight years. It provided a different kind of battling in the anime, allowed the female leads to shine more than they had before when it was just Misty and both May and Dawn's storylines were quite different. They didn't just phone it in for Dawn just because she was another Coordinator. If anything, Dawn really benefited from being the second Coordinator since the writers had a better idea of how to make Contests more distinct from regular battles..

I'm less confident that there were other potential alternatives for them to go with. Or to be more accurate, I'm less confident that any potential alternatives would have been better than Contests were. This is mainly due to how the female leads before and after them were handled. Both Misty and Iris are into regular battling, but I don't think that their storylines were handled better or were more interesting just because they weren't Coordinators. Contests gave both May and Dawn some much needed structure for their goals and they required consistent focus to work towards those goals. Contests weren't absolutely flawless. The point system in particular was inconsistent at times and they really didn't have a good grasp on what to do with Contests until DP, but they are thus far the best goal any female lead has had. I still feel like the anime lost something important when they had to stop doing Contests, especially when they've yet to find any other competition or goal that is as engaging as Contests were. That's a big reason why I don't see the problem with having two female Coordinators in a row.

Hard disagree. What compelling reason can be given to justify why the Dawn had to do contests when she was introduced in the D/P anime as opposed to another male protagonist? Again, it's not the issue of contests themselves but that female protagonist took part in this type of competition for the second time in a row. That's all.

Well there wasn't really anything else Dawn could have really done in Sinnoh if she wasn't taking part in Contests. I can't really think of anything else she could have done at least. The reason I said that having a male Coordinator in the main cast would be unnecessary was because Dawn already had Kenny and Nando as male rivals. They didn't really need to make Lucas the Coordinator in the cast just to emphasize that guys could be Coordinators too. They had rivals and one-shot characters for that. That and I don't see the problem with having two girls in a row being Coordinators.

It would require some work, but there could be anime-specific justifications for why the Sinnoh-based protagonist was taking on the BF while Ash did the gyms. I don't really think it matters for this type of thread, but my point was that female protagonists can have battle heavy story arcs as well outside of contests. We saw some of this with Iris in BW, but I wish that element was introduced sooner to the anime franchise. And adding to your dragon/water Pokemon master comment, why can't those goals be accomplished with battle-heavy tournaments? The Whirl Cup existed in Johto, why not extend that into an ongoing piece for one region? Warmer settings like Hoenn and Alola could've been cool to see those in.

As cool as the idea of Dawn going into the Sinnoh Battle Frontier sounds, I think it would have been harder, or at least requires more work than necessary, to justify why Ash wasn't doing that as well. It's just easier to say and show that Ash isn't cut out for Contest battles because it requires skills outside of his wheelhouse. Female leads having battle heavy story arcs outside of Contests sound all well and good, but I don't think that it's a problem to have battle heavy story arcs within Contests either. I don't think that May and Dawn both being Coordinators really make their battle heavy story arcs lesser than if they weren't into Contests.

Iris is a prime example as to why I don't think the insert Pokemon type master concept works. She should have been battling more often and gradually becoming stronger over the course of BW, but she really wasn't. Her goal lacked the structure and consistent focus that Contest provided for May and Dawn. I don't think that was the only reason why I didn't find the writing around Iris compelling, but the lack of any structure for her goal or really anything to work towards beyond the vagueness of being a Dragon Master in training didn't help. I do think that these kind of goals could work with battle heavy tournaments. If stuff like the Whirl Cup happened throughout the original series, that could have given Misty something to work towards. Having Dragon tournaments or at least something more concrete for Iris to work towards during BW could have helped a lot too. The fact that they were seemingly more interested in making Iris into this gifted trainer out of nowhere instead of working towards becoming a stronger trainer through tournaments is rather telling for me. Creating tournaments specifically for the female leads could be great, but I don't think that they were interested in doing so for a few reasons. I think that this is more of a general writing problem rather than something necessarily sexist though, especially when a good portion of the secondary male trainers aren't really battle active either.

I don't disagree with the notion that Showcases likely were based on the kind of Idol competitions you see in East Asia, but still, the handling of that was off. I think the Battle Maison could have still worked as a MC goal if the concept of the tournament was altered (which is possible to do, I still fail to see why creative liberties have to stop when it comes to fleshing out these sort of things for the show). The justification for this competition could in fact be that only female or rookie trainers were allowed to participate, which could justify Serena's participation and not Ash's. Stretching the limits here but I don't think it's impossible to be done, especially since the anime has been changing in formula over the past decade anyways.

I agree that the handling of Showcases was pretty bad. Not only with the competition itself, but the characters kept making it sound like getting three Princess Keys required hard work when nothing shown in XY gave the impression that being a Pokemon Performer was really that hard. It was a glorified popularity contest. That being said, I honestly forgot that the Battle Maison even existed, but I also haven't played X/Y in ages anyway. If they had make it akin to Contest Halls with a Battle Chatelaine available at different locations, maybe that could have worked, even though I think making it a battle competition for only female trainers still would have felt like an odd choice. Each new series tries out different concepts and ideas, so it wouldn't have been impossible to do. I'm just not as confident that they could have pulled it off effectively or if it would have made Serena's storyline better. As much as I hated Showcases, I really like Serena's character moments and I don't know if they could have done that if she was battling in the Battle Maison instead.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

I feel like I'm going in circles so I'm just going to summate my stance by pointing out that those aspects alone don't necessarily make the show sexist, and that my overall argument is not that the show is inherently sexist either. Rather, when you consider those factors along with the context of the anime, it can definitely be perceived that way. Everyone is focusing on the idea of contests and battle-goals, which is understandable, but, to be quite frank, there are more glaring issues mentioned in this thread (and in my original post in the controversial opinions thread as well)

Given that in your original post, you lead with : "And since you brought up the anime franchise as a whole, and this is the controversial opinions thread" I think it's fair that some might have misinterpreted your quote. My apologies for doing so, but I don't think my points are getting across either.

What is your justification for the lack of serious female rivals for Ash that are also taking on the league? Why has he never had that iconic decisive match with a female rival at a regional Pokémon league tournament after nearly 25 years? I don't think the excuse that this anime is treated like a battle-shonen series and it follows the genre to a T is a strong enough point, so I'm curious to hear what your perspective is on this?

I've never said I disagreed with you on any of those points? Actually, I believe when this debate started we found common ground on performances. I'll even go a step further because just as you say you never said the anime is sexist, I never said it isn't(specifically, certain parts).

• Pokemon: There is a notable lack of female pokemon on the main cast, which, no, I don't think is automatically sexist, but the same logic that applies to omitting a female lead from Journeys applies here as well. I especially would like to see Ash catch more female pokemon-or pokemon established as one with more supposed "feminine" traits. Yes, majority of his pokemon's genders are entirely unconfirmed, but there are many implications that many of them are male: I think it would be nice if they started establishing the genders of the pokemon more clearly. That way, there can be more variety, as people often forget that the pokemon are a part of the main cast as well.
• Princess vs. Princess: 100% the fault of the dubbing. I'm not sure why they covered up a foreign holiday(within an anime...from the place in which said holiday originates...)to replace it with what some might conceive as a really sexist episode. Misty has been shown to have more of a softer side to her, yes, but she's largely regarded as a "tomboy". It feels a little jarring that she would be so eager and aggressive with shopping and this further applies to Jessie and it makes much more sense in the original Japanese.
• Performances: This has already been explained to some degree, so I won't go too deep into it so it's not repetitive, but this was a big screw up on the writers part as well-and not JUST in terms of sexism. If the Pokemon Performances were only focused on, you know, the performance, it wouldn't be too big of an issue. If right from the get go, when Performance lore is introduced, it is explained in a throwaway line of some sort that whoever wins can become either a "Kalos King" or "Kalos Queen", it would lead to more diversity. But the fact that its female only and many of the mini competitions WITHIN these performances are largely related to stereotypes associated with women in general just sends off really weird messages. That, and, it's a weird writing decision because not only do those mini performances make no sense or have zero impact on the narrative, they are also largely in Serena's favor from the get-go(e.g baking, fashion, the rhyhorn incident). But writing's for another thread, so, moving on-
• Battling: It's really nice to see how many of Ash's rivals in Journeys are girls. Too bad this mainly happens in the series that is largely regarded as the worst in terms of narrative... I really liked Bianca, and it was rather upsetting to see that they didn't do much else with her as a rival. She also felt poorly written, which doesn't give her any points and the fact that before Journeys, she was the only active "rival" that is a GIRL is rather WEIRD. Instead of creating an anime-only, knock-off Paul, poorly developed character like Trip as a rival...why didn't they market the games by using one of the BW female protagonists/rivals with already pre-established personalities and in-story connections?

 

[Mr. MoonStone]

I honestly don't really see the problem of having two female leads taking part in Contests for eight years. It provided a different kind of battling in the anime, allowed the female leads to shine more than they had before when it was just Misty and both May and Dawn's storylines were quite different. They didn't just phone it in for Dawn just because she was another Coordinator. If anything, Dawn really benefited from being the second Coordinator since the writers had a better idea of how to make Contests more distinct from regular battles..

I'm less confident that there were other potential alternatives for them to go with. Or to be more accurate, I'm less confident that any potential alternatives would have been better than Contests were. This is mainly due to how the female leads before and after them were handled. Both Misty and Iris are into regular battling, but I don't think that their storylines were handled better or were more interesting just because they weren't Coordinators. Contests gave both May and Dawn some much needed structure for their goals and they required consistent focus to work towards those goals. Contests weren't absolutely flawless. The point system in particular was inconsistent at times and they really didn't have a good grasp on what to do with Contests until DP, but they are thus far the best goal any female lead has had. I still feel like the anime lost something important when they had to stop doing Contests, especially when they've yet to find any other competition or goal that is as engaging as Contests were. That's a big reason why I don't see the problem with having two female Coordinators in a row.



Well there wasn't really anything else Dawn could have really done in Sinnoh if she wasn't taking part in Contests. I can't really think of anything else she could have done at least. The reason I said that having a male Coordinator in the main cast would be unnecessary was because Dawn already had Kenny and Nando as male rivals. They didn't really need to make Lucas the Coordinator in the cast just to emphasize that guys could be Coordinators too. They had rivals and one-shot characters for that. That and I don't see the problem with having two girls in a row being Coordinators.



As cool as the idea of Dawn going into the Sinnoh Battle Frontier sounds, I think it would have been harder, or at least requires more work than necessary, to justify why Ash wasn't doing that as well. It's just easier to say and show that Ash isn't cut out for Contest battles because it requires skills outside of his wheelhouse. Female leads having battle heavy story arcs outside of Contests sound all well and good, but I don't think that it's a problem to have battle heavy story arcs within Contests either. I don't think that May and Dawn both being Coordinators really make their battle heavy story arcs lesser than if they weren't into Contests.

Iris is a prime example as to why I don't think the insert Pokemon type master concept works. She should have been battling more often and gradually becoming stronger over the course of BW, but she really wasn't. Her goal lacked the structure and consistent focus that Contest provided for May and Dawn. I don't think that was the only reason why I didn't find the writing around Iris compelling, but the lack of any structure for her goal or really anything to work towards beyond the vagueness of being a Dragon Master in training didn't help. I do think that these kind of goals could work with battle heavy tournaments. If stuff like the Whirl Cup happened throughout the original series, that could have given Misty something to work towards. Having Dragon tournaments or at least something more concrete for Iris to work towards during BW could have helped a lot too. The fact that they were seemingly more interested in making Iris into this gifted trainer out of nowhere instead of working towards becoming a stronger trainer through tournaments is rather telling for me. Creating tournaments specifically for the female leads could be great, but I don't think that they were interested in doing so for a few reasons. I think that this is more of a general writing problem rather than something necessarily sexist though, especially when a good portion of the secondary male trainers aren't really battle active either.



I agree that the handling of Showcases was pretty bad. Not only with the competition itself, but the characters kept making it sound like getting three Princess Keys required hard work when nothing shown in XY gave the impression that being a Pokemon Performer was really that hard. It was a glorified popularity contest. That being said, I honestly forgot that the Battle Maison even existed, but I also haven't played X/Y in ages anyway. If they had make it akin to Contest Halls with a Battle Chatelaine available at different locations, maybe that could have worked, even though I think making it a battle competition for only female trainers still would have felt like an odd choice. Each new series tries out different concepts and ideas, so it wouldn't have been impossible to do. I'm just not as confident that they could have pulled it off effectively or if it would have made Serena's storyline better. As much as I hated Showcases, I really like Serena's character moments and I don't know if they could have done that if she was battling in the Battle Maison instead.

Fair enough! I think you make strong points for your argument and I see your perspective. Despite our opinions on some of the handling of female leads, I'm glad that we can both agree that the writing style has contributed some to their treatment, at least earlier in the series. I still contend that there were, more compelling (is this the word I'm looking for?), ways to approach Gen III and IV of the anime, which may have explained why I partially dropped the series until Platinum came out. However, I still think when you consider all of the components of the series we've discussed, the justification for sexism in the anime isn't completely left-field. Some of the arguments I've presented have even been echoed on this forum in the past, so I feel there is some justification for why this comes up.

 

[Mr. MoonStone]

Given that in your original post, you lead with : "And since you brought up the anime franchise as a whole, and this is the controversial opinions thread" I think it's fair that some might have misinterpreted your quote. My apologies for doing so, but I don't think my points are getting across either.


I've never said I disagreed with you on any of those points? Actually, I believe when this debate started we found common ground on performances. I'll even go a step further because just as you say you never said the anime is sexist, I never said it isn't(specifically, certain parts).

• Pokemon: There is a notable lack of female pokemon on the main cast, which, no, I don't think is automatically sexist, but the same logic that applies to omitting a female lead from Journeys applies here as well. I especially would like to see Ash catch more female pokemon-or pokemon established as one with more supposed "feminine" traits. Yes, majority of his pokemon's genders are entirely unconfirmed, but there are many implications that many of them are male: I think it would be nice if they started establishing the genders of the pokemon more clearly. That way, there can be more variety, as people often forget that the pokemon are a part of the main cast as well.
• Princess vs. Princess: 100% the fault of the dubbing. I'm not sure why they covered up a foreign holiday(within an anime...from the place in which said holiday originates...)to replace it with what some might conceive as a really sexist episode. Misty has been shown to have more of a softer side to her, yes, but she's largely regarded as a "tomboy". It feels a little jarring that she would be so eager and aggressive with shopping and this further applies to Jessie and it makes much more sense in the original Japanese.
• Performances: This has already been explained to some degree, so I won't go too deep into it so it's not repetitive, but this was a big screw up on the writers part as well-and not JUST in terms of sexism. If the Pokemon Performances were only focused on, you know, the performance, it wouldn't be too big of an issue. If right from the get go, when Performance lore is introduced, it is explained in a throwaway line of some sort that whoever wins can become either a "Kalos King" or "Kalos Queen", it would lead to more diversity. But the fact that its female only and many of the mini competitions WITHIN these performances are largely related to stereotypes associated with women in general just sends off really weird messages. That, and, it's a weird writing decision because not only do those mini performances make no sense or have zero impact on the narrative, they are also largely in Serena's favor from the get-go(e.g baking, fashion, the rhyhorn incident). But writing's for another thread, so, moving on-
• Battling: It's really nice to see how many of Ash's rivals in Journeys are girls. Too bad this mainly happens in the series that is largely regarded as the worst in terms of narrative... I really liked Bianca, and it was rather upsetting to see that they didn't do much else with her as a rival. She also felt poorly written, which doesn't give her any points and the fact that before Journeys, she was the only active "rival" that is a GIRL is rather WEIRD. Instead of creating an anime-only, knock-off Paul, poorly developed character like Trip as a rival...why didn't they market the games by using one of the BW female protagonists/rivals with already pre-established personalities and in-story connections?

I think there was a portion of confusion on my part so I apologize! Looking back on our past conversation, there are definitely shared beliefs between us regarding some of the poorer choices in the anime (I totally forgot about the Princess dub episode thank you for bringing that up again!) made by writers. As mentioned in my post to Hidden Mew, I absolutely think writing issues played a critical part in the way some characters have been handled. I think we still disagree about contests lol BUT I can see the glaring issues in my original sets of posts and how confusing they can be, so I apologize for that!
And may I add that Bianca was severely robbed of a potentially great character arc throughout BW, not just as a rival but as a person. I wish there were more substantial moments for her and she was treated much more seriously as a character. Her goofiness was, fine, but having Trip be the main rival for the series was such a misstep imo. Once again, thanks for bringing that up!

 

[Enzo]

As with the endless racism discussion, there is no doubt in my mind that there is a vein of sexism running through the show. It is not so apparent in the actual body of the work, but in terms of the meta? 100%. For me the most obvious example of this is the absolute lack of serious female rivals for Satoshi/successful women at the League.

You know, that was something that always bothered me. The only girl at any league that was somewhat successful was Astrid in XY. And even then it wasn't that big of a deal since her battle with Ash had nowhere near the same the same narrative weight as the battles against Sawyer and Alain.

Actually, I thought Bea would be the first to break this trend, but... yeah. Before that still at the end of the Ash VS Iris ep, I genuinely thought the writers had decided to drop her since it took this long for her to even be mentioned (albeit non-verbally). Which is a shame, really. Not only does that means that she probably won't play a larger role after Lucario has his eventual rematch with her Grapploct, I mean, a strong gym leader from Galar as his rival? There was so much potential.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Recently discussion about the treatment of female companions has flared up a bit, so I'm making this for those discussions.

The proportions the discussion about this subject swelled into caught me completely by surprise. So many walls of text to go through...

 

[Unireon]

Ayaka was totally wasted.

She and her Mega Absol were just used for promoting the new schtick.
Why not use her defeat of Satoshi in the Diancie movie as a set-up for a rivalry or something to make Luchabull grow to surpass Mega Absol.
And at the same time strengthen the connection between that movie and anime.
When the writers gave closure to Luchabull at the League, allowing Satoshi to beat her. It was very anti-climactic.

I wonder why they didn't....