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Speculation Should Primal Kyogre had been Water/Electric instead?

Shoudl Primal Kyogre have gotten an Electric typing?

  • Yes

    Votes: 16 34.8%
  • No

    Votes: 30 65.2%

  • Total voters
    46
Lovely
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No. Kyogre is fine with the current typing. IF it should have a new type, it should be Water/Ice since it has access to Sheer Cold, to mirror Groudon's Fissure.

Also, I feel that it's the ability affect that should change, not the typing. It makes sense that Fire attacks don't work against Primal Kyogre, but who on earth would even use a Fire-type against Kyogre anyways?


I feel that it should have been made to be immune to Electric, not gain an Electric typing.
 
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While STAB Thunder is nice and all, I think it's justified Primal Kyogre retains its pure Water-typing because it's supposed to be the very essence of the ocean. When I think of the ocean, I think of just water, not thunderstorms and electricity. Besides, making it weak to Groudon's main STAB wouldn't make them more "balanced" against eachother, since Desolate Land allows Primal Groudon to shrug off Water-type attacks anyway. If anything, Kyogre actually got the short end of the stick, since Primordial Sea doesn't give it an immunity to Ground-type attacks.
 
MegaEvolutionMegaProfesr!
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An amazing type combination on an already absurdly amazing pokemon? Pfft, yeah, I totally want another mega rayray. Though I don't like how it's basically just a vkyogre with slightly more rounded stats. Water/Ice might have worked, since ice beam is an important move on kyogre. That said, while it's not terribad defensive typing, it's still inferior to just water, so I'm not sure if it would be an overall upgrade or downgrade.
Well, Kyogre is an uber: there's no reason that the designers of Kyogre's Primal Reversion Form should necessarily have felt that they had to tread carefully to balance it. The Smogon "Anything Goes" tier and all like tiers were a reaction to the revelation that Mega Rayquaza didn't need a hold item: its designers otherwise weren't required to have its challenge to the ubers tier in mind, as it didn't yet exist in the form of those tiers.

Kyogre and Groudon had also just suffered multiple soft and hard nerfs over the generations to their once unique abilities. First other pokemon got them through the DW, and then, perhaps even because of those hidden ability pokemon (as again the games' designers are hardly concerned with "balancing" ubers, they would more likely be concerned with balancing the lower tiers of play), these abilities had their duration limited to a set number of turns.

It would also take a leap, not in the direction of greater power, but in the direction of completely greater usability to make Primal Kyogre AG like Mega Rayquaza. Primal Kyogre can't have this as long as it needs to hold a very specific hold item to Primal Revert (allowing no Choice Scarf). This will always leave Kyogre with certain sets over Primal Kyogre (i.e. Choice Scarf), including the sets Kyogre has used for multiple generations (i.e. Choice Scarf). Now if Primal Kyogre had received a different stat allocation from what it had been given, being given say a 50 point boost in base speed instead of attack... that would likely have been going in the direction of "completely better" as it would lessen the speed differential between the two.

I would push buffing Primal Kyogre in two very powerful ways, by modifying its typing (I've joined the Water/Electric camp, see part of response to graymelancholia below for the "logical" reasons) and by modifying Primordial Sea to generally make Kyogre stronger against the Ground type (Primordial Ocean's rain would nullify Ground moves): but really I would remove the "triumphing" combating natures of Primordial Sea and Desolate Land where the last one in effect takes the active weather condition, and would create a third weather to express the chaos the two in conjunction are making. (Primordial Desolation, anyone?) So really Primal Kyogre wouldn't gain against Primal Groudon in the lone context of the two battling, but it'd be much stronger than it currently is otherwise.

No. Kyogre is fine with the current typing. IF it should have a new type, it should be Water/Ice since it has access to Sheer Cold, to mirror Groudon's Fissure.

[1] Also, I feel that it's the ability affect that should change, not the typing. It makes sense that Fire attacks don't work against Primal Kyogre, but who on earth would even use a Fire-type against Kyogre anyways?


[2] I feel that it should have been made to be immune to Electric, not gain an Electric typing.
Per "1" a Fire immunity is no small deal, especially in ubers, and especially for Kyogre (although arguably somewhat less for Primal Kyogre). To have an immunity to Fire is to have an immunity to Sacred Fire and other things: that is protection from a very serious chance of Burn. That is also one reason why Primal Groudon's Fire type is very important, by the way.

"2" is actually a potentially logical idea as water actually does not conduct electricity without enough material in it. It may be difficult to implement however as Primal Kyogre is supposed to be an anti-(Primal)Groudon force in at least the context of battle: it needs to nerf Fire or Ground and now more than ever.

While STAB Thunder is nice and all, I think it's justified Primal Kyogre retains its pure Water-typing because [1] it's supposed to be the very essence of the ocean. When I think of the ocean, I think of just water, not thunderstorms and electricity. [2] Besides, making it weak to Groudon's main STAB wouldn't make them more "balanced" against eachother, since Desolate Land allows Primal Groudon to shrug off Water-type attacks anyway. If anything, Kyogre actually got the short end of the stick, since Primordial Sea doesn't give it an immunity to Ground-type attacks.
I mostly agree with the sentiments I've marked as "2" as far as they are a suggestion: then again I posted them before and went all the way. I do slightly disagree with your formulation though: Primal Groudon's weather would still kick in if Groudon was switched in: this could be situationally relevant depending on the number of pokemon each player had and how free they were to switch around.

Isshu is to be had with "1" primarily because Kyogre cannot just be "the very essence of the ocean"--if it's anything beyond a creature that likes to "make it rain" it is either a powerful force of nature or a powerful and blind force of nature, so powerful in either case that Archie thought to unleash it to expand the ocean. Kyogre must have some connection with rain (a given given its ability and the S/E/AS plots and cutscenes) and, as well, it must have some sort of connection with rain that would allow it (as opposed to the rain we naturally see naturally occur on Earth) to actually expand the ocean. So really Kyogre must have a connection with elements in the atmosphere and/or solar radiation.
 
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Lovely
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No. Kyogre is fine with the current typing. IF it should have a new type, it should be Water/Ice since it has access to Sheer Cold, to mirror Groudon's Fissure.

[1] Also, I feel that it's the ability affect that should change, not the typing. It makes sense that Fire attacks don't work against Primal Kyogre, but who on earth would even use a Fire-type against Kyogre anyways?


[2] I feel that it should have been made to be immune to Electric, not gain an Electric typing.
Per "1" a Fire immunity is no small deal, especially in ubers, and especially for Kyogre (although arguably somewhat less for Primal Kyogre). To have an immunity to Fire is to have an immunity to Sacred Fire and other things: that is protection from a very serious chance of Burn. That is also one reason why Primal Groudon's Fire type is very important, by the way.
Bringing out a Fire-type pokemon in a raining field in front of Kyogre is just plain suicide even without the Fire immunity. Using a Fire-type move is almost pointless as it will deal very little damage, and like you said, the only thing to gain from such attempts is to hope for Burns. And even if one does get lucky and burn Kyogre, it still has the rain to use to its advantage.

Kyogre's ability is underwhelming in that sense - at least compared to Groudon which completely grants immunity to a dangerous 4x weaknesss.

If Kyogre should gain immunity to one of Groudon's types for myth/story purposes, I feel that it should be immune to Ground. I heard from somewhere about scuba divers being unaffected by earthquakes when they're in the water. Dunno how it would work, but Kyogre could have the rain flood the field or something... (which, given Kyogre's legendary abilities it should be able to do)


Or add a Flying type to Kyogre for the immunity.
 
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It should be Electric, it would fit the theme of storms and thunder and rain. This way the legendaries will be more balanced, despite of groudon being immune to electric. I was hoping Primal Kyorge to be a Water/Electric or a Water/Ice when I it was first revealed its identity.
 
MegaEvolutionMegaProfesr!
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@Kyriaki The scenario I was talking about is switching Kyogre with the Blue Orb in on Sacred Fire. My answer was basically "Anyone who had Ho-oh, Entei, or Smeargle use Sacred Fire on the defending pokemon without correctly anticipating the switch-in of Primal Kyogre would find themselves using a Fire attack on Primal Kyogre"--Sacred Fire is of course a spammable move, and battlers use immunity as an opportunity to switch in pokemon, of course. (The positivist case for Mega Sceptile's ability is that Mega Sceptile becomes immune to priority Thunder Wave closing a sweep, and that such is of course very worthwhile on such a sweeper.)

I'm for a change in Primordial Sea, it making Ground moves useless somehow (see prior 2 posts in full). That could be done in a multitude of ways:

  1. Primordial Sea's triggered Heavy Rain condition could outright nullify Ground moves. (I don't necessarily like this option.)
  2. Primoridal Sea could cause a terrain change upon activation--the new terrain would nullify Ground moves. (I do like this option; admittedly I just came up with it.)
  3. Primordial Sea's triggered Heavy Rain condition could cause a terrain change after a round of effect that would nullify Ground moves. (I like this option most.)
So I said that there were a multitude of ways for Primordial Sea to nullify Ground moves. That's a yes and no I guess: there are multiple permutations based on what one does to Fire attacks in Heavy Rain as well. There are more options here than before:

  1. Heavy Rain could nullify Fire moves no longer.
  2. Heavy Rain could nullify Fire moves like it currently does. (I don't necessarily like this option.)
  3. Heavy Rain could, like normal Rain, halve the damage of Fire moves. (Weak sauce!)
  4. Heavy Rain could reduce the damage of Fire moves by a greater amount than 50%, like 75%. (Not a complete nerf depending on how Ground attacks handled.)
  5. Heavy Rain could maybe prevent Burns from Fire moves with either of the two above. (An excellent idea I think!)
These 18 possible changes (the complete permutation) would all leave Desolate Land as an ability that does comparably less. That might be fine for some: as it stands Desolate Land does almost everything a Trainer can reasonably want for Groudon.

But, strictly speaking, the Desolate Land ability doesn't make too much sense: it would require such intense heat to make a stream of water just evaporate.

Desolate Land could maybe also create a terrain to reconcile the half-and-one problems above: the "Desolate Land" terrain seems like it'd work (that name came to me in a fit of inspiration). This terrain would function something like the Strong Winds condition: it would remove all of Ground's weaknesses.

Then again, I am for any of a weather condition or terrain called "Primordial Desolation" which would usurp the current system of last entrant or slower simultaneous battler having its ability activate, so really I'm for a whole host of changes anyway.

League said:
Yup, that happened.
 
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Lovely
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@Kyriaki The scenario I was talking about is switching Kyogre with the Blue Orb in on Sacred Fire. My answer was basically "Anyone who had Ho-oh, Entei, or Smeargle use Sacred Fire on the defending pokemon without correctly anticipating the switch-in of Primal Kyogre would find themselves using a Fire attack on Primal Kyogre"--Sacred Fire is of course a spammable move, and battlers use immunity as an opportunity to switch in pokemon, of course. (The positivist case for Mega Sceptile's ability is that Mega Sceptile becomes immune to priority Thunder Wave closing a sweep, and that such is of course very worthwhile on such a sweeper.)
I don't know though... seeing how you can check your opponent's team before entering the battle field, with the weather buff and everything, they are bound to use Kyogre if they have one. I wouldn't use any Fire type pokemons or moves just because I can't predict switching - I'd avoid it if I can. But then again, this is just me.

I'm for a change in Primordial Sea, it making Ground moves useless somehow (see prior 2 posts in full). That could be done in a multitude of ways:

  1. Primordial Sea's triggered Heavy Rain condition could outright nullify Ground moves. (I don't necessarily like this option.)
  2. Primoridal Sea could cause a terrain change upon activation--the new terrain would nullify Ground moves. (I do like this option; admittedly I just came up with it.)
  3. Primordial Sea's triggered Heavy Rain condition could cause a terrain change after a round of effect that would nullify Ground moves. (I like this option most.)
Best options I've ever heard. Definitely better than nerfing Fire-types. I like the idea of number 2

But, strictly speaking, the Desolate Land ability doesn't make too much sense: it would require such intense heat to make a stream of water just evaporate.
Which seems to be the case on it activating, though. Any water type attacks are said to evaporate.
 
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Should have been Ice. I honestly thought it was Ice until I bothered to really check sometime after completing the Delta Episode, it just felt like an Ice type.
 
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Not necessarily an Electric-type, I was actually kind of bummed to find out that Kyogre didn't get a second typing with it's Primal form. Since the one Legendary that's supposed to be its counterpart in every aspect(except gender, obviously) got a typing upgrade due to an Evolution that's exclusive to them, then it's only fair that the other one gets the same treatment, right?

I say we start a movement, called the Kyogre-ism Movement. Equality for Kyogre. And I appoint Aqua Admin Shelly as the President.
 
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It doesn't look like an electric type to me, so no. If I had to choose a second type for it, I'd think that dragon would fit the best.
 
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I personally would've loved it, its glowing lines gave me the lightning feel (just like Groudon's lava) and its ability made a lightning storm.
 
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It would be really cool, but then he'd be a goddamn Rotom-W and I don't really want that.
 
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It would be really cool, but then he'd be a goddamn Rotom-W and I don't really want that.
Granted, it wouldn't have Levitate, which is what makes Rotom-W truly annoying.
 
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I'm wondering, with Groudon's Primal Reversion getting a new type, That the theme of Balance would be better enforced if Kyogre also gotten one as well, namely Electric.

Reasons why a part electric typing would be logical:
  • Groudon has access to a few Fire-type moves, likewise, Kyogre currently knows 4 Electric type moves, and unlike Groudon, both water and electric types (and flying) beenfir from the rain
  • From the Type chart. Water has an advantage over Fire, but Ground has an advantage over Electric. Ergo, their typings could ensure that both ahve an advantage over each other, but also are disadvataged aganst each other, sort like a more comple version of how Ghosts and Dragons are weak to their own type

Reasons why the typing would fail to support the theme
  • Why the typings do seem to compliemnt each other. The abilitys null the type of the opposing stab would make things a bit lop sided Groudon dround typing renders it immune to Thunder attacks and its ability nulls water-type attacks. So Kyogre would be forced to run Ice moves to even attack groudon (And ice moves are weak aganst fire)
  • On top of that, lightning seem more like Raquayza's territory, with him being the sky

So what do you think. SHould Kyogre have gotten an Electric-typing for it's Primal form or not? and Why do you think so?
I would say Primal Groudon being ground/fire should be matched by water/ice Kyogre and that Raquaza should be Dragon/Electric because Kyogre's move lines ups are all water and a few ice. And groudon's moves are all ground and some fire. Raquaza should have been reworked in types. Maybe just maybe Raquaza does have a primal reversion, however he was the first to have mega evolution, so maybe it's Primal = most bad ass evolution, Mega Evolution = Just under most bad ass evolution and regular evolution is standard.....maybe they are trying to tell use that evolution in modern times is actually de-evolution lol.
 
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Oh heavens, no! Water/Electric is a really terrible typing for anything not named Rotom-W. Getting an additional weakness to one of the most common attacking types (and consequently to the most common physical attack move) used competitively is not worth that extra power from a STAB Thunder.

Besides, there is no justifiable reason why Primal Kyogre should get a secondary typing. At least with Primal Groudon it was shown to radiate heat energy from its body. Aside from its "bioluminescence" and Thunder being 100% accurate with its weather condition, Primal Kyogre has absolutely no connection to the Electric-typing.
 
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Oh heavens, no! Water/Electric is a really terrible typing for anything not named Rotom-W. Getting an additional weakness to one of the most common attacking types (and consequently to the most common physical attack move) used competitively is not worth that extra power from a STAB Thunder.

Besides, there is no justifiable reason why Primal Kyogre should get a secondary typing. At least with Primal Groudon it was shown to radiate heat energy from its body. Aside from its "bioluminescence" and Thunder being 100% accurate with its weather condition, Primal Kyogre has absolutely no connection to the Electric-typing.

I disagree because giving Groudon "fire" type is also giving it more weaknesses and especially to it's own typing as well as to rock type which is another fairly common move type. Besides Groudon's ability suits it well in all areas, single, double triple and rotational. However Kyogre's ability, though it suits it for its water type attacks is actually completely useless accept for doubles, triples and rotation. No one in their right mind would use a fire type attack on Kyrogre even in normal form. So this ability was completely useless in Primal form unless your tagteaming, and even then it's only good for most of the Pokemon that can wield electric attacks are susceptible to ground attacks and not fire. So once again it's kinda useless to upgrade rain to more rain.
 
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I disagree because giving Groudon "fire" type is also giving it more weaknesses and especially to it's own typing as well as to rock type which is another fairly common move type.
Actually Primal Groudon has two weaknesses - Ground and Water (4x), and even then most Pokémon wouldn't be able to land a Water-type attack on PG because of the Desolate Land sunlight. PG takes neutral damage from Rock-type moves because of its part Ground-typing; Ground resists Rock.

Meanwhile, ordinary Groudon has three 2x weaknesses - Ice, Water, and Grass.
 
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I disagree because giving Groudon "fire" type is also giving it more weaknesses and especially to it's own typing as well as to rock type which is another fairly common move type.
Actually Primal Groudon has two weaknesses - Ground and Water (4x), and even then most Pokémon wouldn't be able to land a Water-type attack on PG because of the Desolate Land sunlight. PG takes neutral damage from Rock-type moves because of its part Ground-typing; Ground resists Rock.

Meanwhile, ordinary Groudon has three 2x weaknesses - Ice, Water, and Grass.
yep but the point is they super charged Groudon and really didn't do much for Kyogre. They should have added something different for Kyrogre instead of rushing through ORAS development in a year and a half.
 
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