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Preview SM139: Birth! The Alola Champion!!

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"Several" :ROFLMAO: And how much of that feedback 1) mentioned the writer by name and 2) reached the people who actually make the show?

Also, how much of an episode's scipt do you think the screenplay author actually has control over in the first place?
So you think that a higher up said to Junichi Fujisaku, "Ash is going to win, but we want you to write a controversial win on Ash's part. You think you can do that?

And Fujisaku said "Hell Yes, I will" and then made the episode the way it was.

OR did they just say that Ash has to win no matter what, and Fujisaku decided to write a controversial battle?

I SEVERELY doubt the former because of all the battles that exist out there, there is enough NUANCE that it has to squarely be the fault of the actual writer. How can you otherwise get GREAT battles to HORRIBLE or CONTROVERSIAL battles but argue that is SOLELY up to a Executive Producer to be like "Yes, write this battle as if you want to win an award" or "Totally write this episode battle so that everyone will bring their pitchforks and hate you for it" I just can't see that being the case, unless their are multiple higher ups, that are paired up to each of the writers and tell them what they want, and Fujisaku is paired with himself....LMAO, just kidding, someone who has assured that Fujisaku's battles are controversial or hated.

I just SEVERELY doubt that, but I guess we'll see. Melmetal needlessly evolving from Meltan only for it lose, does not strike me as an intelligent decision either by a writer writing his own battle with a specific outcome or even by a higher up.

Conspiracy Theory time: Junichi Fujisaku hates Ash but is obligated to have Ash win the battles he wins, THUS the controversial hated battles exist.
 
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I think somewhere in the battle gladion will switch zoroark with lycanroc same as ash as he switches pikachu with his lycanroc. I think this time dusk lycanroc will win but lose to zoroark and since zoroark was mohn's Pokemon it might be more powerful than gladion expects it to be and win the battle for gladion what you think?
 
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How could Team Flare have done that? Why wouldn't they confirm that in-work to placate us fans?

Alain was clearly being set up to beat Ash in a way that would avoid the usual criticisms. He was an audiences surrogate for us older fans, had a whole series to set him up as a worthy opponent, and even deconstructed his win didn't get him what he wanted.
Sheesh, you didn't read the word "headcanon"? There's a lot of stuff that feel out of place though I'd be giving Fujita too much credit to think it was premeditated.
 
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So you think that a higher up said to Junichi Fujisaku, "Ash is going to win, but we want you to write a controversial win on Ash's part. You think you can do that?

And Fujisaku said "Hell Yes, I will" and then made the episode the way it was.

OR did they just say that Ash has to win no matter what, and Fujisaku decided to write a controversial battle?
You see...pokémon league is a continous event that take place in several episodes. These episodes are written by different people, but they had to be harmonious and connected with each other, since, for example, you can't have someone make Suiren lose to Mao when you're planning Guzma to battle her in a future episode. Those writers had to follow a predetermined plan. So how you do that? By calling a storyline meeting with all writers and the showrunner, and making decisions: who wins against whom, who lose against whom, how they should lose it, who's gonna use who, etc., etc...That fake defeat was such a storyline element that too important, so, it should be a decision by that meeting, not a thing a single writer can made up themself.

So, why they done such a bad, controversial thing? Well...I'm very critical of SM's writing myself, yet I didn't have a problem with this event, so this can't be objectively bad as people here assumed, I suppose? At least there is worser storytelling problems, like Lilie's decision to only support her brother, or how they tried to make Hau a credible rival. And it's not like they need an actual reason to use some cheap drama and subvert expectations, that's the basic of TV drama writing.
 
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Well...I'm very critical of SM's writing myself, yet I didn't have a problem with this event, so this can't be objectively bad as people here assumed, I suppose?
OK, I really have a problem with that statement. From an objective standpoint, that battle (and, more specifically, Rowlet's fake out) is atrocious. Rowlet being unable to stay focused or even awake in the battle contradicts the fact that it wanted to battle Decidueye and was even shown to be eager to do so! The fact that Hala somehow knew that Rowlet wasn't KO'd doesn't make sense, since he's only seen it do thing once in the early in the series, so he couldn't tell that that's something that Rowlet always does (not to mentipon that there's also the possibility that Rowlet would've changed since the last time he saw it, so he couldn't be certain that it still had the same issues)! The fact that Rowlet wasn't KO'd, despite the fact that it constantly got hit by numerous attacks doesn't make sense and neither does the fact that it managed to defeat Decidueye with just two moves, despite the fact that Rowlet spent most of that match on the defensive!! The fact that Rowlet used Feather Dance in order to create a substitute that allowed it escape attacks contradicts the way Feather Dance was portrayed in the previous episode!!!!!

There's just so much wrong with that battle, that if I were to list every problem within it and explain in a very detailed way why it's terrible I'd be here for hours. And just because you were able to tolerate these problems or ignore them or be unable to see them doesn't mean that they don't exist! Not to mention that you bringing up your personal experience kind of contradicts the whole point of being objective (aka. "not being influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts").
 
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Not to mention that you bringing up your personal experience kind of contradicts the whole point of being objective
Why? I'm not calling objectively not bad either, and I'm not even saying that episode was not badly written, just trying to guess and rationalize their writing process. Point is, it's not had to be objectively bad, there is even people that may love it, so Dustin's point about "they wouldn't deliberately want him to write a controversial episode" thing is not the only conclusion, because they might like this and didn't see it as controversial at all. And it's not a single writer's fault.
Rowlet being unable to stay focused or even awake in the battle contradicts the fact that it wanted to battle Decidueye and was even shown to be eager to do so!
It's not contradictory if you see Mokuroh as a terrible pokémon, which is canon.
The fact that Hala somehow knew that Rowlet wasn't KO'd doesn't make sense
A better question would be " how can people notice the difference between defeated and sleeping pokémon" which is not get an answer, unless they literally had swirly eyes, and in that case, Hala might notice lack of that.
The fact that Rowlet wasn't KO'd, despite the fact that it constantly got hit by numerous attacks doesn't make sense and neither does the fact that it managed to defeat Decidueye with just two moves, despite the fact that Rowlet spent most of that match on the defensive!! The fact that Rowlet used Feather Dance in order to create a substitute that allowed it escape attacks contradicts the way Feather Dance was portrayed in the previous episode!!!!!
I was only talking about the big event that caused the backlash, the fake defeat. I don't care much about the battle myself, in fact I don't even remember it anymore. My point is, whole backlash is not a single writer's fault and people are too overzealous to bash him, something he's not solely responsible for.
 
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No, but I do want to put the whole League myth to rest once and for all. And the best way to do so is winning the League and show that doesn't stop Ash at all.
It will if he's replaced by his AU self.
 
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I was only talking about the big event that caused the backlash, the fake defeat. I don't care much about the battle myself, in fact I don't even remember it anymore. My point is, whole backlash is not a single writer's fault and people are too overzealous to bash him, something he's not solely responsible for.
I doubt they discuss the intrinsic details about the battles themselves at board meetings. They discuss main points like who will win using what Pokemon, they don't discuss the HOW of whatever will happen, that's what the writer is to execute.
Some writers are smart enough to make battles interesting, have the characters use improvised moves/strategies and fix oversights or previous writer's mistakes... while some don't. Example being in SM136, Nanu went to check if Scizor was really down due to the Rowlet debacle whereas for the next episode, the writer wrote that Nanu wasn't bothered to check.

Now, it may be possible that Fujisaku intentionally writes bad episodes because he was paid off by a rival company or w/e, that's just a tinfoil conspiracy though. The general premise is that he doesn't understand the dynamic (or the basics) of Pokemon battling like some of the other writers do, nor is he bothered to try and learn them. He's trying to deliver false shock-and-awe comeback moments with his cheap deus ex machinas.
At this point, his modus operandi is Pokemon B wrecking Pokemon A > Cheap Deux Ex > Pokemon A wins within the next 2 minutes or so.
 
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I doubt they discuss the intrinsic details about the battles themselves. They discuss main points like who will win using what Pokemon, they don't discuss the HOW of whatever will happen, that's what the writer is to execute.
Did you see how sad looking Satoshi was after his defeat? It was very different from his usual self in the previous league defeats. It's a decision made in the new light of Satoshi's victory against Gladio. Whole thing is pre-planned.
It will if he's replaced by his AU self.
I guess Makoto and Souji were more popular than you assumed.
 
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Did you see how sad looking Satoshi was after his defeat? It was very different from his usual self in the previous league defeats. It's a decision made in the new light of Satoshi's victory against Gladio. Whole thing is pre-planned.
Duh? Being sad after seeing you've lost is a legitimate reaction, nothing surprising about that... still don't know how you're trying to connect that to the cheap fake-out writing though.
 
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Duh? Being sad after seeing you've lost is a legitimate reaction, nothing surprising about that...
Nothing surprising about that? They never showed him like that since OS. How can it be not surprising? And it shows that whole thing is part of a big plan.
 
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Nothing surprising about that? They never showed him like that since OS. How can it be not surprising? And it shows that whole thing is part of a big plan.
Different people take losing in different manners. You don't recall the dark expression on his face during the Sinnoh League defeat? Dunno how to explain it in BW and XY. Still, you're trying to sidetrack here. The original issue was the cheap fake-out writing, plot armored wins.
 
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No? Original issue is whether it's pre-planned by a story meeting or not.
And I pretty much agreed to some extent that the story is probably planned in staff meetings, just not to the extent you assumed. They would plan general plot points (like who matches up against whom, which Pokemon they use to battle and who wins .etc.), but the execution and transitioning of those plot points is left to the individual writer.

Which Fujisaku fails at for battles, due to his lack of understanding of Pokemon battling.

Some people cry, some people have dark expressions, some laugh it off.
 
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Why? I'm not calling objectively not bad either, and I'm not even saying that episode was not badly written, just trying to guess and rationalize their writing process. Point is, it's not had to be objectively bad, there is even people that may love it, so Dustin's point about "they wouldn't deliberately want him to write a controversial episode" thing is not the only conclusion, because they might like this and didn't see it as controversial at all. And it's not a single writer's fault.
(I find the wording a little strange, so I apologize if I misunderstand what you're saying.)

First of all, you literally said that "this can't be objectively bad", which basically means that it's "objectively not bad".

Second of all, just because some people (which may or may not include the rest of the crew and staff of the anime) have enjoyed it, it doesn't mean that it wasn't objectively bad; it means that it wasn't bad from a subjective standpoint. Those two are totally different, since you can have a game/cartoon/film/TV show etc. that is objectively poorly written and nonsensical, yet you can still find it enjoyable despite its numerous flaws. And the same goes to one that is objective good that, despite the fact that it tries to create a consistent story that makes sense within its universe, people may still find unenjoyable. The Room proves that you can have a terribly written piece of media that is still enjoyable (mainly due to how bad it is). And Captain America: Civil War proves that you can have an objectively great piece of media that has a well thought-out and consistent story that makes sense, is well explained and features characters whose portrayals are in line with their preestablished character, thoughts and beliefs, yet can still be disliked or outright hated by some.

And thirdly, when it comes to writing, I am in the camp of people who believe that there's more to a story than "I liked it". Consistency, lore, logical narative, rationality, in-universe rules and laws, characters and actions being in line with previously established personality and psyche, respectively previously established events and canon - these things matter to a story and are arguably just as important (or even more important) than the temporary feeling that the story gave you.

It's not contradictory if you see Mokuroh as a terrible pokémon, which is canon.
It actually is contradictory to not only its portrayal right before the match started, but also to the episode in which it battled Dartrix for the first time, where, after being defeated, it was shown to start to train more seriously and was shown to be able to keep itself focused on the battle (focused enough to at least not fall asleep in the middle of it). Not to mention that that scene single-handedly throws away all of the late development that it received before the league, which actually tried to make Rowlet be less of a liability and more of a competent Pokémon.

A better question would be " how can people notice the difference between defeated and sleeping pokémon" which is not get an answer, unless they literally had swirly eyes, and in that case, Hala might notice lack of that.
Allow me to give you a quick recap of the relevant events. Rowlet's Brave Bird and Decidueye's Sky Attack collide, leading to a huge explosion. As soon as the dust and smoke form the explosion starts to dissipate, we see both Pokémon lying on the ground (with Rowlet's face being more or less buried in the ground). After some time, Decidueye gets up, then Nanu waits for Rowlet to do the same. It doesn't, however, which leads him to assume the it is no longer able to battle and, thus, he declares Hau the winner. So, unless Hala has Kryptonian vision (either that, or he somehow broke the 4th wall and read the script), there is no way that he'd be able to know for certain that Rowlet is actually asleep.
 
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First of all, you literally said that "this can't be objectively bad", which basically means that it's "objectively not bad".
Not at all. It's a wholly subjective matter, basically objectively neither.
Allow me to give you a quick recap of the relevant events.
It still doesn't explain the rationale behind their ability to distinguish sleeping pokémon from the defeated ones.
Second of all, just because some people have enjoyed it, it doesn't mean that it wasn't objectively bad
I was talking about people who genuinely love it, not enjoying it in a ironic, "too bad it's hilarious" way.
It actually is contradictory to not only its portrayal right before the match started, but also to the episode in which it battled Dartrix for the first time, where, after being defeated, it was shown to start to train more seriously and was shown to be able to keep itself focused on the battle.
If you're looking for contradictions, this whole rivalry with Juniper is the most contradictory thing about Mokuroh's characterization. It basically came out of nowhere, and this whole serious business attitude is oit of character for it.
 
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It's a wholly subjective matter, basically objectively neither.
No, it's not! Some people may dislike that scene because of their particular subjective outlook, but that doesn't undermine the fact that there are objective problems with it (which I've already mentioned/explained on this very thread)!

It still doesn't explain the rationale behind their ability to distinguish sleeping pokémon from the defeated ones.
It's simple: if a Pokémon is unconscious after being hit by an attack (generally marked visually by giving the fainted Pokémon swirling eyes), then it's considered unable to battle. The fact that it didn't get up after being hit by a powerful attack and after enduring a bunch of other ones throughout the battle, it was reasonable of Nanu to believe that Rowlet was KO'd and, due to the fact that it had its face in the ground ( thus hiding the lack of swirly eyes), no one could've known any better.

I was talking about people who genuinely love it, not enjoying it in a ironic, "too bad it's hilarious" way.
I... I didn't even bring the latter up in my response. I guess me using The Room as an example could've been interpreted as such (I guess Star Wars: The Last Jedi would've been a better example), but I never bring up the "enjoying it in an ironic way" thing at all.

Regardless, the point is that a group of people's emotional reaction to a piece of writing doesn't brush of its inconsistencies or any other problems it has, nor does it magically create nonexistent ones.

If you're looking for contradictions, this whole rivalry with Juniper is the most contradictory thing about Mokuroh's characterization. It basically came out of nowhere, and this whole serious business attitude is oit of character for it.
Is it? I may have to rewatch that episode, but I don't remember it contradicting Rowlet and his character. We only saw a few battles in which Rowlet actively participates in and, for the most part, Rowlet's been sleeping when not battling, so we haven't gotten a chance to see that much of its character. Besides, Rowlet was defeated in its first battle with Dartrix and was even somewhat ridiculed by the latter due to its sleepy tendencies (as far as I remember, at least), that defeat (coupled with the ridicule) gave it a personal incentive to better itself when it comes to battling. So, from a narrative point of view, Rowlet deciding to take its training serious made sense.
 
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It's simple: if a Pokémon is unconscious after being hit by an attack (generally marked visually by giving the fainted Pokémon swirling eyes), then it's considered unable to battle.
Doesn't that mean he was actually right about Mokuroh, and it was a KO after all?
No, it's not! Some people may dislike that scene because of their particular subjective outlook, but that doesn't undermine the fact that there are objective problems with it (which I've already mentioned/explained on this very thread)!
That's a big claim to say that your own views are some objective fact.
Regardless, the point is that a group of people's emotional reaction to a piece of writing doesn't brush of its inconsistencies or any other problems it has, nor does it magically create nonexistent ones.
...So, what does it had to do with anything?
Is it? I may have to rewatch that episode, but I don't remember it contradicting Rowlet and his character. We only saw a few battles in which Rowlet actively participates in and, for the most part, Rowlet's been sleeping when not battling, so we haven't gotten a chance to see that much of its character.
Being lazy is its primary personality trait, so it was contradictory.
Besides, Rowlet was defeated in its first battle with Dartrix and was even somewhat ridiculed by the latter due to its sleepy tendencies (as far as I remember, at least), that defeat (coupled with the ridicule) gave it a personal incentive to better itself when it comes to battling. So, from a narrative point of view, Rowlet deciding to take its training serious made sense.
Only because Satoshi dropped the Z crystal.
 
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You see...pokémon league is a continous event that take place in several episodes. These episodes are written by different people, but they had to be harmonious and connected with each other, since, for example, you can't have someone make Suiren lose to Mao when you're planning Guzma to battle her in a future episode. Those writers had to follow a predetermined plan. So how you do that? By calling a storyline meeting with all writers and the showrunner, and making decisions: who wins against whom, who lose against whom, how they should lose it, who's gonna use who, etc., etc...That fake defeat was such a storyline element that too important, so, it should be a decision by that meeting, not a thing a single writer can made up themself.
But I still don't know, because while I get your point that Guzma was planned to face Lana, why would it matter how Lana beat Mallow as long as Lana won? I mean sure there probably are character instances that the writers must follow, you can't have completely beyond out of character moments, like Lana telling Primarina use ice beam inside Tsareena's mouth in hopes of killing the Pokemon. Obviously no.

But I don't see why the whole format would've been decided, since like I said there are TOO many nuances, that the battles would feel similar or the same. I don't believe for a moment that one battle is regarded as superior to another, and its because a bunch of people decided to make a battler inferior to another or it just naturally turns out that way, because they leave too many things open

But I don't recall two different writers having the exact same writing style, outside of episodes that feel like "by the numbers" or "Filler" where they probably will be identical in style.

So, why they done such a bad, controversial thing? Well...I'm very critical of SM's writing myself, yet I didn't have a problem with this event, so this can't be objectively bad as people here assumed, I suppose? At least there is worser storytelling problems, like Lilie's decision to only support her brother, or how they tried to make Hau a credible rival. And it's not like they need an actual reason to use some cheap drama and subvert expectations, that's the basic of TV drama writing.
Okay the whole "controversial, hated" responses were entirely jokes, I do understand that the writers and producers have tunnel vision or the lack of hindsight at the time they make these episodes. I do realize that they wouldn't be able to see that Ash winning the way he did would be seen as controversial.

But still, I just can't imagine why it would make any sense for a group of people, including Tomioka (who has written excellent episode) would ever approve of Ash having a fake loss. Like why wait for a short while before HALA decided to speak, and not immediately right after Nanu called the battle. "Hau is the winner" "HOLD IT!" I mean it could be the animator's choice (as I've said before in the episode thread), I don't know how much of what we see is the animator's translation of the text he gets or if the animator is allowed to put up some buffer scenes to fill the time. Such as I don't know if the animator saw "For a few seconds, Hau had apparently won before Hala said anything' or was it "Hau seemed to have won but then Hala speaks with Nanu" which turned out to be a little too long with Hau celebrating his victory before Hala stepped up to object to the verdict. I just can't for sure say. Maybe it was meant for Hala to object immediately but they needed to fill a few seconds of space or whatever. Maybe they wanted it to seem like Ash lost before saying anything.

But even despite that, why add a comical gag in a serious match. At least my idea would've been comical, and it wouldn't have have come at the cost of Hala thinking he won, is if Rowlet actually learned substitute, and what we saw looked like a "dead" Rowlet, and Nanu calling it before Rowlet angrily saying "what you mean I'm unable to battle" to maybe Nanu profusely apologizing to Ash and Rowlet for not realizing that Rowlet wasn't laying on the ground or at least having Nanu realize it was likely a Pokemon move that Rowlet used to get away from the blast.

I just fail to see why they chose to go this route, except maybe to do it once in the franchises history. But I don't know, I feel like if Tomioka were to write the episode, I feel as if he would've done it better, personally, in my opinion.

And that leads into this episode's problem. Why evolve Meltan, just to have it immediately lose? Then again it apparently is a 3 vs 3 instead of a 4 vs 4 based on the pictures released since Torracat and Rowlet are watching the battle, so I guess that makes sense, considering you'd want Pikachu and Lycanroc to get wins. But if Ash wins, that means either Pikachu or Lycanroc get TWO wins.
 
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