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Preview SM139: Birth! The Alola Champion!!

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And that leads into this episode's problem. Why evolve Meltan, just to have it immediately lose? Then again it apparently is a 3 vs 3 instead of a 4 vs 4 based on the pictures released since Torracat and Rowlet are watching the battle, so I guess that makes sense, considering you'd want Pikachu and Lycanroc to get wins. But if Ash wins, that means either Pikachu or Lycanroc get TWO wins.
Likely for a red herring, and to prove that Ash, if he wins, didn't win because he just got a last-minute uber powerful Mythical Pokémon by his side.

And I wonder if Melmetal would far better against Royal Mask...
 
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Likely for a red herring, and to prove that Ash, if he wins, didn't win because he just got a last-minute uber powerful Mythical Pokémon by his side.

And I wonder if Melmetal would far better against Royal Mask...
I doubt Melmetal will be used against Kukui. Against Guzzlord though, sure. For that matter, we need to know SM141's title and more details regarding the full battle.
 
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That's a big claim to say that your own views are some objective fact.
...Okaaaay, you're one of those people. Let's start from beginning (aka. the two words' meanings). To say that something is objective is to say that that something is not under the influence of someone's personal feelings while also taking into account/being based on some kind of fact(s). A fact is a thing that is know and is provable to be true. Now, by definition, a fact is a more or less undeniable objective statement. But an objective statement is not a fact in and of itself. Facts (generally) represent the basis for an objective statement, but if that fact's evidence is faulty or incomplete, then the objective statement is false. For example, up until a few years ago, Pluto was classified as a planet. But, after new evidence arose, it was discovered that it is actually a dwarf planet and, thus, the objective idea of Pluto being a planet became false.

For a better explanation on the whole Subjectivity vs. Objectivity debate, I recommend watching this long video from the longman himself, who does a far better job explaining this than I could within the limits of this page. Or, if its's too long for your tastes, you could try and read this post form Reddit (from the longman's thread), which does as great of a job of explaining this whole... debacle as the video does. Or, for an even shorter version, here's a twitter thread (also from the longman himself).

Now, back to my response. Nowhere in my post do I boldly state that what I said is a irrefutable fact, as you claim I do! I try to be as objective with my assessments as I can, sure. But I do not say that they aren't or cannot be wrong! My statements are based on the story, its progression, its characters, their progression, its lore, its internal rules, internal logic and whether they all make sense or not, with the objective of analyzing and explaining whether they all work together or not and why! That doesn't mean that I'm absolutely right! I sometimes get stuff wrong, I sometimes misinterpret evidence in the wrong way, I sometimes make mistakes and I never denied that. Heck, I've made a couple of false assumptions/faulty objective statements on these very forums (and some people have corrected me about)! And that's perfectly fine! I make mistakes and, if someone is able to prove to me/show me what I've gotten wrong or why I am wrong, than I'm more than happy to admit that I'm wrong or, at the very least, drop the conversation (since I wouldn't be able to add anything to it)! The reason I'm not admitting defeat in our current conversation is because you have yet to come up with a strong argument that convinces me that my entire premise or my arguments or the logic behind them is faulty!

...So, what does it had to do with anything?
You said "Point is, it's not had to be objectively bad, there is even people that may love it", to which I responded by saying that whether people loved it or hated it or whatever they felt about it doesn't change whether the scene was objectively bad or not, since feelings are entirely subjective! You then decided to pick apart one of my examples (without even mentioning it somehow), which led to me reiterating that point, since apparently you missed it!

Being lazy is its primary personality trait, so it was contradictory.
And it deciding to be more proactive, since its laziness was (partially) responsible for its defeat, is not contradictory!

Only because Satoshi dropped the Z crystal.
Partially true. But the whole reason Ash even decided to use a Z-crystal in the first place was because it wasn't doing so hot during that battle. Dartrix was keeping Rowlet on the defensive and, because the former's attacks were stronger, Ash decided to use a Z-move to finish the battle quickly.
 
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...Okaaaay, you're one of those people. Let's start from beginning (aka. the two words' meanings). To say that something is objective is to say that that something is not under the influence of someone's personal feelings while also taking into account/being based on some kind of fact(s). A fact is a thing that is know and is provable to be true. Now, by definition, a fact is a more or less undeniable objective statement. But an objective statement is not a fact in and of itself. Facts (generally) represent the basis for an objective statement, but if that fact's evidence is faulty or incomplete, then the objective statement is false. For example, up until a few years ago, Pluto was classified as a planet. But, after new evidence arose, it was discovered that it is actually a dwarf planet and, thus, the objective idea of Pluto being a planet became false.
I'm not sure what you mean by "one of those people," but comparing science and art criticism is definitely wrong.
For a better explanation on the whole Subjectivity vs. Objectivity debate, I recommend watching this long video from the longman himself, who does a far better job explaining this than I could within the limits of this page. Or, if its's too long for your tastes, you could try and read this post form Reddit (from the longman's thread), which does as great of a job of explaining this whole... debacle as the video does. Or, for an even shorter version, here's a twitter thread (also from the longman himself).
Soubds like a bunch of filibuster and Youtube drama to me. I would recommend you to not to listen Youtube critics, especially about things like objectivity.
Now, back to my response. Nowhere in my post do I boldly state that what I said is a irrefutable fact, as you claim I do!
But you said that "fake defeat" is objectively bad?
The reason I'm not admitting defeat in our current conversation is because you have yet to come up with a strong argument that convinces me that my entire premise or my arguments or the logic behind them is faulty!
Which one? You said many different things.
You said "Point is, it's not had to be objectively bad, there is even people that may love it", to which I responded by saying that whether people loved it or hated it or whatever they felt about it doesn't change whether the scene was objectively bad or not, since feelings are entirely subjective! You then decided to pick apart one of my examples (without even mentioning it somehow), which led to me reiterating that point, since apparently you missed it!
If feelings are subjective, how can you claim that "fake defeat" is an objectively bad thing? Based on which scientific facts?
And it deciding to be more proactive, since its laziness was (partially) responsible for its defeat, is not contradictory!
How is it not contradictory? It never cared about these thing before.
Partially true. But the whole reason Ash even decided to use a Z-crystal in the first place was because it wasn't doing so hot during that battle. Dartrix was keeping Rowlet on the defensive and, because the former's attacks were stronger, Ash decided to use a Z-move to finish the battle quickly.
Not really. Mokuroh was sleeping at the beginning, then they both throw feathers each other once, neither get hit. Then Satoshi dropped the crystal, that's it.
 
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Likely for a red herring, and to prove that Ash, if he wins, didn't win because he just got a last-minute uber powerful Mythical Pokémon by his side.
And yet Gladion is allowed to have the overwhelming advantage. Because Ash is only using Melmetal, Lycanroc, and Pikachu. Like even if somehow Ash's Lycanroc surpassed Gladion's Lycanroc. There's still Silvally and Zoroark, and I can't imagine Pikachu being superior to either of them, even if Melmetal severely weakens Silvally.

Melmetal wasn't supposed to just lose, it was to help bridge the gap between Ash and Gladion.

It also has a confliction with the story. Meltan clearly wanted to get stronger for Ash, forcing Melmetal to lose defeats the purpose of evolving in its entirety.

But now, Ash looks he might unrealistically beat Ash.

I doubt Melmetal will be used against Kukui. Against Guzzlord though, sure. For that matter, we need to know SM141's title and more details regarding the full battle.
Don't know why you're saying this when the battle with Kukui will be a full battle. Ash is already at a disadvantage by only having 5 Pokemon, take away Melmetal, and Ash is in the same boat as Gladion
 
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I'm not sure what you mean by "one of those people," but comparing science and art criticism is definitely wrong.
The kind that say that "there's no such thing as analyzing art objectively" and that "everything is subjective".

And I'm not saying that art analysis should be treated like rocket science. I'm saying that art (specifically storytelling) can be assessed objectively based on whether that story contradicts itself or not, whether the way the characters and their actions fit the way they've been portrayed and other stuff like that.

Soubds like a bunch of filibuster and Youtube drama to me. I would recommend you to not to listen Youtube critics, especially about things like objectivity.
And I would advise you to, at the very least, watch the first 20-28 minutes of the video (or just read the darn Twitter thread) before you decide to brush off MauLer's arguments as nothing more than irrelevant "YouTube drama". Not to mention that he's the kind of guy who does long videos in order to better explain his assessments and his arguments and who started doing his videos because of how lackluster art analysis and video essays on YouTube have become. At least give him a chance and see what he has to say.

But you said that "fake defeat" is objectively bad
...Sigh. Are you... Are you doing this on purpose? Are you just messing with me or something?

Regardless, allow me to be as clear as I can be! I analyzed the elements of the fake-out defeat, both on the episode's review thread and on this one! Based on that analysis, I came to the conclusion that scene is objectively bad, as it breaks the narrative flow of the story and the way the characters have been portrayed up to that point! That doesn't mean that my objective assessment is a 100% undeniable true fact!!!!! It is possible that I could be wrong or may have interpreted something wrong and, if you think that's the case, you are more than welcome to explain to me what part of my analysis is wrong and why! I would then read your response, see whether it lines up with what the information the episode provided us and then decide whether or not you're right and I'm wrong! Now have I made things clear enough for you?!

Which one? You said many different things.
In this conversation? Any of them.

How is it not contradictory? It never cared about these thing before.
Because the episode explains why! Due to its laziness, it lost the battle and was somewhat made fun off for it by its newfound rival, which prompted it to start to train harder! If you actually watch the episode and pay attention to what is going on, it makes sense, both within the episode's story and the overall narrative! That defeat gives Rowlet an incentive to start taking battles more seriously, something that it didn't have before.

Not really. Mokuroh was sleeping at the beginning, then they both throw feathers each other once, neither get hit. Then Satoshi dropped the crystal, that's it.
I just rewatched that battle, so what happened in it is fresh in my mind. Rowlet managed to dodge Dartrix's multiple Razor Leafs, but it was shown to be shocked by how fast and how strong they are (and even Rotom comments on the fact the they are very strong). Ash compliments Hau and then decides to use his Z-move in response to his opponent's prowess, only for his crystal to slip in a patch of grass that is conveniently the same color as the Grassium Z. Yes, Ash loosing his Z-crystal ultimately cost him the battle, but you can't deny that Rowlet's lackluster performance didn't play a part in it!



Now, if you'll excuse me, I really need to catch some z's, so bye-bye.
 
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And yet Gladion is allowed to have the overwhelming advantage. Because Ash is only using Melmetal, Lycanroc, and Pikachu. Like even if somehow Ash's Lycanroc surpassed Gladion's Lycanroc. There's still Silvally and Zoroark, and I can't imagine Pikachu being superior to either of them, even if Melmetal severely weakens Silvally.

Melmetal wasn't supposed to just lose, it was to help bridge the gap between Ash and Gladion.

It also has a confliction with the story. Meltan clearly wanted to get stronger for Ash, forcing Melmetal to lose defeats the purpose of evolving in its entirety.

But now, Ash looks he might unrealistically beat Ash.
Silvally went down before Pikachu. That is fact according to the previews. That was Gladion's ace; his "invincible" Pokémon. And Pikachu has taken down Legendaries before.

Oh and Zoroark? A poor man's substitute for Lucario. If Pikachu beat Mega Lucario, why can't it defeat a Zoroark?

I think Gladion might have made a mistake by sending out Silvally first instead of saving him for last. You always save your best for last just to give the aura of intimidation and invincibility. Maybe that's why Melmetal was so important. To draw out Gladion's best Pokémon first rather than risk Gladion retaining a healthy Silvally to launch upon a weakened Ash's team.
 
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There's still Silvally and Zoroark, and I can't imagine Pikachu being superior to either of them, even if Melmetal severely weakens Silvally.
You're talking about a Pokemon that has defeated Legendaries before, so why is Pikachu suddenly inferior to Gladion's Silvally and Zoroark?
 
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You're talking about a Pokemon that has defeated Legendaries before, so why is Pikachu suddenly inferior to Gladion's Silvally and Zoroark?
Yeah, this is the same Pikachu that beat a Metagross and Tyranitar in one battle (both species with higher raw power gamewise than Silvally or Zoroark).

That doesn't mean he WILL defeat Zoroark as well, of course, but I think it's possible and within his established strength--at it's peak, at least, since Pikachu's power fluctuates like crazy.
 
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Not exactly. This title doesn't mention any names. Just that Alola is getting a Champion here, which we already knew.
Didn’t Ash battling alongside Royal Mask have a similar episode title?

We may not have a crystal ball, but we do have the preview summaries, and in my opinion, Melmetal getting beaten in its first post-evolution battle by a Pokémon that's then beaten by Pikachu sounds like pure Fujisaku.
Melmetal losing makes sense since it’s the thing's first battle after evolution, and it has a huge adjustment to make thanks to its body shape. Meltan's usual style is agile which it cannot use now.
 
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Yeah, this is the same Pikachu that beat a Metagross and Tyranitar in one battle (both species with higher raw power gamewise than Silvally or Zoroark).

That doesn't mean he WILL defeat Zoroark as well, of course, but I think it's possible and within his established strength--at it's peak, at least, since Pikachu's power fluctuates like crazy.
They most likely want to keep the Lycanroc showdown as a 1v1, so Pikachu vs Zoroark will most likely be a draw
 
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Silvally went down before Pikachu. That is fact according to the previews. That was Gladion's ace; his "invincible" Pokémon. And Pikachu has taken down Legendaries before.
Well yeah that's why I said Silvally was weakened, but of course substitutions are a thing you know or are you saying there was a preview that was shown recently of Silvally falling, which is NEW information to me, that I just found out, at this moment of replying (well give a take however long it took me to read this.

Oh and Zoroark? A poor man's substitute for Lucario. If Pikachu beat Mega Lucario, why can't it defeat a Zoroark?
Are we really going to underestimate Zoroark here despite presumably being Mohn's most powerful Pokemon and thus would likely be experienced.

I mean we have this as a scenario:

So yeah sure, Pikachu defeats Silvally, then battles against Lycanroc and loses, or battles against Zoroark and loses, meaning that its entirely up to Lycanroc, who has still never defeated Gladion's Lycanroc, and you want to throw in either a weakened Zoroark or a full health Zoroark to square on Ash's Lycanroc?

BUT......BUT hold on I'll finish this in my last paragraph of this post (it'll be in my clarification paragraph).


I think Gladion might have made a mistake by sending out Silvally first instead of saving him for last. You always save your best for last just to give the aura of intimidation and invincibility. Maybe that's why Melmetal was so important. To draw out Gladion's best Pokémon first rather than risk Gladion retaining a healthy Silvally to launch upon a weakened Ash's team.
As I mentioned it's still Pikachu against a full health Zoroark or Lycanroc with Ash's Lycanroc picking up where Pikachu left of. And as I've said, Ash's Lycanroc hasn't done too well against Gladion's Lycanroc, you want to argue Zororark being weak enough to be taken out by Ash's Lycanroc, because Zoroark might be too weak in general, maybe its too old.

Because Melmetal lost to Silvally, that means either Zoroark or Lycanroc can't get a win IF Ash wins. Do we really want to argue Gladion's weakest Pokemon here being Zoroark, which means he chose it because he wanted to, not because it had any battle merit.


You're talking about a Pokemon that has defeated Legendaries before, so why is Pikachu suddenly inferior to Gladion's Silvally and Zoroark?
Yet Pikachu is not invincible as we've seen multiple times. Pikachu has lost to Pokemon in this generation which aren't legendaries, I fail to see your point.


TO CLARIFY: I'm just talking about the realism of the battle, assuming Ash wins, I don't think its realistic or even fair on both sides if Melmetal just loses for no reason, because if Ash wins, as I've said, someone is suffering on Gladion's team, and that means they also don't get a win, and would've been pointless and detrimental to Gladion. Either that's Zoroark or Lycanroc, with the other being the one taking out Pikachu. Leaving it squarely on Lycanroc's shoulders. Which doesn't seem very realistic at all, since Ash's Lycanroc can't even beat Gladion's at full strength, even a weakened Lycanroc and a full health Zoroark wouldn't make sense, or a weakened Zoroark and a full health Lycanroc. And at this point Gladion's weakened Lycanroc being taken out by Ash's isn't going to be very impressive (if Ash loses).

So if Ash wins, which is Gladion's weakest Pokemon? And if Gladion wins, what Melmetal barely was able to close the gap between the power between the two, showing that Ash literally had no chance at all to defeat Gladion? Which then what, what about your arguments with Pikachu. If Ash loses, those arguments are as pointless as I already see them, because Pikachu isn't some invincible monster, he nearly lost to Guzma's Golisopod. I don't think Guzma's Golisopod can take down a legendary unless it would have a major advantage.
 
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Don't know why you're saying this when the battle with Kukui will be a full battle. Ash is already at a disadvantage by only having 5 Pokemon, take away Melmetal, and Ash is in the same boat as Gladion
We don't even know who the full battle is against. At the moment, it seems like the MR battle will be in SM140 and get interrupted by the Guzzlord.
because Pikachu isn't some invincible monster, he nearly lost to Guzma's Golisopod.
Eh no. Pikachu and Ash were completely in control of that battle, it was Guzma/Golisopod who were on thin rails and had to confront their fears of losing.
 
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As I mentioned it's still Pikachu against a full health Zoroark or Lycanroc with Ash's Lycanroc picking up where Pikachu left of. And as I've said, Ash's Lycanroc hasn't done too well against Gladion's Lycanroc, you want to argue Zororark being weak enough to be taken out by Ash's Lycanroc, because Zoroark might be too weak in general, maybe its too old.

Because Melmetal lost to Silvally, that means either Zoroark or Lycanroc can't get a win IF Ash wins. Do we really want to argue Gladion's weakest Pokemon here being Zoroark, which means he chose it because he wanted to, not because it had any battle merit.
Pikachu destroyed two uber Pokémon on Alain's team known as Tyrannitar and Metagross without help. I think he can handle a Zoroark. If it's Zoroark then Silvally, then Pikachu may be in deep trouble. But Silvally is taken out, leaving Gladion with only an untested Zoroark (hmmm, sounds like Melmetal) and a Lycanroc rivalry.

The consistent error that Ash's opponents made is assuming that Ash's new shiny star like Ash-Greninja or Melmetal is only the ace to worry about. Alain nearly lost his entire team because he underestimated Pikachu's persistence and power. If he hadn't taken out Pikachu with Charizard, his best Pokémon, then it's likely that Pikachu would have weaken Bisharp enough for Goodra to defeat (or worse, Pikachu defeats Bisharp), which would mean that Charizard would face against a healthy Goodra and an Ash-Greninja behind it.
 
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Pikachu destroyed two uber Pokémon on Alain's team known as Tyrannitar and Metagross without help. I think he can handle a Zoroark. If it's Zoroark then Silvally, then Pikachu may be in deep trouble. But Silvally is taken out, leaving Gladion with only an untested Zoroark (hmmm, sounds like Melmetal) and a Lycanroc rivalry.
Inter-series continuity isn’t really an argument in this case. Ash defeated a Latios using Pikachu and lost to an inexperienced Snivy immediately later in the next series.

Gladion has had Zoroark for a longer time than Ash has had with evolved Melmetal. Gladion is probably well acquainted with its battle style and has worked out the problems. He trained his Lycanroc enough to reduce confusion’s effect during outrage.
 
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Inter-series continuity isn’t really an argument in this case. Ash defeated a Latios using Pikachu and lost to an inexperienced Snivy immediately later in the next series
At the beginning of the series. After being drained of electricity by Zekrom. In contrast, we are at the end of S&M in a time where Pikachu's power have reached Peak-achu.
 
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Inter-series continuity isn’t really an argument in this case. Ash defeated a Latios using Pikachu and lost to an inexperienced Snivy immediately later in the next series.
After being sapped of electricity by Zekrom, and being left in a weaker state. I know it's a bad premise to open a new season with, but there was still an explanation for it. Besides, at the beginning of XY, Pikachu was already at pro levels at the least.
 
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At the beginning of the series. After being drained of electricity by Zekrom. In contrast, we are at the end of S&M in a time where Pikachu's power have reached Peak-achu.
I doubt the SM high-power levels are similar to those in XY. It hasn’t battled nearly enough and Golisopod almost dealt with it.

After being sapped of electricity by Zekrom, and being left in a weaker state.
It still had its non electric moves, though.
 
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Melmetal losing makes sense since it’s the thing's first battle after evolution, and it has a huge adjustment to make thanks to its body shape. Meltan's usual style is agile which it cannot use now.
I don't follow. Why does it make sense for it to loose because it evolved, when evolution is supposed to make a Pokémon stronger/show that that Pokémon has gotten stronger? Evolution may make a Pokémon less agile, which would alter their battle style, sure. But we've also seen cases where Pokémon still managed to maintain their agility (or regain it), despite evolving into heavier ones (such as with Ash's Grotle or Tierno's Blastoise).

I guess we'll have to wait for the episode to come out to know whether Melmetal keeps its mobility for sure or not, but, based on the previews, there's nothing concrete that says it doesn't.
 
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