Smogon (and others') banning of Pokemon; who are they to decide??

[Stratago]

@ Ranger Jack Walker: So you're saying the Event Raikou shouldn't be used because it can't adhere to a prescribed Smogon moveset due to its nature?
Anyway, this whole Aura Sphere thing has gone off on a tangent that diverted from from my point, which was that bans on things that require luck enforces the 'need' for tiers, and that without those bans a 'weak' Pokemon could go up against a 'strong' one with a more equal footing. I stand by what I said about people using DT on Pokemon which don't need things like it: that they're lames who take the game way too seriously if they resort to such cheap tactics just to win against someone.

@ ShadowBlaziken: You're right, Aura Sphere wouldn't affect Ghosts. Shadow Punch would work, I suppose... However, according to popular belief, it's 'too weak', with only 60 power, and only a few things learn it, which means that the move is no good.
Speaking of Ghosts, it seems to me like Jellicent would be a good counter to Terrakion, since it's got good typing and lot of HP. Really any ghost type that wasn't weak to rock (like Drifblim itself) would seem to me like a good choice.

 

[Ranger Jack Walker]

And who decides which Pokemon need DT and which don't? And you miss my point that DT isn't banned because it forces luck but because it removes player skill. That event Raikou can be used but it is unable to effectively use its best strategies.

and that without those bans a 'weak' Pokemon could go up against a 'strong' one with a more equal footing

This arguement makes no sense because nothing is stopping the 'stronger' Pokemon from using DT too. Who's going to make sure that these stronger Pokemon don't use it? And doesn't that make it several times worse than a complete ban because now only some Pokemon are allowed to use DT?

And Shadow Punch. How many Physically oriented ghosts are there? Banette, Dusknoir, Giratina, Shedinja, Sableye, Golurk. Out of these, how many can effectively use Shadow Punch? Dusknoir, Golurk and that's it. Both are underwhelming Pokemon at that. So yeah, Shadow Punch sucks.

 

[King Eriandor]

Although shadow punch isn't great, Faint attack can be used by bisharp, sneasel, cacturne, scrafty, and several physicaly oriented Non-dark types. This still doesn't make up for the pathetic base power but at least it hits.

nothing is stopping the 'stronger' Pokemon from using DT too.

I can agree with this, but I must mention that it really depends on the trainer. Many trainers won't bother teaching the 'strong' pokemon DT because the evasivness increase doesn't increase notably until the 2nd or 3rd conecutive time (without brightpowder). These turns will be considered 'wasted' and thus, will not be bothered with in the first place. More often do people chose to spam double team THEN pick the pokemon for the job than they teach their best offencive pokemon double team.

 

[Stratago]

And who decides which Pokemon need DT and which don't? And you miss my point that DT isn't banned because it forces luck but because it removes player skill.

Players decide, on a personal level. And I didn't miss your point, I just disagree with it. You dismissed moves with 100% accuracy as 'too weak', but there are also moves that decrease an opponent's evasion - Gravity, Haze, Clear Smog, Foresight, Miracle Eye, Odor Sleuth, Sweet Scent and Telekenesis - and other moves, abilities and items that raise accuracy, too, which counters it.

This arguement makes no sense because nothing is stopping the 'stronger' Pokemon from using DT too. Who's going to make sure that these stronger Pokemon don't use it? And doesn't that make it several times worse than a complete ban because now only some Pokemon are allowed to use DT?

I never said it using DT should be regulated by anyone - and it shouldn't be. People should decide for themselves - on an individual level - whether or not to use something. As I asked (somewhat rhetorically) before, what self-respecting player spams DT on a Pokemon which doesn't need it? (And no, Blissey does not need it.)

That event Raikou can be used but it is unable to effectively use its best strategies.

It's best strategies as defined by whom?

And Shadow Punch. How many Physically oriented ghosts are there? Banette, Dusknoir, Giratina, Shedinja, Sableye, Golurk. Out of these, how many can effectively use Shadow Punch? Dusknoir, Golurk and that's it. Both are underwhelming Pokemon at that. So yeah, Shadow Punch sucks.

Just because it isn't Hyper-Offense doesn't mean that it sucks. By the same logic, is the Quick Attack-family of moves worthless, too, since (except for ExtremeSpeed and Sucker Punch) they only have 40 power?

 

[Ranger Jack Walker]

@Stratago; Calm Mind is one of Raikou's better options from my own experience.

The only Pokemon that learn Shadow Punch are Gengar, Dusknoir and Golurk. Gengar has far too many options to be bothered with Shadow Punch. Neither Dusknoir nor Golurk are very good. Dusclops is a better Pokemon than Dusknoir and it has no place for Shadow Punch. Golurk is slow and has poor defenses so its not going to be tanking hits. None of them can use Shadow Punch effectively.

Oh yeah, Grimer learns it too but whatever.

 

[Envoy]

@ Ranger Jack Walker: So you're saying the Event Raikou shouldn't be used because it can't adhere to a prescribed Smogon moveset due to its nature?
Anyway, this whole Aura Sphere thing has gone off on a tangent that diverted from from my point, which was that bans on things that require luck enforces the 'need' for tiers, and that without those bans a 'weak' Pokemon could go up against a 'strong' one with a more equal footing. I stand by what I said about people using DT on Pokemon which don't need things like it: that they're lames who take the game way too seriously if they resort to such cheap tactics just to win against someone.

So, you agree that it's a cheap tactic?

 

[ShinyFlareon]

@Stratago; I think you are vastly underestimating the human capacity for doucebaggery. If people don't have restrictions put upon them, they're not going to restrict themselves. If you think that people who follow Smogon's rules now (and, by extension, Smogon themselves for creating those rules) are dicks, then you'd be in for a massive disappointment if your vision was put into place.

People have been telling you this for the whole thread. If you don't like Smogon's rules, don't play with people who follow them. It's not Smogon's fault that people are dicks, and the majority of them aren't. Your bad experiences with a few people don't give you the right to pass judgement on the group as a whole.

 

[Twinmold]

I think that people hate Smogon because they think that Smogon classifies Pokemon into "strong" and "weak" Pokemon, just like what Karen said foolish people did.

This is an absurd notion for several reasons, mostly because it relies on a misunderstanding of what tiers are.

Also, yes there are douchebags on Smogon. I think that the douchebags outnumber the amount of sane people, actually. Doesn't mean everyone on Smogon is an asshole.

 

[Professor Jacel]

Yea I enjoy Smogon's Rules just saying. You wanna Fight A Chlorophyl Sun Team?? Ya I do not or a Rain Team or a Baton Passing White Herb Shell Smash. The rules are in place simply to keep everything in order

EDIT- I meant Rain Team with Swift Swim not Chlorophyl lol That looked confusing to me..

 

[Vhazhiphor]

I don't remember if I've posted here, I think I haven't yet. But I guess I can throw my two cents into the pot.

Personally, I dislike Smogon's tiers, but I understand the usefulness they can have. I believe the main problem comes from people that, and I've seen a few of them here, argue as if Smogon's tiers and restrictions are the be all, end all authority. Saying that such a person can't use a move or moveset on something just because it's "banned". Or that Game Freak should or shouldn't do this or that, because "smogon says so" - not with those words, but the sentiment shows. Which is, to me, utterly ridiculous. You should be able to, and can, use whatever you want, so long as it's legitimate (Sky Drop would be the exception, considering the glitch it can cause, but I'd say that's more of a testing oversight than poor design). These aren't "Stop having fun" guys, they're scrubs.

Now, I will go and see what Smogon says about the Pokémon that I want to use, not because it's the best, but because different people see things differently, and chances are one of them thought up something that I might want to try. But I'll still use what I want and like over what's "the best", because even if you lose nine times out of ten, that one time you do win will be much more rewarding.

It all comes down to personal preference, like po pimpus said. But to play and let play isn't part of human nature. And since we all think we're the ones that are right and everyone else is wrong, especially in a situation like this one where you have people dedicated to exploring options for pokemon and their movesets and so on... well, it works. There's no denying that it works. So it follows that there are those among us who will try to force this on other people. Even if they're not a majority, we tend to focus on and remember the bad people. And after so many times of being told "I won't battle you because you <insert Smogon banned thing here>, noob", you can't help but start to build up a resentment towards those limits.

Either way, trying to force someone into not using Smogon's house rules is just as bad as trying to force those rules onto someone that doesn't like them. But good luck keeping people from trying.

 

[Stratago]

@ Grass Type Trainer: Isn't that what I said? Someone so obsessed with winning that they spam DT on a Haxorus or whatever - stuff that doesn't remotely need to use DT to stand a chance against its opponent - is cheap. I thought I was clear enough when I said it for everyone to understand...

@ Feliciano: My main issue in this is the elitist jerk-wads, which is another thing I've said repeatedly. And now I'll say I don't and won't play using Smogon's rules, sets, clauses or whatever. However, if I wind up playing against someone who does, I'm not going to not play with them; that's silly. My issue with Smogonners is in their elitist cliques who insist that their way is best and trying to control how other people play. (See the link in the post above this one.)

@ Vhazhiphor: Thanks for posting that link about scrubs, that's pretty much exactly the thing I'm talking about. I'm actually adding that page to my first post so new people to the thread can read it and maybe actually get what I'm trying to say.

 

[Stratago]

@Stratago GTT's point was that using Double Team is, in and of it self, a cheap tactic.

I know what he meant. I replied the way I did because it seemed to me that he was deliberately misinterpreting my comment, and, rather than replying in a snarky fashion, I just re-stated what I'd already said, that's all.

 

[Envoy]

@Stratago But who gets to decide which Pokemon is deemed "too strong" for Double Team? Why shouldn't I use it on my Blissey and Skarmory? Who says they're too strong for it?

 

[Saiga]

Trying to distinguish which Pokemon should and shouldn't ethically use double team is more effort than it's worth. Better to just keep it banned and stop douchebags from (ab)using it.

 

[Professor Jacel]

Yea you try to set up double team there is still a good chance you will get hit and get killed for that matter on that hit. It is pointless to set it up in my opinion but that is just me.

Just another my Opinion thing I really do not believe a Blissey can be to strong for that since a simple Punch kills it. Now its probably annoying to someone who only has a Special Attacker left but in general that is there problem for not keeping a Physical attacker alive. Also I will not say they are to strong but they can be annoying if you are not prepared for what they are doing. Somebody using a Hail Team with A Frosslass that is holding a Bright Powder and then uses double team is really annoying but it is not like it is over powered. Just it hit with Ariel Ace or Shadow Punch or one of those Not missing moves or be prepared for what there doing and just try to counteract there plan. I think Smogon bans pokemon who are have Snow Cloak or Sand Veil from actually using bright powder but I am not for sure about that.

 

[Stratago]

@Grass Type Trainer: You decide (and by 'you' I mean "the individual"). Blissey can have over 700 HP, and has a healing move, and as such I personally think that DT/Minimize is excessive on one, to say the least. Skarmory pretty much fits that description, too (it's able to take a hit and has Roost), and it also can learn Whirlwind to get rid of anything that's a real threat to it to allow a switch. But that's just my opinion. If you think that they're not tough enough without it, then, by all means, give DT to both of them. (It matters little to me, because I always make it a point to have something like Aura Sphere on one of my Pokemon when I battle on WiFi.)

@Saiga: Yes, DT abuse happens, mostly by 'Winning-Is-Everything' losers, and those types can (and almost always do) spoil fun for people. I still don't think that it's a reason to ban it outright. Granted, banning DT makes more sense than banning Moody (Smogon basically admits they're afraid of Bidoofs on this page), but I digress.

@Professor Jacel: It seems that moves like Shadow Punch are in disfavor amongst people because they are 'too weak' or 'nothing can use them effectively'. (I guess they forgot about Weavile and Bisharp.)

 

[Ranger Jack Walker]

That still doesn't answer the question: Who is going to stop you from using DT on Blissey. You are either not expereinced in human douchebaggery or are far too idealistic to think that 'morals' and 'not being cheap' is going to stop people from using cheap tactics to win if there is no other thing other than morals holding them back.

And I'm tired of repeating myself but 'too much luck' is not the reason people want to ban DT. Its 'too little skill'. One lucky turn can change the battle irreversibly. Getting lucky requires no skill. We might as well be tossing coins or rolling dice. This is the reason DT is banned but critical hits and high-power-but-low-accuracy moves aren't.

 

[Envoy]

@Grass Type Trainer: You decide (and by 'you' I mean "the individual"). Blissey can have over 700 HP, and has a healing move, and as such I personally think that DT/Minimize is excessive on one, to say the least. Skarmory pretty much fits that description, too (it's able to take a hit and has Roost), and it also can learn Whirlwind to get rid of anything that's a real threat to it to allow a switch. But that's just my opinion. If you think that they're not tough enough without it, then, by all means, give DT to both of them. (It matters little to me, because I always make it a point to have something like Aura Sphere on one of my Pokemon when I battle on WiFi.)

So you have no problem whatsoever with people using DT on Haxorus then? I mean, its defenses are pathetic. DT would patch up that weakness.

 

[Professor Jacel]

@Grass Type Trainer: You decide (and by 'you' I mean "the individual"). Blissey can have over 700 HP, and has a healing move, and as such I personally think that DT/Minimize is excessive on one, to say the least. Skarmory pretty much fits that description, too (it's able to take a hit and has Roost), and it also can learn Whirlwind to get rid of anything that's a real threat to it to allow a switch. But that's just my opinion. If you think that they're not tough enough without it, then, by all means, give DT to both of them. (It matters little to me, because I always make it a point to have something like Aura Sphere on one of my Pokemon when I battle on WiFi.)

So you have no problem whatsoever with people using DT on Haxorus then? I mean, its defenses are pathetic. DT would patch up that weakness.

Just curious but there are people who actually do that with Haxorus? I never have saw it yet and was just wondering.

I also would like to state something here. Skarmory is Defensive by all Means just hit it with a Special Move. It is weak to fire and Electric attacks. Flamethrower and Thunderbolt. Also if you know it will roost. Then hit it with Drain Punch or Mach Punch it turns into a Pure steel at that point and if with good defense I have killed them With Closecombat or Drain Punch.

Also you are saying it has Access to roost with its good defense. Ferrothorn Pretty Good Defense and Special Defense it can use Rest and alot of them use Chesto berries for that matter. There are alot more pokemon that can take hits that have access to healing.

 

[Stratago]

@Ranger Jack Walker: I'm getting tired of repeating myself, too. I have already answered that question more than once. My answer to your question was that an individual's self-respect would decide if they used it. There doesn't need to be an organization to govern what's 'fair' and what isn't over something like Pokemon, for God's sake. Besides, Pokemon each only get 4 moves; DT seems like a waste (to me) on many Pokemon because of this reason alone. And sure, any idiot can spam DT, but if they abuse it for the sake of winning at all costs, then they're pathetic and likely know it themselves. (Well, that's not true; most basement-dwellers like that are so shallow and ignorant that they probably don't even see it - you may just have me there.)
However - DT is in no way unbeatable. One could use Mist, Haze, Toxic, a Red Card, Taunt (especially in conjunction with Prankster), Clear Smog (which never misses), Foresight, Encore, Mind Reader, Lock On, Odor Sleuth, or (once again) a move that never misses. (And before you say, yet again, that they suck, consider how many people use Rapid Spin for it's effect.) You could also employ a Lens item, or the abilities CompoundEyes, No Guard or Unaware, though I suppose you'll argue that they're too remote, or the Pokemon who have them are too weak. (Remember, though, that Smogon has a mighty fear of Bidoofs.) Additionally, you could fight fire with fire and use Psych Up - it doesn't solve your problem, but if they want to be aggravating then they deserve a taste of their own medicine. Lastly, since you ignored me about this last time, there are just as many (if not more) ways to boost accuracy, which functionally counter evasion boosts. Consider this scenario: DT x6 vs. Hone Claws x6. Who do you think is coming out on top of that one?
Using DT uses a turn, during which they're open to attack. A quick sweeper could nail a DT abuser before it has the time to set up, preventing it in the first place. The only time a single use of DT would make any real difference is if you relied on one of those high-power/low-accuracy moves you mentioned. Besides, without luck or chance, the game loses its excitement, doesn't it? If everything becomes based on statistics and probability, we may as well be playing AdvancedAlgebraMon.
Part of the strategy of Pokemon (specifically multiplayer in this instance) is identifying threats and preparing for them, knowing full well there are always going to be more possible threats than any one team can answer. The so-called 'metagame' that Smogon has created kills the need to find counters for stuff, so no counters are found - that doesn't mean they don't exist. Andnd if they're going to ban DT on the grounds of 'cheapness' or 'over-centralizing', they should ban Protect, Toxic (with or without spikes attached), and healing moves. (Hell, why not ban ALL moves that can inflict a status like paralysis as an added effect?)
And for the record, I'm more 'familiar with the depths of human douchebaggery' than just about anyone you'll ever meet. However, even though I'm a hard-core cynic, I try my best not to be; that much negative energy is bad for the soul.

@Grass Type Trainer: I get the feeling that you're deliberately being obtuse, but if you really think that Haxorus is that weak, then yes, you should use DT on it. Lots of Smogonners will call you a lame or a n00b if you do, though, so prepare yourself.