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Smogon (and others') banning of Pokemon; who are they to decide??

Is Evasion truly broken, or are there counters to it that can be used?

  • Yes! Double Team / Minimize is evil, and should be banned forever!

    Votes: 3 21.4%
  • No! There are are 15 moves that counter it (+5 more, depending) and items/abilities, too!

    Votes: 11 78.6%

  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .
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Not a Power Ranger
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Again, an individual's self respect is not going to triumph a desire to win with minimal effort. Thats what DT is: Minimal Effort and zero skill.
 
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@Ranger Jack Walker: I'm getting tired of repeating myself, too. I have already answered that question more than once. My answer to your question was that an individual's self-respect would decide if they used it. There doesn't need to be an organization to govern what's 'fair' and what isn't over something like Pokemon, for God's sake. Besides, Pokemon each only get 4 moves; DT seems like a waste (to me) on many Pokemon because of this reason alone. And sure, any idiot can spam DT, but if they abuse it for the sake of winning at all costs, then they're pathetic and likely know it themselves. (Well, that's not true; most basement-dwellers like that are so shallow and ignorant that they probably don't even see it - you may just have me there.)
However - DT is in no way unbeatable. One could use Mist, Haze, Toxic, a Red Card, Taunt (especially in conjunction with Prankster), Clear Smog (which never misses), Foresight, Encore, Mind Reader, Lock On, Odor Sleuth, or (once again) a move that never misses. (And before you say, yet again, that they suck, consider how many people use Rapid Spin for it's effect.) You could also employ a Lens item, or the abilities CompoundEyes, No Guard or Unaware, though I suppose you'll argue that they're too remote, or the Pokemon who have them are too weak. (Remember, though, that Smogon has a mighty fear of Bidoofs.) Additionally, you could fight fire with fire and use Psych Up - it doesn't solve your problem, but if they want to be aggravating then they deserve a taste of their own medicine. Lastly, since you ignored me about this last time, there are just as many (if not more) ways to boost accuracy, which functionally counter evasion boosts. Consider this scenario: DT x6 vs. Hone Claws x6. Who do you think is coming out on top of that one?
Using DT uses a turn, during which they're open to attack. A quick sweeper could nail a DT abuser before it has the time to set up, preventing it in the first place. The only time a single use of DT would make any real difference is if you relied on one of those high-power/low-accuracy moves you mentioned. Besides, without luck or chance, the game loses its excitement, doesn't it? If everything becomes based on statistics and probability, we may as well be playing AdvancedAlgebraMon.
Part of the strategy of Pokemon (specifically multiplayer in this instance) is identifying threats and preparing for them, knowing full well there are always going to be more possible threats than any one team can answer. The so-called 'metagame' that Smogon has created kills the need to find counters for stuff, so no counters are found - that doesn't mean they don't exist. Andnd if they're going to ban DT on the grounds of 'cheapness' or 'over-centralizing', they should ban Protect, Toxic (with or without spikes attached), and healing moves. (Hell, why not ban ALL moves that can inflict a status like paralysis as an added effect?)
And for the record, I'm more 'familiar with the depths of human douchebaggery' than just about anyone you'll ever meet. However, even though I'm a hard-core cynic, I try my best not to be; that much negative energy is bad for the soul.
Your attack missed gg. You can talk about innumerable and impossible scenarios like garchomp setting up +6 honeclaws in front of something like DT Vaporeon, but at the end of the day, it is a proved fact that dt is broken and one person cribbing does not change it. All your suggestions like using Aura sphere users centralize the metagame.

@Grass Type Trainer: I get the feeling that you're deliberately being obtuse, but if you really think that Haxorus is that weak, then yes, you should use DT on it. Lots of Smogonners will call you a lame or a n00b if you do, though, so prepare yourself.
The theory of DT Haxorus is simple. Use a hax with dd, dt, taunt and d-claw. Use dt + taunt against defensive teams and use dd against offensive teams. Even skarmory, "a counter" will fall to hax here. Fast offensive mons will be massacred by dd + dclaw. Don't mindlessly use DT, thats the slogan. Use it at the correct opportunity and you will win.

If you don't know the theory, I doubt you can say much about it, can you? As for, smogonners calling GTT lame or a n00b, majority of the users here are smogonnites or pro-smogon(if you haven't realized). I doubt any user here calls GTT a noob. Ha, I am a smogonite and I freely say he is my best pal here. So, yeah, you don't know much about smogon, smogonites, or the way they function. Stop putting things in every one else's mouth. Please.
 
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@Stratago Hang on a second. Right here:

@ Grass Type Trainer: Isn't that what I said? Someone so obsessed with winning that they spam DT on a Haxorus or whatever - stuff that doesn't remotely need to use DT to stand a chance against its opponent - is cheap. I thought I was clear enough when I said it for everyone to understand...
your sentiments clearly lean toward DT Haxorus being cheap.

I'm getting mixed messages here.
 
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I find it hard to believe that you can call yourself a cynic but still believe that people will use their own self respect to stop themselves from using cheap tactics.

Then again, what one person considers cheap may not be what someone else thinks. You wanting people to not use DT on things that don't need it but calling Smogon scrubs for enforcing their own rules within their own site is strange.

I'll say this again, Smogon does not force its rules on anyone. Other people believeing that Smogon's rules are official and enforcing them is neither Smogon's fault nor their problem.

You have a problem with people who force smogon rules on you? Tell them that they are assholes to their face and stop associating with such people. Or better yet, play in the Uber tier where no Pokemon is banned.
 
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Sigh. This debate is like arguing religion or politics. People believe what they want to believe and since neither side is willing to give the other a chance, we wind up going around in circles. Ultimately, no one here is "right." The beauty of Pokemon is that it is such a versatile and customizable game that you can build your team however you see fit. The rub is that you may not always find people who see things your way.

I'm going to add my personal thoughts here, take them for what you will-- I personally believe that the metagame would be better served if everything was allowed and tested properly: Evasion, OHKOs, Drizzle+Swift Swim, Excadrill, Thundurus, Garchomp, etc. Similar to the way PBR does its Random Battles.

"But Po, all that stuff has been tested and deemed too overpowering!"

You're partially correct. Evasion has never been properly tested. Not since RBY has it even been allowed in most standard battles, when it was unequivocally broken(one DT made 100% moves go to 50%, and Swift was the only never-miss attack). All those abilities and 'mons that were banned were tested in sterile environments where they were never distinctly challenged. Due to the sheep-like nature of most players, people never even tried to come up with solutions beyond waiting for someone else to come up with a counter or counter-strategy. People cry about weather, but how many of you have ever actually tried to counter it? Much like the "never-miss" attacks, people have this stigma about using a move-slot to activate a weather effect, due to it not doing damage. There is this belief among players that if it doesn't do damage or boost a stat, it is a waste of a moveslot. Speaking from personal experience, I have never had a problem with things like weather abusing, Garchomp/Thundurus/Excadrill, but I can see where someone who ascribes to the Smogon-style of battling would have problems... The way I play is a little bit different, and it has allowed me to remain flexible enough to not have the kinds of horror stories I hear some people tell about those guys.

OHKOs are another aspect of the games I don't understand why its banned. People say its because of the luck factor involved, but you face similar odds dealing with a critical ruining your Calm Mind Suicune setting up, or missing that Focus Blast with your Gengar against that 35% health Tyranitar that is about to Pursuit you for the win. I understand how minimizing luck is a philosophical standard for a competitor, but in a game like Pokemon where everything including damage is random, I don't see how you can complain about luck. You might as well just design your own game sans all the "hax" you loathe so deeply.

That is the end of my personal philosophy on battling. I'm about being flexible and adapting to the situation at hand. However, I understand that my style is not the mainstream way of doing things, and I never try to force my beliefs on others. I think the Smogon model is flawed, and its logic somewhat hypocritical, but I would not say that my way is "better." It is simply different from theirs. My way is probably flawed as well, but it is how I have fun. The problem with trying to standardize a game as random as Pokemon can be, is that you will never truly be rid of all the "hax,"(really hate that word) merely, you create a logical fallacy that can't truly be defended beyond emotional and, ultimately, irrational arguments. The reverse is also true--In that trying to argue for a more "pure" -for lack of a better term- metagame, you fall into the same emotional appeals that make your argument lose its weight.

TL;DR: Everybody is right, and at the same time, everybody is wrong. Just play how you want, but don't ignore the other side-- You might be able to learn something from one another.
 
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I note not one of you actually acknowledged any of my ways to counter DT, instead choosing to nitpick about other things. Speaking of which, I forgot about the moves Chip Away & Sacred Sword, and that Steamroller and Stomp work against Minimize kinda like how EQ works against Dig. Anyway...

@Grass Type Trainer: I said if YOU thought Haxorus was weak to teach it DT. I don't think it needs it.

@Lord Clowncrete: My response to GTT was facetious. You don't have to be condescending. (Besides, it just backs me up.)

@Ranger Jack Walker: ...So then, am I right about countering DT (a single move which is a TM) with Hone Claws (likewise a TM) and all the other things I mentioned, or am I still wrong...?
 
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All hail me!
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Sigh. This debate is like arguing religion or politics. People believe what they want to believe and since neither side is willing to give the other a chance, we wind up going around in circles. Ultimately, no one here is "right." The beauty of Pokemon is that it is such a versatile and customizable game that you can build your team however you see fit. The rub is that you may not always find people who see things your way.

I'm going to add my personal thoughts here, take them for what you will-- I personally believe that the metagame would be better served if everything was allowed and tested properly: Evasion, OHKOs, Drizzle+Swift Swim, Excadrill, Thundurus, Garchomp, etc. Similar to the way PBR does its Random Battles.

"But Po, all that stuff has been tested and deemed too overpowering!"

You're partially correct. Evasion has never been properly tested. Not since RBY has it even been allowed in most standard battles, when it was unequivocally broken(one DT made 100% moves go to 50%, and Swift was the only never-miss attack). All those abilities and 'mons that were banned were tested in sterile environments where they were never distinctly challenged. Due to the sheep-like nature of most players, people never even tried to come up with solutions beyond waiting for someone else to come up with a counter or counter-strategy. People cry about weather, but how many of you have ever actually tried to counter it? Much like the "never-miss" attacks, people have this stigma about using a move-slot to activate a weather effect, due to it not doing damage. There is this belief among players that if it doesn't do damage or boost a stat, it is a waste of a moveslot. Speaking from personal experience, I have never had a problem with things like weather abusing, Garchomp/Thundurus/Excadrill, but I can see where someone who ascribes to the Smogon-style of battling would have problems... The way I play is a little bit different, and it has allowed me to remain flexible enough to not have the kinds of horror stories I hear some people tell about those guys.

OHKOs are another aspect of the games I don't understand why its banned. People say its because of the luck factor involved, but you face similar odds dealing with a critical ruining your Calm Mind Suicune setting up, or missing that Focus Blast with your Gengar against that 35% health Tyranitar that is about to Pursuit you for the win. I understand how minimizing luck is a philosophical standard for a competitor, but in a game like Pokemon where everything including damage is random, I don't see how you can complain about luck. You might as well just design your own game sans all the "hax" you loathe so deeply.

That is the end of my personal philosophy on battling. I'm about being flexible and adapting to the situation at hand. However, I understand that my style is not the mainstream way of doing things, and I never try to force my beliefs on others. I think the Smogon model is flawed, and its logic somewhat hypocritical, but I would not say that my way is "better." It is simply different from theirs. My way is probably flawed as well, but it is how I have fun. The problem with trying to standardize a game as random as Pokemon can be, is that you will never truly be rid of all the "hax,"(really hate that word) merely, you create a logical fallacy that can't truly be defended beyond emotional and, ultimately, irrational arguments. The reverse is also true--In that trying to argue for a more "pure" -for lack of a better term- metagame, you fall into the same emotional appeals that make your argument lose its weight.

TL;DR: Everybody is right, and at the same time, everybody is wrong. Just play how you want, but don't ignore the other side-- You might be able to learn something from one another.
Evasion was tested in the fr/lg era if i am correct.
 
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Has anyone else noticed a pattern, here...?

Me: "I think Smogon's ban on (subject) is unnecessary."
Smogon Neophyte: "You don't know what you're talking about. Without the ban on (subject) the metagame would be a wreck."
Me: "How do you figure? (This) is a counter for (subject)."
S.N.: "(This) (* - insert condition from list here).
*overcentralizes the metagame *is only learned by a few things *is too weak to use *Is unfair / cheap
*takes all the 'skill' out of the game *wastes a move-slot *is for n00bs
Me: "What about using (lists a number of other things)? If there's so many things, it's hardly (* - insert nearly any condition from above list here, with appropriate grammar edits).
S.N.: (Ignores list and obstinately repeats self.)
Me (frustrated): "Okay, fine. How about (lists more things) then? And (reiterates fist list), since you didn't respond to them? With that many options, it's not overcentralizing / could be learned by lots of things / etc."
Random person: "I think (employs logic and good common sense, says both sides are right, etc.)
(*Unfortunately, this voice of reason is largely ignored, unless quoted for something that supports one side's argument - and before anyone says it, yes, I do it too because my pride is hurt at this point and I want someone to at least acknowledge that I even MIGHT be right*)
S.N.: (Changes subject, and then...) "YOU said (comment taken out of context from X posts ago) before. You're contradicting yourself." (Ultimately ignores list again.)
Me (annoyed): No, that ISN'T what I said - I SAID (this). (Sarcastic remark which mocks what S.N. has said to me.)
S.N.: (Takes sarcastic remark seriously for the sake of their argument, and then says,) "Well if you don't like our rules, then you don't have to play with us."
...Repeat, ad nauseum.

This circular argument is not going anywhere. You can argue all you want that every team will end up carrying an Evasion Pokemon, and a Pokemon solely for the purpose of countering Evasion Pokemon if DT isn't banned. You may use Garchomp as an example - he's pretty easy to use as an example - since apparently in D/P/Pt everyone thought they had to have both a Garchomp of their own and a Garchomp counter (which was probably something like a Skill Link Cloyster with Icicle Spear, a Weavile with Ice Shard, or whatever). This Ice-Type is, of course, completely useless outside that one purpose, and everyone said that, as such, it overcentralized the metagame by making the it revolve around this truism.
However, allowing stuff like DT would force people to make tough decisions ("will I use that even though it sucks for other purposes?") instead of just picking the 6 best Pokemon from a certain set. (Rain team? There's a set team of 6 that nearly every rain team is composed of. Hyper-Offense? Set of 6. Sandstorm? Set of 6. Sun? Set of 6. Stall? Set of 6. Etc.) That would actually make the metagame diverse, as there would be no generic cookie-cutter sets for whatever theme there is. One could decide to take no evasion Pokemon to make counter-evasion Pokemon useless, for example, which would breed all the more strategic planning, and would require skill.
Regardless, this whole DT thing has gotten tiresome. I feel like I've made my point about it - it's not unbeatable by a long shot, and has multiple counters - and it's up to you whether or not you you acknowledge it or cling hidebound to Smogon's ban-happy philosophy. I'm moving on to other things about Smogon which bug me, now; maybe I'll go on about the Sleep Clause, or touch on the absurdity of Moody getting the axe (Run away! It's an emo Bidoof!), yet allowing Accupressure, which doesn't even lower any stats.
 
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Okay, lets list your 'counters' to DT:

As an example, I'm going to take a DT Magic Bounce Espeon:

Foresight: Reflected by MB

Mist: Reflected by MB

Haze: Reflected by MB

Toxic: Reflected by MB

Taunt: Reflected by MB

Clear Smog: Reflected by MB

Encore: Reflected by MB

Odor Sleuth: Reflected by MB

Mind Reader: Only useful for one turn. You'll need to use it again next time you want to attack wasting a turn.

Lock On: Only useful for one turn. You'll need to use it again next time you want to attack wasting a turn.

I'll even add possible counters that you didn't list but nevertheless wouldn't work anyway.

Roar and Whirlwind: Both are reflected by MB

No Guard: Only Pokemon who can effectively use this is Machamp

Unaware: The Pokemon that get this suck. Bibaral, Swoobat, Quagsire, etc

Compound Eyes: Correct me if I'm wrong but this only affects the moves accuracy. Your opponents evasion boosts remain the same. Your moves will still be affected bu DT just like moves whose given accuracy is 100 can still miss when used against DT.

Items like Red Card and the Lens: Requires sacrifcing an item slot. You'd be surprised just how weak several Pokemon's moves become when not boosted by the likes of a Life Orb, Choice Band or a Choice Scarf.

Wide Lens only raises move accuracy by 10% and Zoom Lens raises by 20% but only if your Pokemon is slower and may run into the same problem Compound Eyes has. Some one please verify this.
Red Card is a one time use item only. Sucks if all of your opponent just switches back in when he gets a free turn (either through sacrifice or prediction) and starts spamming DT again and you're left with no way to counter it and your Pokemon no longer has a useful item.

Pysch Up is the only move capable of 'countering' though it still does not actually counter it.

So if we allow DT, I can bet anything that the most prominent user of it will be Magic Bounce Espeon, taking its troll-like qualities to an all new high because nothing you listed counters this particular Pokemon using DT. So OVERCENTRALIZING.

Perfect Accuracy Moves: These are really weak moves aside from Aura Sphere but that has a very limited distribution. I think you're vastly underestimating just how weak they are. Unless they are super effective, a tank can probably take as many as 5-6 hits from these moves. This is not a counter.

Ban all status ailments? But they are easy to counter.

Burn: Meaningless to a Special Attacker. An entire type is immune to this ailment. So there are far more counters.

Paralysis is resisted by an entire type since Thunder Wave is the only reliable way of paralyzing your opponent.

Poison: Regular Poison is pathetic. 2 Types are immune to poisoning and one of them is the Steel type which is one of the dominant types in the games.

Sleep: Only reliable way of inducing sleep is Spore which few Pokemon learn and Dark Void which is ubers only. Many Pokemon use Rest-Talk and this is without considering the chance being put to sleep by your opponent. Can't a put a sleeping Pokemon to sleep can we?

Confusion: Just switch out.

Attract: Just switch out.

Ban Healing moves? They only heal half your health (most of the time) and the Pokemon that use this are generally the slower ones. You can't just spam this move as your opponent is most likely faster and will KO you before you can heal many times.

Protect: Only gauranteed to work when not used in continuously.

If everything becomes based on statistics and probability, we may as well be playing AdvancedAlgebraMon.
Like I said, if we allow DT, we might as well be tossing coins.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm done. I'm tired of replying to you just as you are I'm sure.

Your initial complaint about tiers was resolved by users suggesting you play in Ubers where nothing is banned.

Can't find enough who play Ubers? Play the Simulator. Don't won't to play like that? That's not my problem nor do I really care.

And I do not appreciate being generalized as a Smogon Neophyte or being called a Smogon Worshipper. I have refrained from calling you a Smogon hater who hates for the sake of hating and I'd like to see you not call me names too. Even if I have called you hater, its probably very early in the thread and i have not repeated that if I had said it.

So hopefully, this is my last post on this thread but I will be viewing it anyway.
 

Yun

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TL;DR: Everybody is right, and at the same time, everybody is wrong. Just play how you want, but don't ignore the other side-- You might be able to learn something from one another.
People. this seems like an argument ending statement here. Again, it all chalks down to opinion. There are people who will act elitist towards you for this, but here's how I look at it: this is one game out of the millions of others. Elitism is everywhere.

I say this - if you wish to listen to Smogon, more power to you. If you don't, again; more power to you. I don't listen to Smogon, but I've told many a smogonnite that "I don't have to answer to your rules." If you don't like it... just get better with your own strategy. You see, the point of teambuilding is to create a team that not only has synergy, but can cover for the things you fear can hurt you. You can use any Pokemon you wish.

Really, arguing that Smogon is bad is... pointless? Is that a good word? Eh. I digress. But really, they work hard for their own community, so more power to them. You don't like it, just battle on your own accord.
@Stratago; - No offense dude... but stating that all smogon peeps will treat you badly based on you not using their sets is... just not true. Most smogon people want to see unusual sets. It brings in excitement. However, I understand. I've met very arrogant smogonites... and I've beaten a lot of them.

A real battler doesn't let the face of adversity get him/her down. It's like Final Fantasy; there are moves (Fire to Firaga = Ember to Flamethrower) that are better than others, but most serve a purpose. Just like Pokemon. Most serve a purpose; those purposes differ in prominence, however.

Well, I'm straddling the fence. I never want to down people's opinion.

So, I'll leave with this. My overall opinion.

It's just Pokemon; a game. It won't get you into Harvard. No need to hate.
 
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@Ranger Jack Walker
I figured I'd show you this as a parting gift. It's the calculation to determine whether an attack hits, straight off of Bulbapedia. Abase is the base accuracy of the move, Accuracy is the current accuracy stat of the user, and Evasion is the current evasion stat of the target. If P is greater than 1, the move will hit - meaning that if accuracy is boosted to the same level as evasion, the boosts neutralize one another. Ergo, Hone Claws by itself is a counter to DT. (You didn't include it in your list.) And as I edited into my list above, Chip Away & Sacred Sword hit regardless of stat changes (how popular is Terrakion?), Steamroller and Stomp deal x2 damage to anything that uses Minimize (and ignore evasion boosts granted by it), and furthermore, since Weather is so popular, Blizzard, Thunder and Hurricane all hit 100% of the time under the right circumstances.
Magic Bounce would mess up a lot of the things I listed, and it's a very clever example of how one could abuse DT (kudos for that), but even it's not perfect.
If you don't like my poll, don't vote in it. Isn't that the same thing as 'if you don't like their rules, don't play with them?'
Your chief arguments against what I've said have been that 'overcentralization' is evil and that certain moves/abilities shouldn't even be considered because of it, and that luck should be removed as much as possible, both of which are tenets held in high regard by their community, and quoted frequently as a means of justification by their supporters. In short, if I implied you were a 'Smogonner', then it's because you acted like one. And if it makes me a hater for not listening to a group of people who refuse to listen to me, then I guess I'm a hater. If I'm an idealist for believing that a person's own self-respect would prevent them from spamming non-stop cheap tactics, then I guess I'm an idealist, too, but I guess that means that the people who put on the VGCs are too, since they don't enforce an Evasion Clause.

...Nor do they enforce a Sleep Clause, which in effect screws up any Pokemon who would use Dream Eater or Nightmare. A ban on Dark Void (which prevents Smeargle abuse) is as close as the VGC gets to one. Just like with anything else, Sleep is a status that can be annoying, but isn't game-breaking, yet Smogon bans people from putting more than one of their opponents' Pokemon to sleep.
As I've said elsewhere in this thread, team-making is about taking into consideration the plethora of possible situations one may encounter (sleep being one of them), and build a team while knowing the whole time that you'll never be able to counter everything. Smogon's solution to this seems to be to just ban whatever they don't want to have to plan for.
There. The subject has been officially changed. I mean it this time.
 
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@Ranger Jack Walker: Just as you seem adept at ignoring my point about accuracy. And it felt less like advice and more like an elitist brushing-off, in most cases.
Now, as I said, the topic is "Sleep Clause".
 
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Alright I'll stay.

I already pointed out that Evasion Boosts are stupidly easy to abuse by Espeon especially. It's not 'ignoring a point' if I can put up arguements against it. But numerous people have suggested that you don't play with Smogon rules. Your response has been along the lines of 'other people enforce it' and that's all.

As for Sleep Clause, a Scarfed Smeargle with Spore can shut down your entire team if their were no Sleep Clause. There are fewer ways to counter such a situation. When you know that only one of your Pokemon can be put to sleep, its easy to sacrifice a Pokemon when you know that there's a Spore coming your way or alternately, abuse it by sending in Rest Talker or a Pokemon with Insomnia or something. But when all of your Pokemon can be put to sleep, this tactic doesn't work because it would mean creating an entire team of Rest Talkers or Pokemon with Insomnia/Early Bird. There's something seriously wrong when your entire team revolves around a single move. Thats more centralizing and even less diversity.
 
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Yep Sleep Clause is A Great thing. If you do not want the sleep clause on then you are an Idiot.
 
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Just read this. Old blog post by a pretty well-known battler on Youtube, but one that pretty much sums up all the arguments attempting to be made in this clusterfuck of a thread that refuses to die.
 
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...

Quoted by your friendly neighborhood TVTroper.
on Internet Backdraft (the Pokemon section): "For some nuclear-grade heat, just go onto some Pokemon-related board and mention Smogon. Sit back and enjoy the show."

anyone care to "Pass the Popcorn"?
 
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