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Smogon (and others') banning of Pokemon; who are they to decide??

Is Evasion truly broken, or are there counters to it that can be used?

  • Yes! Double Team / Minimize is evil, and should be banned forever!

    Votes: 3 21.4%
  • No! There are are 15 moves that counter it (+5 more, depending) and items/abilities, too!

    Votes: 11 78.6%

  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .
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Conformity is Overrated.
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It's not your opinion that upsets people, if that's even the correct way to describe my feelings on this. It's your constant complaining about issues (like other people enforcing Smogon Rules) that neither Smogon nor we can be faulted for.
*munchmunchmunch. gulp*

Well, damn... if that be the case, why not just let this thread end at 17 pages (according to my view)? at this point, it's pretty much been established that when "opinions" are involved, it's the majority vs the minority... all it is is addressing someone's complaint, which gets another complaint on top of that, and the process just gets bigger. I think if people want to battle the way they want, then fine, screw 'em... it's not like absolutely EVERYONE instinctively plays the same rules all the time (if it was, I'd be scared).

personally, I could care less about what rules I play... you want to ban multiple sleeping, fine, I make one snooze and unleash all hell, expecting to dish out pain either way... you want to ban multiples of something, fine, it might help promote creativity on my part to add some variety. if you want to come at me with some sextet of cloned Pokemon, then I bust out my trump card and own each and every one of them...

I believe the series has some variety for a reason, and if I find something I like that someone ELSE doesn't: "fine, do what you want, I won't waste my time bickering with someone like you."

it's amazing how much stress you can avoid by not giving a damn...
 
total eclipse of the heart
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Moody is banned because again, it takes no skill to use effectively. Completely luck based and zero skill. There is no denying this.
To be fair, I think they shouldn't have banned it as they did. If they gave it more time, like they do wiith just about everything that's suspect, then its usage would have declined. I'd agree with you if people didn't just abide by that mindset whenever they feel like it. Pokemon like Togekiss that are bulky enough to get a Thunder Wave off, and then proceed to spam powerful Air Slashes, wager the battle completely on luck.

It's not just that though, is it? Yesterday I fought a guy with a Lanturn that had Confuse Ray, Thunder Wave and Waterfall. I didn't see the fourth slot, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it was Attract. If so many people have a problem with Moody, a strategy that is based on luck initially, then why is deliberate haxxing alright?

I realise luck is part of the game, and a crucial part at that, but I think abusing it with Serene Grace or other things of the sort, is no better than Moody.
I've been quiet this whole thread, and while I'm with Ranger Jack and the like, I do admit Synthesis has a point. oAo Why is it that evasion hax is bad, but deliberately using flinch-hax just fine? Especially if it's a case of parafusion+flinch? Forcing your foe to flinch too much is no better than spamming DT I should think.
 
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Moody is banned because again, it takes no skill to use effectively. Completely luck based and zero skill. There is no denying this.
To be fair, I think they shouldn't have banned it as they did. If they gave it more time, like they do wiith just about everything that's suspect, then its usage would have declined. I'd agree with you if people didn't just abide by that mindset whenever they feel like it. Pokemon like Togekiss that are bulky enough to get a Thunder Wave off, and then proceed to spam powerful Air Slashes, wager the battle completely on luck.

It's not just that though, is it? Yesterday I fought a guy with a Lanturn that had Confuse Ray, Thunder Wave and Waterfall. I didn't see the fourth slot, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it was Attract. If so many people have a problem with Moody, a strategy that is based on luck initially, then why is deliberate haxxing alright?

I realise luck is part of the game, and a crucial part at that, but I think abusing it with Serene Grace or other things of the sort, is no better than Moody.
I've been quiet this whole thread, and while I'm with Ranger Jack and the like, I do admit Synthesis has a point. oAo Why is it that evasion hax is bad, but deliberately using flinch-hax just fine? Especially if it's a case of parafusion+flinch? Forcing your foe to flinch too much is no better than spamming DT I should think.
There are many reasons, but I'll just list a few simple ones:

1) Nearly every single Pokemon can learn DT, while Paraflinching is limited in distribution

2) The Pokemon that Paraflinch have counters

3) It takes no skill to spam DT, while the flinching/paralyzing moves have Pokemon that resist them, so skill is required in using your paraflincher.
 
._.
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Moody is banned because again, it takes no skill to use effectively. Completely luck based and zero skill. There is no denying this.
To be fair, I think they shouldn't have banned it as they did. If they gave it more time, like they do wiith just about everything that's suspect, then its usage would have declined. I'd agree with you if people didn't just abide by that mindset whenever they feel like it. Pokemon like Togekiss that are bulky enough to get a Thunder Wave off, and then proceed to spam powerful Air Slashes, wager the battle completely on luck.

It's not just that though, is it? Yesterday I fought a guy with a Lanturn that had Confuse Ray, Thunder Wave and Waterfall. I didn't see the fourth slot, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it was Attract. If so many people have a problem with Moody, a strategy that is based on luck initially, then why is deliberate haxxing alright?

I realise luck is part of the game, and a crucial part at that, but I think abusing it with Serene Grace or other things of the sort, is no better than Moody.
I've been quiet this whole thread, and while I'm with Ranger Jack and the like, I do admit Synthesis has a point. oAo Why is it that evasion hax is bad, but deliberately using flinch-hax just fine? Especially if it's a case of parafusion+flinch? Forcing your foe to flinch too much is no better than spamming DT I should think.
There are many reasons, but I'll just list a few simple ones:

1) Nearly every single Pokemon can learn DT, while Paraflinching is limited in distribution

2) The Pokemon that Paraflinch have counters

3) It takes no skill to spam DT, while the flinching/paralyzing moves have Pokemon that resist them, so skill is required in using your paraflincher.
1) Distribution is definitely not a factor, but I'm glad you brought this up. Firstly, to hax, you don't need to parattractflinchfusion, there are simpler methods. To paralyse, there are so many options avaialble. Thunder Wave is a TM with vast distribution, spanning five generations, having Pokemon of all types able to learn it. Then you have Glare and Stun Spore too, which have bad and relatively good distribution respectively. Of course, it's not like there are other methods to spread paralysis, right?

Even if we ignore the ones with a not-so-great chance of paralysing (mind you, there is a ton of these, several even being TMs), you are left with Discharge, Body Slam and Secret Power, each having a 30% chance to cause paralysis (or 60% with Serene Grace). Discharge is in pretty much every Electric types' arsenal and has a bit of non-Electric type distribution too. Body Slam was a TM in the first two generations and a truckton of things could learn in, but now that it's a Move Tutor move in the third and fourth gen, so much more can get it. Secret Power also happens to have a huge distribution in the third gen as a TM. And, that's just the basics of paralysis spreading.

Now, let's take that plethora of Pokemon able to paralyse, and realise that that's at least 60 or 70% of all Pokemon. Considering the huge distribution of Swagger (TM), Confuse Ray, Signal Beam (Move Tutor), Headbutt (Move Tutor and TM), Waterfall (HM), Attract (TM), and so much more hax-oriented moves, I'm sure at least 85-90% of Pokemon can hax. That's just about as much that can spam Double Team, isn't it?

2) So do the Pokemon with Double Team. Taunt, Torment, Imprison, Roar, Whirlwind, Psych Up, Swift, Magical Leaf, Aura Sphere, etc. Or, you could not let the opponent waste 6 turns setting up in your face.

3) It takes no skill to get lucky, or not get unlucky, does it? Even if your opponent resists Togekiss' Air Slash, they still have a 50% chance of getting through confusion, 50% through attract, 75% through paralysis, and a 40% chance of getting through flinching. I'm no mathlete, but I can tell you that's a very slim chance, and even if you do get through, what can you do in just one turn to a bulky Togekiss - provided you live that long of course.

#lawyered
 
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1) Distribution is definitely not a factor, but I'm glad you brought this up. Firstly, to hax, you don't need to parattractflinchfusion, there are simpler methods. To paralyse, there are so many options avaialble. Thunder Wave is a TM with vast distribution, spanning five generations, having Pokemon of all types able to learn it. Then you have Glare and Stun Spore too, which have bad and relatively good distribution respectively. Of course, it's not like there are other methods to spread paralysis, right?

Even if we ignore the ones with a not-so-great chance of paralysing (mind you, there is a ton of these, several even being TMs), you are left with Discharge, Body Slam and Secret Power, each having a 30% chance to cause paralysis (or 60% with Serene Grace). Discharge is in pretty much every Electric types' arsenal and has a bit of non-Electric type distribution too. Body Slam was a TM in the first two generations and a truckton of things could learn in, but now that it's a Move Tutor move in the third and fourth gen, so much more can get it. Secret Power also happens to have a huge distribution in the third gen as a TM. And, that's just the basics of paralysis spreading.

Now, let's take that plethora of Pokemon able to paralyse, and realise that that's at least 60 or 70% of all Pokemon. Considering the huge distribution of Swagger (TM), Confuse Ray, Signal Beam (Move Tutor), Headbutt (Move Tutor and TM), Waterfall (HM), Attract (TM), and so much more hax-oriented moves, I'm sure at least 85-90% of Pokemon can hax. That's just about as much that can spam Double Team, isn't it?

2) So do the Pokemon with Double Team. Taunt, Torment, Imprison, Roar, Whirlwind, Psych Up, Swift, Magical Leaf, Aura Sphere, etc. Or, you could not let the opponent waste 6 turns setting up in your face.

3) It takes no skill to get lucky, or not get unlucky, does it? Even if your opponent resists Togekiss' Air Slash, they still have a 50% chance of getting through confusion, 50% through attract, 75% through paralysis, and a 40% chance of getting through flinching. I'm no mathlete, but I can tell you that's a very slim chance, and even if you do get through, what can you do in just one turn to a bulky Togekiss - provided you live that long of course.

#lawyered
1) Well actually I was considering Serene Grace when I mentioned distribution, rather than just any "annoying" move. And I really don't see what point you're trying to make by saying most Pokemon can learn a hax-orientated move - especially when a lot of them are more "hax as secondary effect" - when they don't have the same abuse-ability that DT does. Unless you want to ban any move with a hax effect, just because it has the possibility to be hax.

2) But DT is much more centralizing. Does the metagame revolve around countering Jirachi and Togekiss? Togekiss isn't even OU, showing that these strategies aren't dominating.

3) But there are plenty of ways to counter Paralysis, and you can shut down a Togekiss before it has set up confusion, paralysis and attract. To paraphrase you; you could not let them waste turns setting up in your face. Togekiss is pretty brutal if properly set up, but the odds of countering it are much higher if you can do so before it sets up.

To be perfectly frank I wouldn't care if flinchax got banned, but I understand why it isn't banned while DT is.
 
Not a Power Ranger
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Simple Paralysis does have a large distribution but only 2 POkemon can paraflinch effectively. Togekiss and Jirachi with Air Slash and Iron Head respectively. It is far easier to counter Paralysis than DT. An entire type resists the most common method of inducing paralysis. Some have abilities to take advantage of being paralysed.

Paraflinch is really annoying. I'll give you that. Is it broken? That's hard to answer. Smogon must have tested it some time right?
 
._.
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@Saiga ; The point I was trying to make is that there really isn't any difference between moves/abilities/items that rely on luck to prevent your Pokemon from attacking. So many moves can prevent your opponent's Pokemon from attacking, provided you are lucky enough. I do agree though that they don't have the same abuse ability as Double Team, but I still maintain the belief that there are more than one way to get the same outcome that Double Team presents. I'm not calling for a banning of hax-related moves, just trying to point out that Double Team aside, you can hax the opponent almost as easily.

Well, if Double Team wasn't banned I'm pretty confident the whole metagame wouldn't be centralised around it. Like I've said, there are numerous effective counters to it, just like there is to Togekiss. Losing to being haxxed to death is just as annoying as losing to an untouchable opponent. By the way, Dunsparce can abuse Serene Grace just as effectively.

The very same holds true for Double Team though. Yes, they're both annoying, but neither are broken, imo. The main reason Double Team was banned anyway was because it didn't make the game fun.
@Ranger Jack Walker ;

Just because they do it the best, doesn't mean they're the only effective paraflinchers though. But yes, if you play your cards right, you can out-predict Thunder Wave or cure it via Rest, Heal Bell, etc.

If they find Double Team and Bright Powder broken, then I personally think SG abuse or hax of any kind as a sole method of winning is just as bad.

However, I am glad that Double Team is banned. I don't think many people aren't glad of it really.
 
Prayers to Oak Creek
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You can outspeed Flinching, but not missing.
 
All hail me!
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@Synthesis;
All your answers in this thread. Please read it.

Edit: And no taunt, phazing moves are not "counters" since they do not have flawless accuracy. Never miss moves are weak as hell. Aura sphere has poor distribution. Don't tell me you are going to switch in Lucario into DT Gliscor.

There is a big difference in confusion and evasion. If my mon is confused, I can switch out. If my opponent is using DT, I should start by becoming religious and praying that my move hits.
 
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How the hell is Dunsparce as effective at SG abuse as Togekiss and Jirachi? It's horribly outclassed by them.
 
Conformity is Overrated.
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...well, looks like a three, maybe four way war between posters... and my attempt to diffuse the dispute was pathetically ignored...

oh well, I didn't eat all of Stratago's popcorn, and I managed to get me some caramel corn to satisfy a sweet tooth. who wants to watch this pointless dispute and laugh at it??
 
bowtie coconut birb
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I'd rather this pointless dispute end. Can I motion for this thread getting closed? The discussion is going nowhere, the arguments are circular and repetitive, and nothing new is getting contributed. Maybe my memory is foggy, but that seems like the general definition for a thread that needs to be put down.
 
All hail me!
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I'd rather this pointless dispute end. Can I motion for this thread getting closed? The discussion is going nowhere, the arguments are circular and repetitive, and nothing new is getting contributed. Maybe my memory is foggy, but that seems like the general definition for a thread that needs to be put down.
+1
A thread should be closed when people posting in seriously believe that Dunsparce is broken(!).
 
Prayers to Oak Creek
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I can only assume that the thread can only go into personal attacks if the argument is this cyclical, so I'll close it.
 
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