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Smogon (and others') banning of Pokemon; who are they to decide??

Is Evasion truly broken, or are there counters to it that can be used?

  • Yes! Double Team / Minimize is evil, and should be banned forever!

    Votes: 3 21.4%
  • No! There are are 15 moves that counter it (+5 more, depending) and items/abilities, too!

    Votes: 11 78.6%

  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .
Status
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Previously known as 'Isamu Akai'
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thats the idea, reduce the luck factor and made a more balanced competition :)
People have already been reducing the luck factor for years now. I hardly would call luck having an impact on the metagame anymore, or ever really. It's things that are over-centralized, as Feliciano explained, that need to be looked at, else we would have never heard the end of some of those things.

I was happy that Garchomp was banned, and I certainly hope that it stays in the hell where it belongs.
 
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thats the idea, reduce the luck factor and made a more balanced competition :)
True, but luck is a part of the battle system. If it wasn't there'd be no such thing as accuracy, no such thing as evasion, no such thing as a critical hit, no such thing as an effect that only happens __% of the time, etc.
Ignoring luck is for the people hosting the competition to decide, but in general I don't see why part of the battle system itself should be ignored. That's like ignoring any other part of the battle system... maybe saying somehting like "type advtages are unfair" and restricting everyone to a single type (which is not weak or resistant to itself). It limits what you have the ability to do, taking away from the game, just to ensure "fairness".
I guess the only difference is that luck is not based on skill at all, whereas type advantage is (assuming 2 players don't get into a type stalemate and constantly switch in order to try getting the type advatage).
 
Previously known as 'Isamu Akai'
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Well of course moves will still always have a chance of missing, there is no way to completely eliminate that.

What people don't like to see is when people deliberately lower the accuracy, or raise their evasion, to increase their odds in making an opponent's moves miss. That is when things turn from skill-based to more luck-based, which is quite a bummer really. I put a lot of work into my more serious teams, and I certainly wouldn't want my chances of properly using them to be ruined merely because someone thought it would be cool to use Sand-Attack or Double Team.
 
Not a Power Ranger
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Since its their site and their tiers, I'd say they have full rights to decide whats banned and what isn't.

You don't have to play by their rules. Make your own tiers. I'd like to see people try to make tiers and balance them well like Smogon does.
 
The Professor
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I always shake my head whenever someone brings up this argument, because of my mixed feelings on competitive Pokemon. I feel that Smogon's prominence is both the best and the worst thing to happen to the fandom. It's great that there is a place for people to gather and share movesets and ideas and form a community around one of the best aspects of Pokemon. However, whenever there is an emphasis on being 'the best', elitism and cronyism are sure to follow.

While the elitist attitudes have calmed down in recent years, there is still a small contingent of 'my way is better than yours' coming from some of Smogon's faithful. That there are people who actually 'look down' on people who choose to play the game differently than them, is not a good look. Who are you to tell me that I 'have to EV train' or I can't use the Pokemon I want because they are 'in a different tier'...

I have spent more time than I probably should have exploring every inch of the Pokemon games, and competitive battling is no stranger. I involved myself heavily in battling for years, so I understand the thought process behind wanting to remove the 'luck factor' and make a match come down to who has the best strategy, tactics, team synergy, and forethought.
However, I also understand what its like to be 12 years old and discovering Mewtwo for the first time in Cerulean Cave, thinking to myself, "This Pokemon is AWESOME! I'm gonna use it and beat EVERYONE!" Or, learning that Double Team made my opponents miss more often and wanting to base a strategy around that. Even the oh so loathed One Hit KO moves have had their moments, when my back was against the wall and I didn't have the 'right Hidden Power' and wanted to make a last-ditch attempt to turn the tide(or to be a complete jack-ass and spam them early on).

Not too long ago, my friend and I would debate these things often, and we came to the conclusion that every move, every 'mon, every team and strategy you could think of has its counters and flaws to be exploited. Yet, there are nearly 700 different Pokemon, each with their own unique quirks and qualities, and an almost infinite number of ways to combine them and play, so it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to counter everything. You will run into something you can't beat eventually, and no one team will be able to handle every threat.

The beauty of these games is that they are so rich with depth and options, that a person could play them in innumerable ways. Smogon seems to be the popular way to play for now competitively, yet there are Random Wi-Fi matches and local groups that I am sure have their own unique rulesets and clauses. Heck, back in the RBY days, my pals and I organized a small tournament, and the only real rule was that each person was limited to using one of each species so there would only be one Mewtwo on their teams(as we all had multiples, lol)... To this day, that was the most exciting and hype-filled competition I've ever played in. Everyone brought their Mewtwos, but each and every person played had a unique moveset and strategy. I saw about six different Mewtwo sets that day, each more creative than the last, and some people used Pokemon I had never even thought of using(first time I had ever seen Chansey used competitively, changed my life).

TL;DR version: Everyone is different. Let them play how they want and don't try to force your ideals on others. To be accepted by others is to be able to accept others...
 
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You don't have to play by their rules. Make your own tiers. I'd like to see people try to make tiers and balance them well like Smogon does.
Though you have to admit, it is rather difficult in a way to shape your own tiers when Smogon is such a major authority and impact on the metagame. Even people who don't battle with Smogon may still be influenced by them to some degree.

Not to mention, there is just some Pokemon out there that are kind of really hard to move to a different tier, even if you really want them to. Take Shiftry for example. Shiftry is one of my most favorite Pokemon actually, enough for me to consider using it in a team. But I also have to think realistically about Shiftry, as it doesn't exactly have the best of stats, and its movepool is pretty shallow at best. Shiftry is considered NU, and I frankly have to agree with that. I'll still use it of course because I want to (and I have one in my team in Black), but I also have to be aware of its limits. You can only make a Pokemon as great as their limits can allow them.

Or, better example, Shuckle. Sure it has the highest Defense and Special Defense of all Pokemon (and can have the highest Attack if it uses Power Trick), but the rest of its stats and movepool are too poor for it to make any real good use out of its two best stats. It's HP and Speed are well, crap to be put bluntly, and it's still very likely to faint on spot despite its far superior defense stats.

Unfortunately, some things just cannot be moved to a different tier, unless of course, you change nearly everything else about the metagame.
 
Not a Power Ranger
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You don't have to play by their rules. Make your own tiers. I'd like to see people try to make tiers and balance them well like Smogon does.
Though you have to admit, it is rather difficult in a way to shape your own tiers when Smogon is such a major authority and impact on the metagame. Even people who don't battle with Smogon may still be influenced by them to some degree.

Not to mention, there is just some Pokemon out there that are kind of really hard to move to a different tier, even if you really want them to. Take Shiftry for example. Shiftry is one of my most favorite Pokemon actually, enough for me to consider using it in a team. But I also have to think realistically about Shiftry, as it doesn't exactly have the best of stats, and its movepool is pretty shallow at best. Shiftry is considered NU, and I frankly have to agree with that. I'll still use it of course because I want to (and I have one in my team in Black), but I also have to be aware of its limits. You can only make a Pokemon as great as their limits can allow them.

Or, better example, Shuckle. Sure it has the highest Defense and Special Defense of all Pokemon (and can have the highest Attack if it uses Power Trick), but the rest of its stats and movepool are too poor for it to make any real good use out of its two best stats. It's HP and Speed are well, crap to be put bluntly, and it's still very likely to faint on spot despite its far superior defense stats.

Unfortunately, some things just cannot be moved to a different tier, unless of course, you change nearly everything else about the metagame.
Smogon tiers are based on usage not their actual potential. The banned Pokemon are exceptions. It seems that Smogon tiers are based on quality but its only because people tend to use the best ones. Here's the thing, if everyone started using Shiftry in OU even though it sucks there, Shiftry will be moved to OU. It will still suck there though.

Pokemon Online uses their own tiers which are similar yet different than the one Smogon uses.
 
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Like what? Do you mean the Sky Drop + Gravity thing? That at least is a logical ban, since it's a glitch that stalls the game out.
IIRC there was recently a doubles tournament where Dark Void was banned because a Smeargle could abuse the move to put both opponents to sleep on turn 1 and effectively cripple the opponent's team without any form of strategy involved.
 
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I agree with you, but I don't think any Pokémon should be banned at all... ever... even legendaries. I mean really, what's the point? Even if they have superior stats, so what? Banning them just means that people who rely on stats are going to use the non-legendary Pokémon with the best stats. How do websites such as Smogon respond to this? By banning the so-called ubers. And again, people just use the non-uber / non-legendaries with the best stats... there's no end to it!
Every Pokémon in the game is part of the game and should be able to be used freely.
Even GameFreak themselves are guilty of putting restrictions on certain Pokémon in multiplayer mode... I don't really see why. It's just an annoyance, forcing me to change my team whenever I want to use the feature. They're not even un-beatable anyway... I have at least 3 legendary Pokémon on my team and when I battle a friend I still lose every time (because I use my in-game team... he uses a strategic team to beat real-world players)

Edit - and looking at the list, I can see some of their ridiculous rules. A OHKO clause?! The entire point of OHKO attacks having such low accuracy is to make them balanced and discourage people from using them... I doubt a serious trainer would ever rely on such techniques. And even if he does... so what? Banning it is completely unnecessary.
Agreed. Go ahead and sent your great, big Groudon against my tiny little Ninetales, see what happens. I dare you.
Though I would understand a ban on Articuno. That thing's worse than Mew, though not quite as good as Smeargle.
 
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Well of course moves will still always have a chance of missing, there is no way to completely eliminate that.

What people don't like to see is when people deliberately lower the accuracy, or raise their evasion, to increase their odds in making an opponent's moves miss. That is when things turn from skill-based to more luck-based, which is quite a bummer really. I put a lot of work into my more serious teams, and I certainly wouldn't want my chances of properly using them to be ruined merely because someone thought it would be cool to use Sand-Attack or Double Team.
Except 2 things:
- Sand Attack and Double Team are not pure luck, they are strategy. You can come into battle hoping to get lucky (that the opponent will keep missing), or you can strategically use attacks to increase the chances of that happening. Lowering an opponent's accuracy / raising your evasiveness is not any less strategic than lowering the opponent's attack or raising your own defense, except for the fact that it has a direct influence on luck.
Like, is poisoning / burning the opponent considered unfair? It doesn't really take any skill (other than strategic planning) to use an attack with a chance (even a 100% chance) of inflicting that kind of status effect, doing ongoing damage until he is healed. Weather conditions are the same way.
- It is impossible to become world champion or even become one of the best by relying on luck in the first place. And I'd say for the most part people on Smogon are playing to win... no one's going to come along and use pure luck-based attacks like Fissure. And if he does, he might beat you, but he's not going to get very far in the overall competition. As far as Double Team... that's not relying on luck, that's strategy influencing luck. If you are able to prevent the opponent from even hitting you then that's a strategy (an annoying one to your opponent, but a strategy nonetheless). There are counters to it... I'm not really buying the excuse "a competitive player won't waste move slots to counter it". Competitive players waste move slots countering other strategies...
 
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Well of course moves will still always have a chance of missing, there is no way to completely eliminate that.

What people don't like to see is when people deliberately lower the accuracy, or raise their evasion, to increase their odds in making an opponent's moves miss. That is when things turn from skill-based to more luck-based, which is quite a bummer really. I put a lot of work into my more serious teams, and I certainly wouldn't want my chances of properly using them to be ruined merely because someone thought it would be cool to use Sand-Attack or Double Team.
Except 2 things:
- Sand Attack and Double Team are not pure luck, they are strategy. You can come into battle hoping to get lucky (that the opponent will keep missing), or you can strategically use attacks to increase the chances of that happening. Lowering an opponent's accuracy / raising your evasiveness is not any less strategic than lowering the opponent's attack or raising your own defense, except for the fact that it has a direct influence on luck.
Like, is poisoning / burning the opponent considered unfair? It doesn't really take any skill (other than strategic planning) to use an attack with a chance (even a 100% chance) of inflicting that kind of status effect, doing ongoing damage until he is healed. Weather conditions are the same way.
- It is impossible to become world champion or even become one of the best by relying on luck in the first place. And I'd say for the most part people on Smogon are playing to win... no one's going to come along and use pure luck-based attacks like Fissure. And if he does, he might beat you, but he's not going to get very far in the overall competition. As far as Double Team... that's not relying on luck, that's strategy influencing luck. If you are able to prevent the opponent from even hitting you then that's a strategy (an annoying one to your opponent, but a strategy nonetheless). There are counters to it... I'm not really buying the excuse "a competitive player won't waste move slots to counter it". Competitive players waste move slots countering other strategies...
Whether you call it "strategy used to statistically increase chances of being lucky" or other such bullshit, it is still luck and surrenders the game to the RNG. Competitive battling should reward a player with higher skills and not a person who keeps getting lucky with the RNG. There are exceptions like crits and all but they cannot be controlled without changing the game's mechanics which is something smogon wants to stay way from. On the other hand, Double team spam can be controlled and that is why it is banned.

1) Double team is pure luck. Sand attack isn't useful and thus isn't banned. On the other hand, Pokemon like Gliscor and Blissey can easily set up multiple double teams and become unhittable and then proceed to stall out entire teams. It will then take a lot of luck to bring them down and frankly that takes away the purpose of competitive battling itself.

Status effects and weather donot rely on luck. At all. Its a dumb comparision.

2) Yeah, but it is possible to win individual matches like tournament matches with hax. Not only that the metagame would be a nightmare if every other team started abusing evasion, which they would since evasion is extremely powerful.
 
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Pokemon aren't banned because they're too good. They're banned when they become too centralizing. Let's just say that Arceus is brought down to OU. Now every team will have an Arceus, an Arceus Counter(And usually, oonly Arceus can beat another Arceus reliably) and Pokemon not murdered by Arceus(which, even in the Ubers, isn;t a whole lot). Would you really enjoy playing in such a metagame? Back in Blaziken's hayday in OU, every team had one. Every team also had a Slowking/Slowbro because those two are the only ones who could take repeated hits from a boosted Blaziken. Pokemon weak to Fire and Fighting suddenly became very rare.

Here's a bit of advice. Do some research. Find out about how Smogon functions. Contrary to what you might believe, Smogonites aren't just a bunch kids who whine cause they can't beat a particular Pokemon and just ban it. Tiers are serious business. Even in games with fewer characters like your typical Fighting game, tiers are a mess. Pokemon is even more unbalanced and Smogon does its best to make the game enjoyable andd allow all Pokemon to get their own place to shine.
 
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Pokemon aren't banned because they're too good. They're banned when they become too centralizing. Let's just say that Arceus is brought down to OU. Now every team will have an Arceus, an Arceus Counter(And usually, oonly Arceus can beat another Arceus reliably) and Pokemon not murdered by Arceus(which, even in the Ubers, isn;t a whole lot). Would you really enjoy playing in such a metagame? Back in Blaziken's hayday in OU, every team had one. Every team also had a Slowking/Slowbro because those two are the only ones who could take repeated hits from a boosted Blaziken. Pokemon weak to Fire and Fighting suddenly became very rare.

Here's a bit of advice. Do some research. Find out about how Smogon functions. Contrary to what you might believe, Smogonites aren't just a bunch kids who whine cause they can't beat a particular Pokemon and just ban it. Tiers are serious business. Even in games with fewer characters like your typical Fighting game, tiers are a mess. Pokemon is even more unbalanced and Smogon does its best to make the game enjoyable andd allow all Pokemon to get their own place to shine.
^This. I also give you guys this link so you can understand why smogon takes the decisions it takes.
 
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Pokemon aren't banned because they're too good. They're banned when they become too centralizing. Let's just say that Arceus is brought down to OU. Now every team will have an Arceus, an Arceus Counter(And usually, oonly Arceus can beat another Arceus reliably) and Pokemon not murdered by Arceus(which, even in the Ubers, isn;t a whole lot). Would you really enjoy playing in such a metagame? Back in Blaziken's hayday in OU, every team had one. Every team also had a Slowking/Slowbro because those two are the only ones who could take repeated hits from a boosted Blaziken. Pokemon weak to Fire and Fighting suddenly became very rare.

Here's a bit of advice. Do some research. Find out about how Smogon functions. Contrary to what you might believe, Smogonites aren't just a bunch kids who whine cause they can't beat a particular Pokemon and just ban it. Tiers are serious business. Even in games with fewer characters like your typical Fighting game, tiers are a mess. Pokemon is even more unbalanced and Smogon does its best to make the game enjoyable andd allow all Pokemon to get their own place to shine.
I don't think I could have put it any better myself. I completely agree with this statement. Smogon is just trying to make the game more enjoyable and competitive, and to allow each pokemon to have a place where it can stand out.
 
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This is the reason I stopped competitive battling is because of Smogon and it's ridiculous bans, they're pretty much ruined the fun of it entirely, and then there is one forum I used to be a member of which adapted all of Smogons rules in order to have battles between the forums members, I was so fed up with it when they enforced Smogon's rules that I left the battling community in that forum indefinitely, given I have an Excadrill in White, and with Smogon's ban on it, I would only be able to use 5 of my Pokemon (and I don't want to find another Pokemon to use in it's place)
 
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Whether you call it "strategy used to statistically increase chances of being lucky" or other such bullshit, it is still luck and surrenders the game to the RNG. Competitive battling should reward a player with higher skills and not a person who keeps getting lucky with the RNG.
Except it's not just "getting lucky".
Using Fissure repeatedly and taking down a whole team is getting lucky. Relying on the fact that the opponent's attack will miss you based on pure chance alone is getting lucky.
Using an attack to increase your chances of getting lucky isn't. And since you were the one to increase your own chances then the luck that benefits you was caused directly by your own actions, therefore it was your strategic planning that made it possible. It's really not much different than saying "I won't be able to kill the opponent in a single hit now, so I'll use Dragon Dance to increase my killing ability for the next turn and every turn thereafter"

1) Double team is pure luck. Sand attack isn't useful and thus isn't banned. On the other hand, Pokemon like Gliscor and Blissey can easily set up multiple double teams and become unhittable and then proceed to stall out entire teams. It will then take a lot of luck to bring them down and frankly that takes away the purpose of competitive battling itself.
But there are counters to Double Team...

Status effects and weather donot rely on luck. At all. Its a dumb comparision.
You're missing my point... I wasn't saying that they have anything to do with luck, I was saying that they have nothing to do with skill whatsoever. Bring out a Pokémon that can make a sandstorm and all the opponent's Pokémon will be damaged every turn for the rest of the match unless he can counter it somehow. Use an attack that poisons him and he'll recieve damage every turn until he faints or is somehow able to be cured. None of that takes any particular skill at all, and is just as much strategy as using Double Team

2) Yeah, but it is possible to win individual matches like tournament matches with hax. Not only that the metagame would be a nightmare if every other team started abusing evasion, which they would since evasion is extremely powerful.
Hax? Anyway, it's possible to win a match through luck, yes, but it's not very likely to win an entire tournament through luck alone. Especially if both players are using luck-based tactics... it's impossible for them to both win. If every team was abusing evasion then teams would just need to counter that... it would actually be easier to win since you'd have a good idea that "my opponent will probably rely on evasion to win". And if lots of people start forming teams to counter evasion then less people will rely on evasion since if it is countered then they don't even have a shot at winning.

Now every team will have an Arceus, an Arceus Counter(And usually, oonly Arceus can beat another Arceus reliably) and Pokemon not murdered by Arceus(which, even in the Ubers, isn;t a whole lot). Would you really enjoy playing in such a metagame? Back in Blaziken's hayday in OU, every team had one. Every team also had a Slowking/Slowbro because those two are the only ones who could take repeated hits from a boosted Blaziken. Pokemon weak to Fire and Fighting suddenly became very rare.
This part I don't agree with. Everyone will have an Arceus... but not everyone will have the same Arceus. Take po pimpus's example of the Mewtwos... everyone had one, but each oerson had his own strategy. It'd be even moreso with Arceus... there are 16 different types of Arceus, meaning even if everyone used the exact same attacks / strategy there's still be 16 variations.
 
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Now every team will have an Arceus, an Arceus Counter(And usually, oonly Arceus can beat another Arceus reliably) and Pokemon not murdered by Arceus(which, even in the Ubers, isn;t a whole lot). Would you really enjoy playing in such a metagame? Back in Blaziken's hayday in OU, every team had one. Every team also had a Slowking/Slowbro because those two are the only ones who could take repeated hits from a boosted Blaziken. Pokemon weak to Fire and Fighting suddenly became very rare.
This part I don't agree with. Everyone will have an Arceus... but not everyone will have the same Arceus. Take po pimpus's example of the Mewtwos... everyone had one, but each oerson had his own strategy. It'd be even moreso with Arceus... there are 16 different types of Arceus, meaning even if everyone used the exact same attacks / strategy there's still be 16 variations.
It'd still be on every team, and it'd still be nigh unbeatable. Everything would resolve around Arceus; how to make sure opposing Arceus don't sweep you and how to make sure your Arceus can sweep. The first priority about any team would be "how not to get sweeped instantly by opposing Arceus", rather than "how to win this battle".

That's why Smogon bans stuff. So that your first thought can be a "how do I make a team that wins", and not a "how do I make a team that doesn't get swept by X".
 
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No one said Smogon's opinion on tiers is wrong, and anyone is free to abide by Smogon ruling or not. At the end of the day it just comes down to what you prefer, but Smogon do have the expertise on the matter and they do - for the most part anyway, make balanced gameplay. It's not perfect, but it works.
 
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You don't have to play by their rules. Make your own tiers. I'd like to see people try to make tiers and balance them well like Smogon does.
Though you have to admit, it is rather difficult in a way to shape your own tiers when Smogon is such a major authority and impact on the metagame. Even people who don't battle with Smogon may still be influenced by them to some degree.

Not to mention, there is just some Pokemon out there that are kind of really hard to move to a different tier, even if you really want them to. Take Shiftry for example. Shiftry is one of my most favorite Pokemon actually, enough for me to consider using it in a team. But I also have to think realistically about Shiftry, as it doesn't exactly have the best of stats, and its movepool is pretty shallow at best. Shiftry is considered NU, and I frankly have to agree with that. I'll still use it of course because I want to (and I have one in my team in Black), but I also have to be aware of its limits. You can only make a Pokemon as great as their limits can allow them.

Or, better example, Shuckle. Sure it has the highest Defense and Special Defense of all Pokemon (and can have the highest Attack if it uses Power Trick), but the rest of its stats and movepool are too poor for it to make any real good use out of its two best stats. It's HP and Speed are well, crap to be put bluntly, and it's still very likely to faint on spot despite its far superior defense stats.

Unfortunately, some things just cannot be moved to a different tier, unless of course, you change nearly everything else about the metagame.
Smogon tiers are based on usage not their actual potential. The banned Pokemon are exceptions. It seems that Smogon tiers are based on quality but its only because people tend to use the best ones. Here's the thing, if everyone started using Shiftry in OU even though it sucks there, Shiftry will be moved to OU. It will still suck there though.

Pokemon Online uses their own tiers which are similar yet different than the one Smogon uses.
Okay, point taken about the usage.

Still, stats and movepool do still factor in on usage. In nearly every competitive battle I have been in, I've only ever faced against OU, Uber and the occasional UU. Most of the things that I did face where the 'commons' of the OU tier, by no means did I see a wide variety in my days of battling.
 
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