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Smogon (and others') banning of Pokemon; who are they to decide??

Is Evasion truly broken, or are there counters to it that can be used?

  • Yes! Double Team / Minimize is evil, and should be banned forever!

    Votes: 3 21.4%
  • No! There are are 15 moves that counter it (+5 more, depending) and items/abilities, too!

    Votes: 11 78.6%

  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .
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Long story short, I think Smogon are a collective bunch of quacks. For instance, their ban on Swift Swim + Drizzle is just stupid if they're not going to ban Chlorophyll + Drought. Their bans often seem like arbitrary decisions to pleasing the whining masses ("Waah! I can't beat a Kingdra with Swift Swim, so it shouldn't be allowed!"), or are just plain ridiculous (Excadrill? Really?)
If the makers of the game didn't want people to use the combos that debuted in Gen V, then they wouldn't, for example, have given Politoed Drizzle in the first place, and just left that apparently too-powerful ability with a Legendary Pokemon (whose banning is much more justifiable due to its vastly superior stats).
Smogon (and websites like it) ruin the fun - no, the point - of multiplayer in Pokemon. So what if you get smashed? make a new team and smash them back! I do think it was an oversight to not include a DW pokemon with Air Lock, but perma-weather can be shut down by other forms of perma-weather, and Thunder and Hurricaine never miss in the rain, which takes care of just about everything that could be 'too powerful' for use.

For these and other ridiculous enforcements, click here: Clauses and Banlists (B/W) - Smogon University
the reason drizzle+ swift swim is banned is because pokemon with swift swim are all water types which means they get stab plus the boost from rain as well as out speeding everything without being locked into a move and everything with chlorophyll is a grass type and wont know fire moves and wont get a stab fire attack
 
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That's why Smogon bans stuff. So that your first thought can be a "how do I make a team that wins", and not a "how do I make a team that doesn't get swept by X".
It doesn't really solve that problem though.
Everyone just uses the best non-banned stuff out there, so it falls into certain categories and strategies. If Arceus is banned then you don't need to specifically think "how can I avoid my entire team being killed by Arceus?"... but you still need to think "how can I avoid my entire team being killed by [insert common strategy]?". And if that strategy ends up banned from over-use or whatever reason they come up with then people will find a new strategy to use... it will never end. You can't just ban everything that people use a lot or you'll end up with 1-on-1 Magikarp fights (but of course, they'll never take it that far).
And thinking about "how can my team not lose to X?" is not even a bad thing at all anyway... it's called strategy. As a matter of fact, you can't even think "how can my team win?" without thinking about a Pokémon or a strategy that the opponent might use. It's an important part of playing defensively.
And besides, how can you even think "how can I win?" when they've got so many restrictions on stuff? Even if you don't plan on using any cheap tactics... there is still a high chance that something on your team will end up being illegal (unless you're not thinking "how can I win?" so much as "how can I win with all of Smogon's restrictions in effect?"
 
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That's why Smogon bans stuff. So that your first thought can be a "how do I make a team that wins", and not a "how do I make a team that doesn't get swept by X".
It doesn't really solve that problem though.
Everyone just uses the best non-banned stuff out there, so it falls into certain categories and strategies. If Arceus is banned then you don't need to specifically think "how can I avoid my entire team being killed by Arceus?"... but you still need to think "how can I avoid my entire team being killed by [insert common strategy]?". And if that strategy ends up banned from over-use or whatever reason they come up with then people will find a new strategy to use... it will never end. You can't just ban everything that people use a lot or you'll end up with 1-on-1 Magikarp fights (but of course, they'll never take it that far).
And thinking about "how can my team not lose to X?" is not even a bad thing at all anyway... it's called strategy. As a matter of fact, you can't even think "how can my team win?" without thinking about a Pokémon or a strategy that the opponent might use. It's an important part of playing defensively.
And besides, how can you even think "how can I win?" when they've got so many restrictions on stuff? Even if you don't plan on using any cheap tactics... there is still a high chance that something on your team will end up being illegal (unless you're not thinking "how can I win?" so much as "how can I win with all of Smogon's restrictions in effect?"
Allright, obviously you don't understand. Allegory time! So there is this game. It's called super rock paper scissors. You can throw seven things: Rock, Paper, Scissors, big rock, big paper, big scissors and Super Rock. Big stuff beats smaller stuff unless it's weak to it, and super rock beats all. What is it that people are gonna throw most? Super Rock. Because it's unbeatable in every way, and every game ends up with people throwing super rock untill someone ragequits. Sure, you can try to create a strategy about tricking your friends into not throwing super rock (I'm not gonna throw it if you don't), but there's only a small chance it works. In the end the entire game is about super rock, and no matter how much of your "strategy" you use there is nothing you can do about it.

Solution? We ban super rock! Now the game is balanced again and we can have fun playing. "But oh no wait", you say, "big rock, big paper and big scissor are still better than rock, paper and scissors! Now we'll just have to ban them all because people will only throw the next best options they have!" True, but there's no reason to ban them since it's still balanced. At least not the entire game is about super rock anymore, and you can now enjoy the game like you're supposed to. As for rock, paper and scissors, we'll just put them into a lower tier were you can't throw big rock, big paper or big scissors, and where rock paper and scissors are only allowed. So if people prefer using them they can do that now as well!

Did you understand this allegory? If no, let me explain: Arceus (and other ubers) is banned because he's superrock. Try to smoothtalk and "strategize" all you want but you're not getting around it, everyone is gonna use it, you'll be forced to use it, and no one ever uses other pokémon. The big rock, big paper and big scissor are the OU pokémon. They'll be used the most after big rock leaves. But no one cares, because at least they balance each other out. And then finally we have the UU pokémon with rock, paper and scissor, who get to enjoy their own tier where they can shine as pokémon, and be used just as much as OU pokémon in their tier.

And that way it is more fun for everyone.
 
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@ King Porky: What about 1-turn SolarBeam? It's base attack is stronger than most fire attacks, it only would take one turn, plus grass types would get STAB off of it. Additionally, it's got better accuracy than Hydro Pump or Aqua Tail.

@ Dannyjenn: My Magikarp challenges yours to a duel.

@Mijzelffan: You assume that every player is the type who, for instance, plays a Fighter, dumps all their points into STR and DEX, then assigns 1s into everything else. (I'm referring to a points-based method of character creation, not a rolled one.) Just after BW launched, I entered a puny 'tournament' with five other people at a local game shop, and ran a team consisting of a Dewott, Archeops, Haxorus, Infernape, Weavile and Latios just because I like those Pokemon. I was told by three of them that I 'couldn't keep my tiers straight', and that I had to remove Latios outright. Another player asked what they meant and he was told that Latios was 'too powerful for standard play', and couldn't be used. I tried to explain that I didn't think he counted as Legendary, thinking that was the source of their issue, and was condescendingly told, 'he's not, but he's still an Uber.' (Apparently he's not anymore; he's just 'Over-Used now.) That was the last time I played in any kind of 'official' match, even at a local level.
Thusly, assorted jerks go around forcing Smogon's judgements and bans as though they come from Nintendo, or Game Freak, or whoever, and attempt to control multiplayer that way.
From that perspective, I suppose my real issue are the assorted d-bags who go around and attempt to force Smogon's rulings on everyone they meet, but if they (Smogon) didn't make their 'fair, informed and tested' bans and clauses, it wouldn't happen, and then it really would be more fun for everyone.

Oh, and lastly, @ Feliciano: That's right, I don't CHEAT by using Sav :lol:
 
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What about 1-turn SolarBeam? It's base attack is stronger than most fire attacks, it only would take one turn, plus grass types would get STAB off of it. Additionally, it's got better accuracy than Hydro Pump or Aqua Tail.
Because honestly, Grass has pretty shitty type coverage on what it can and can't hit effectively. Also, weather is STUPID common, so it's really easy to just predict when a solarbeam is coming and send in your weather inducer to force it into two turns. And before you say that T-tar, Hippowdon, and Politoed are some of the few things weak to grass, you just set up your weather so that it forces it to take the first turn absorbing sunlight, then switch out to a grass resist and/or your special wall. Simple.

You assume that every player is the type who, for instance, plays a Fighter, dumps all their points into STR and DEX, then assigns 1s into everything else. (I'm referring to a points-based method of character creation, not a rolled one.) Just after BW launched, I entered a puny 'tournament' with five other people at a local game shop, and ran a team consisting of a Dewott, Archeops, Haxorus, Infernape, Weavile and Latios just because I like those Pokemon. I was told by three of them that I 'couldn't keep my tiers straight', and that I had to remove Latios outright. Another player asked what they meant and he was told that Latios was 'too powerful for standard play', and couldn't be used. I tried to explain that I didn't think he counted as Legendary, thinking that was the source of their issue, and was condescendingly told, 'he's not, but he's still an Uber.' (Apparently he's not anymore; he's just 'Over-Used now.) That was the last time I played in any kind of 'official' match, even at a local level.
Thusly, assorted jerks go around forcing Smogon's judgements and bans as though they come from Nintendo, or Game Freak, or whoever, and attempt to control multiplayer that way.
From that perspective, I suppose my real issue are the assorted d-bags who go around and attempt to force Smogon's rulings on everyone they meet, but if they (Smogon) didn't make their 'fair, informed and tested' bans and clauses, it wouldn't happen, and then it really would be more fun for everyone.
So your problem is that people are a load of douchebags. Welcome to life, would you like a complementary t-shirt?

The thing is, though, that it IS unfair to use stuff like Latios against pokemon that can't handle it. If you just want to use a grab-bag team, that's fine, but unless you find someone else who's willing to run the same sort of team, most people will use Smogon as a standard. Is it a perfect system? Of course not. But it's a simple system that anyone can grasp with relative ease, and it allows people to use whatever they want without getting constantly swept by pokemon with better stats.

For example, I love Flareon. It's one of my favorite pokemon ever. But if I tried to use it in a metagame where there were absolutely no restrictions on what people could and couldn't use, I'd have a really difficult time simply because there are a load of pokemon out there that do exactly what Flareon does, only about ten times better. With the structure of tiers, I can at least make sure that if I use Flareon on a team, it won't be outclassed and I'll still have a fighting chance.
 
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The thing is, though, that it IS unfair to use stuff like Latios against pokemon that can't handle it.
How, exactly? Latios' best base stat is a 130 in SAtk, which is the same as an Espeon, and not even as good as an Alakazam's. As far as base stat totals go, he's got a 600, the same as Dragonite, Metagross or Tyranitar, and I don't see anyone throwing a fit about them.

I love Flareon. It's one of my favorite pokemon ever. But if I tried to use it in a metagame where there were absolutely no restrictions on what people could and couldn't use, I'd have a really difficult time simply because there are a load of pokemon out there that do exactly what Flareon does, only about ten times better.
So what?? If you love Flareon, use him! My Dewott is my lead, and I won't evolve him on principal because I like Dewott. Holding Eviolite and because of his nature, training and IVs (which I BRED in, thank you very much), he can hold his own against a Samurott of similar level. Would his stats be better if I let him evolve? Of course they would!

The point of multiplayer is to have fun with others. Do what you want and don't let a bunch of people mandate what's 'okay' or not! If you lose, make a new team to beat the one which beat you.

Welcome to life, would you like a complementary t-shirt?
Yes, actually, I would. Just keep the snarky attitude at home when you mail it.
 
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The thing is, though, that it IS unfair to use stuff like Latios against pokemon that can't handle it. If you just want to use a grab-bag team, that's fine, but unless you find someone else who's willing to run the same sort of team, most people will use Smogon as a standard. Is it a perfect system? Of course not. But it's a simple system that anyone can grasp with relative ease, and it allows people to use whatever they want without getting constantly swept by pokemon with better stats.
This reminds me of the time when I battled a friend of mine over wifi (back when we used to have working wifi in the house), and he thought it would be pretty cool if he ran an entire team based on legendary Pokemon, including fucking Mewtwo, whereas my team were mostly OU and the occasional UU. I kept battling him for some reason, guess that wasn't a smart choice on my part, I guess just part of me was really determined to beat him, or at least that goddamn Mewtwo of his.

But yeah, it was completely unfair, especially since I myself do not like to use legendary Pokemon on any team, serious or fun. And most would agree.
 
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How, exactly? Latios' best base stat is a 130 in SAtk, which is the same as an Espeon, and not even as good as an Alakazam's. As far as base stat totals go, he's got a 600, the same as Dragonite, Metagross or Tyranitar, and I don't see anyone throwing a fit about them.
Latios also has 80/80/110 HP and defenses, compared to Espeon's much more frail 65/60/95 (and Alakazam can die to a stiff breeze). It's also partially a Dragon type, not just a pure Psychic type like Espeon or Alakazam, which gives it many more resistances and chances to switch in. Latios' weaknesses, on the other hand, aren't as easily exploitable as those of Dragonite, T-tar, or Metagross. Even with all this, I'd say just as quickly that it's just as unfair to use any of these pokemon against a team that can't handle them. That's why they're banned from tiers where pokemon can't handle them.

So what?? If you love Flareon, use him! My Dewott is my lead, and I won't evolve him on principal because I like Dewott. Holding Eviolite and because of his nature, training and IVs (which I BRED in, thank you very much), he can hold his own against a Samurott of similar level. Would his stats be better if I let him evolve? Of course they would!

The point of multiplayer is to have fun with others. Do what you want and don't let a bunch of people mandate what's 'okay' or not! If you lose, make a new team to beat the one which beat you.
How do you not see any contradiction in this? You tell me to use Flareon because I love it, but at the same time tell me to make a new team if I lose? I don't know about you, but I don't exactly have fun when I'm losing all the time, so it makes sense that I use the best pokemon for the job. Tier system gives me an opportunity to use Flareon in a context in which I can actually have fun battles and not get steamrolled.

Yes, actually, I would. Just keep the snarky attitude at home when you mail it.
Only if you leave behind your butthurt attitude as well. Seriously, you're like the kid who brought a toy to the park and got mad when the other kids weren't playing with it right, so you're just going to take your toy and go home.
 
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Allright, obviously you don't understand. Allegory time! So there is this game. It's called super rock paper scissors. You can throw seven things: Rock, Paper, Scissors, big rock, big paper, big scissors and Super Rock. Big stuff beats smaller stuff unless it's weak to it, and super rock beats all. What is it that people are gonna throw most? Super Rock. Because it's unbeatable in every way, and every game ends up with people throwing super rock untill someone ragequits. Sure, you can try to create a strategy about tricking your friends into not throwing super rock (I'm not gonna throw it if you don't), but there's only a small chance it works. In the end the entire game is about super rock, and no matter how much of your "strategy" you use there is nothing you can do about it.

Solution? We ban super rock! Now the game is balanced again and we can have fun playing. "But oh no wait", you say, "big rock, big paper and big scissor are still better than rock, paper and scissors! Now we'll just have to ban them all because people will only throw the next best options they have!" True, but there's no reason to ban them since it's still balanced. At least not the entire game is about super rock anymore, and you can now enjoy the game like you're supposed to. As for rock, paper and scissors, we'll just put them into a lower tier were you can't throw big rock, big paper or big scissors, and where rock paper and scissors are only allowed. So if people prefer using them they can do that now as well!

Did you understand this allegory? If no, let me explain: Arceus (and other ubers) is banned because he's superrock. Try to smoothtalk and "strategize" all you want but you're not getting around it, everyone is gonna use it, you'll be forced to use it, and no one ever uses other pokémon. The big rock, big paper and big scissor are the OU pokémon. They'll be used the most after big rock leaves. But no one cares, because at least they balance each other out. And then finally we have the UU pokémon with rock, paper and scissor, who get to enjoy their own tier where they can shine as pokémon, and be used just as much as OU pokémon in their tier.

And that way it is more fun for everyone.
I see what you're saying but that's really not a fair comparison.

Pokémon has no "super rock"... there isn't just one single best Pokémon, and even if there was one best Pokémon then he isn't unbeatable... every Pokémon (even Arceus) can be defeated. Even if Arceus was the best, stalemates very rarely occur... so unlike the super rock situation you wouldn't have 2 people with Arceuses causing the game to never end or end in a draw.
Moreover, Arceus has 17 formes... even if it comes down to Arceus vs. Arceus there's a good chance one would have a type advantage (and if not, most likely they'd have different movesets, giving one an advantage)

A more valid comparison would be instead of 7 types of throws, have 9, and have the higher tiers not be unbeatable by lower tiers (as an Arceus (especially a water-type Arceus) can be still beaten by a Raichu). That is not at all unbalanced, but it does more resemble the tiers in Pokémon... the super throws would be the ubers / legendaries, the big throws would be the good non-ubers, and the regular throws would be the weak or regular Pokémon.
Tier divisions is fine if the players both agree to it, but I see no point in making an in-game rule "no legendaries allowed to battle on the wifi" and forcing all players to comply.
 

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Tiers are serious business.
I, quite seriously, am not downing anybody's opinion here. I am 100% neutral on Smogon; I don't play on it, and I don't care about their bans. However...

Guys. It's a game. A fun game. Just play. Tiers are not serious; they're something Smogon made for the games to be FUN.

Smogon doesn't ruin anything, players don't either. Not all Pokemon are made equally, and I just don't think you can argue over a game made for full-throttle customization to the absolute limit of the Pokemon you're using. The game is made for you to play intelligently, strategically, and for fun.

This is just like a religious debate between Muslims, Christians, and Jews. Despite having similar gods with similar goals but slightly different viewpoints and ways to go about achieving their agendas, you argue over whose right and whose wrong. It's unneeded, tedious.

Now, as saying; I'm not downing anybody. Freedom of Speech, I love and support that amendment for my country. But, I digress.

TL;DR - It's not too good to argue over brightly colored pixels. It's Pokemon. There are no debate prizes from a stalemate that's been in effect for as long as the "metagame" has existed. Don't like Smogon? Don't play on it; fuck the rest.

(Sorry if I offended v_v)
 
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Tiers are serious business.
I, quite seriously, am not downing anybody's opinion here. I am 100% neutral on Smogon; I don't play on it, and I don't care about their bans. However...

Guys. It's a game. A fun game. Just play. Tiers are not serious; they're something Smogon made for the games to be FUN.

Smogon doesn't ruin anything, players don't either. Not all Pokemon are made equally, and I just don't think you can argue over a game made for full-throttle customization to the absolute limit of the Pokemon you're using. The game is made for you to play intelligently, strategically, and for fun.

This is just like a religious debate between Muslims, Christians, and Jews. Despite having similar gods with similar goals but slightly different viewpoints and ways to go about achieving their agendas, you argue over whose right and whose wrong. It's unneeded, tedious.

Now, as saying; I'm not downing anybody. Freedom of Speech, I love and support that amendment for my country. But, I digress.

TL;DR - It's not too good to argue over brightly colored pixels. It's Pokemon. There are no debate prizes from a stalemate that's been in effect for as long as the "metagame" has existed. Don't like Smogon? Don't play on it; fuck the rest.

(Sorry if I offended v_v)
And that is precisely what we are doing. We are having fun playing with tiers. If, you don't want to play seriously then don't. If people want to play seriously, then let them. I hate it when people bring up, "its a game". This same idiotic argument can be used in the anime section where people take the anime seriously and even fight over it, when it is "simply" an anime. The same can be used in the manga section where it can be said that "it is just a manga" and yet people discuss it seriously. If you don't want to discuss it seriously, then allow others to do so.
 
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...I don't exactly have fun when I'm losing all the time, so it makes sense that I use the best pokemon for the job. Tier system gives me an opportunity to use Flareon in a context in which I can actually have fun battles and not get steamrolled.
That just sounds like min-maxing to me. It's no fun to be so obsessed with winning that you stop having fun. Every time I lose I get to make a new team, with a strategy I've never tried before... unless some a-holes have banned the team I'm making, of course, and the people I try to rematch throw a fit.

Yes, actually, I would. Just keep the snarky attitude at home when you mail it.
Only if you leave behind your butthurt attitude as well. Seriously, you're like the kid who brought a toy to the park and got mad when the other kids weren't playing with it right, so you're just going to take your toy and go home.
Actually, no; I don't want to go home, I want all the other kids to stop acting like a bunch of elitist jerks so that we can all play together. BTW, I'd like my shirt to be size M, in green if you've got it.
 
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That just sounds like min-maxing to me. It's no fun to be so obsessed with winning that you stop having fun. Every time I lose I get to make a new team, with a strategy I've never tried before... unless some a-holes have banned the team I'm making, of course, and the people I try to rematch throw a fit.
You know, every single Pokemon, from Bulbasaur to Kyurem is allowed in the Ubers metagame. Just play there and quit whining.
 
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That just sounds like min-maxing to me. It's no fun to be so obsessed with winning that you stop having fun. Every time I lose I get to make a new team, with a strategy I've never tried before... unless some a-holes have banned the team I'm making, of course, and the people I try to rematch throw a fit.
You know, every single Pokemon, from Bulbasaur to Kyurem is allowed in the Ubers metagame. Just play there and quit whining.
You haven't read anything but the first post, have you...? Screw it, I'll just change it so that this stops happening.
 
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@Stratago I read the whole thread, actually.

Mostly, it seems like you're just upset because of a bad experience with a group of elitist d-bags who don't know what Smogon is for. You also don't seem to quite grasp the full meaning of the term "banning." Outside of metagame tactics (like OHKO clause or sleep clause,) nothing is really banned. You can use whatever the hell you want. The only thing you have to pay attention to is where you use it.

If you want to use your Excadrill, then by all means, use it. In Ubers. If you want to use Kyurem, then use it. In OU and Ubers. Hence my previous comment. Nothing is banned in Ubers, so you can use any Pokemon to your heart's content, which is, from what I can tell, what you're pushing for. A metagame where nothing is banned and everyone can use whatever Pokemon they wish. There's a tier for that. It's Ubers.

As for those kids who told you that your team was no good in standard play, they do not represent the Smogon community. Do not make that mistake. I used a Bulbasaur over PO simulator a few times and nobody mocked me for it. One guy asked me why I was using a Bulbasaur instead of a Venusaur, and when I told him, that was the end of that. I even swept a few teams with that Bulbasaur.

For the record, the difference between Drizzle/Swift Swim and Drought/Chlorophyll is that Water types get a power and a speed boost from D+SS, whereas Grass types don't get the power boost from sunlight and Fire types don't get the speed boost.
 
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@Stratago I read the whole thread, actually.

Mostly, it seems like you're just upset because of a bad experience with a group of elitist d-bags who don't know what Smogon is for. You also don't seem to quite grasp the full meaning of the term "banning." Outside of metagame tactics (like OHKO clause or sleep clause,) nothing is really banned. You can use whatever the hell you want. The only thing you have to pay attention to is where you use it.

If you want to use your Excadrill, then by all means, use it. In Ubers. If you want to use Kyurem, then use it. In OU and Ubers. Hence my previous comment. Nothing is banned in Ubers, so you can use any Pokemon to your heart's content, which is, from what I can tell, what you're pushing for. A metagame where nothing is banned and everyone can use whatever Pokemon they wish. There's a tier for that. It's Ubers.

As for those kids who told you that your team was no good in standard play, they do not represent the Smogon community. Do not make that mistake. I used a Bulbasaur over PO simulator a few times and nobody mocked me for it. One guy asked me why I was using a Bulbasaur instead of a Venusaur, and when I told him, that was the end of that. I even swept a few teams with that Bulbasaur.

For the record, the difference between Drizzle/Swift Swim and Drought/Chlorophyll is that Water types get a power and a speed boost from D+SS, whereas Grass types don't get the power boost from sunlight and Fire types don't get the speed boost.
Sorry about the '1st post' comment, then.
All I'm trying to say is that Smogon's rulings have farther-reaching consequences than their own community. Their bans influence the way non-members build teams as well.
And I'm more upset about Garchomp than Excadrill, to be honest. I've never failed to kill one in one hit with a non-STABbed Ice Beam (barring a Focus Sash), so I don't think they're all that tough.
I used Excadrill as an example because I bred and raised one, got attached to it, so to speak, and then learned afterward that I apparently couldn't use him. Also, if fighting one, I think Mach Punch from any bulky fighting type or Technician could take him out so easily. Tangrowth, Cliscor and Skarmory are all good counters for it, too.
It seriously, the reason that Pokemon like Excadrill and Garchomp were banned is because too many people whined about losing to them when they could have easily beat them. Dragonite and Volcorona are just as powerful, in their own right, but they haven't been.
And I still say that a 1-turn SolarBeam from a Chlorophyll-enhanced Exeggutor is just as awesome as rain-boosted water moves.
 
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@Stratago Solar Beam is very easy to shut down and it isn't even that powerful neithet is its power boosted by sun.

A STAB Solar Beam has 150 power and no charge turn. Grass is effective on Water, Rock and Ground. Its not very effective against Grass, Poison, Steel, Dragon and Bug.

Compare that to a Rain boosted stabed Hydro Pump which effectively has 240 power. Its good against Rock, Ground and fire. Its not very effective against Grass, Dragon and Water. Note that Water as well as Grass are good against both Rock and Ground but more types resist Grass.

If Sunlight is interrupted, Solar beam needs to charge and the opponent just got a free switch. If Rain gets interrupted, all it does is bring down Hydro Pump's powerd down to 180 (still more than Solar Beam)

So I apologize for the Pokemon Basics 101 but its pretty damn obvious that 1 turn stab Solar Beams are mot nearly as good as Stab and rin-boosted Hydro Pumps.
 
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Actually, STAB SolarBeam has 180 power and STAB rain-boosted Hydro Pump has 270. But yeah, I agree with that point.
 
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@Stratago I read the whole thread, actually.

Mostly, it seems like you're just upset because of a bad experience with a group of elitist d-bags who don't know what Smogon is for. You also don't seem to quite grasp the full meaning of the term "banning." Outside of metagame tactics (like OHKO clause or sleep clause,) nothing is really banned. You can use whatever the hell you want. The only thing you have to pay attention to is where you use it.

If you want to use your Excadrill, then by all means, use it. In Ubers. If you want to use Kyurem, then use it. In OU and Ubers. Hence my previous comment. Nothing is banned in Ubers, so you can use any Pokemon to your heart's content, which is, from what I can tell, what you're pushing for. A metagame where nothing is banned and everyone can use whatever Pokemon they wish. There's a tier for that. It's Ubers.

As for those kids who told you that your team was no good in standard play, they do not represent the Smogon community. Do not make that mistake. I used a Bulbasaur over PO simulator a few times and nobody mocked me for it. One guy asked me why I was using a Bulbasaur instead of a Venusaur, and when I told him, that was the end of that. I even swept a few teams with that Bulbasaur.

For the record, the difference between Drizzle/Swift Swim and Drought/Chlorophyll is that Water types get a power and a speed boost from D+SS, whereas Grass types don't get the power boost from sunlight and Fire types don't get the speed boost.
Sorry about the '1st post' comment, then.
All I'm trying to say is that Smogon's rulings have farther-reaching consequences than their own community. Their bans influence the way non-members build teams as well.
And I'm more upset about Garchomp than Excadrill, to be honest. I've never failed to kill one in one hit with a non-STABbed Ice Beam (barring a Focus Sash), so I don't think they're all that tough.
I used Excadrill as an example because I bred and raised one, got attached to it, so to speak, and then learned afterward that I apparently couldn't use him. Also, if fighting one, I think Mach Punch from any bulky fighting type or Technician could take him out so easily. Tangrowth, Cliscor and Skarmory are all good counters for it, too.
It seriously, the reason that Pokemon like Excadrill and Garchomp were banned is because too many people whined about losing to them when they could have easily beat them. Dragonite and Volcorona are just as powerful, in their own right, but they haven't been.
And I still say that a 1-turn SolarBeam from a Chlorophyll-enhanced Exeggutor is just as awesome as rain-boosted water moves.
Are you actually aware of why chomp and excadrill were banned? Because your post makes me think otherwise.
 
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@Jack Walker: How do you get 150? 1/2 of 120 is 60, 120+60=180, which is the same as the Hydro Pump you mentioned. Additionally, SolarBeam doesn't miss 20% of the time.
As far as sunlight going away, my comment references the 'Drought + Chlorophyll' remark I made before, so the sun would be permanent, excepting for another instance of perma-weather. Even if the sun got removed by, say, Drizzle, and I used SolarBeam, I'd get a free charge anyway on the turn that Politoed/Kyogre got switched in, then nail whatever water-type was standing there. This of course revolves around the theory that, since the only reason to use Drizzletoad is a rain-based team, that the other members would be mosty be water types. If the weather became Ice, that's what Droughttales is for. Sandstorm could be a problem, but depending on what came out, SolarBeam could do massive damage to that, too (since, as you pointed out, grass beats rock/ground).
Now turn the tables; rain got cancelled by sun. In the rain, Hydro Pump is indeed much more powerful than SolarBeam, but in the sun it gets weaker and it still doesn't hit 1/5 of the time.
...Or at least that's how I see it.

@ Lord Clowncrete: Yes, I know why Smogon banned them, I said it in my post:
Stratago said:
Seriously, the reason that Pokemon like Excadrill and Garchomp were banned is because too many people whined about losing to them when they could have easily beat them.
It's because too many people were losing to them, and, rather than making adjustments within their teams to compensate, they deemed it 'too powerful for use'. (Perhaps the members of Smogon also banned Garchomp for his ability naturally infringing on the 'no evasion boosting' thing.)
There are quasi-legendary monsters in each generation. They're super-strong, and evolve very late in the game to compensate. The problem, IMO, is people just using PokeSav and whatnot to pop them out at LV100 with perfect IVs, fully EV trained, and with movesets they read on sites like Smogon, rather than coming up with their own ideas.
 
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