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Smogon (and others') banning of Pokemon; who are they to decide??

Is Evasion truly broken, or are there counters to it that can be used?

  • Yes! Double Team / Minimize is evil, and should be banned forever!

    Votes: 3 21.4%
  • No! There are are 15 moves that counter it (+5 more, depending) and items/abilities, too!

    Votes: 11 78.6%

  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
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@Jack Walker: How do you get 150? 1/2 of 120 is 60, 120+60=180, which is the same as the Hydro Pump you mentioned. Additionally, SolarBeam doesn't miss 20% of the time.
As far as sunlight going away, my comment references the 'Drought + Chlorophyll' remark I made before, so the sun would be permanent, excepting for another instance of perma-weather. Even if the sun got removed by, say, Drizzle, and I used SolarBeam, I'd get a free charge anyway on the turn that Politoed/Kyogre got switched in, then nail whatever water-type was standing there. This of course revolves around the theory that, since the only reason to use Drizzletoad is a rain-based team, that the other members would be mosty be water types. If the weather became Ice, that's what Droughttales is for. Sandstorm could be a problem, but depending on what came out, SolarBeam could do massive damage to that, too (since, as you pointed out, grass beats rock/ground).
Now turn the tables; rain got cancelled by sun. In the rain, Hydro Pump is indeed much more powerful than SolarBeam, but in the sun it gets weaker and it still doesn't hit 1/5 of the time.
...Or at least that's how I see it.

@ Lord Clowncrete: Yes, I know why Smogon banned them, I said it in my post:
Stratago said:
Seriously, the reason that Pokemon like Excadrill and Garchomp were banned is because too many people whined about losing to them when they could have easily beat them.
It's because too many people were losing to them, and, rather than making adjustments within their teams to compensate, they deemed it 'too powerful for use'. (Perhaps the members of Smogon also banned Garchomp for his ability naturally infringing on the 'no evasion boosting' thing.)
There are quasi-legendary monsters in each generation. They're super-strong, and evolve very late in the game to compensate. The problem, IMO, is people just using PokeSav and whatnot to pop them out at LV100 with perfect IVs, fully EV trained, and with movesets they read on sites like Smogon, rather than coming up with their own ideas.
Lol no, solarbeam goes as follows:
1) You use solarbeam and a rival weather inducer switches in.
2) The solarbeam will not hit immediately but will charge on the turn.
3) The solarbeam will now hit on the second turn and that too with half the power.
4) You cannot switch out on turn 2 while politoed,ttar, abomasnow kill you easily before you can even fire a weakened solarbeam.
5) Non-weather teams generally pack Heatran, Latias, insetr dragon type, Chansey, etc who can tank a solar beam and kill exeguttor.

You don't even know the mechanics and yet you are saying solarbeam is broken. Seriously?

It's because too many people were losing to them, and, rather than making adjustments within their teams to compensate, they deemed it 'too powerful for use'. (Perhaps the members of Smogon also banned Garchomp for his ability naturally infringing on the 'no evasion boosting' thing.)
There are quasi-legendary monsters in each generation. They're super-strong, and evolve very late in the game to compensate. The problem, IMO, is people just using PokeSav and whatnot to pop them out at LV100 with perfect IVs, fully EV trained, and with movesets they read on sites like Smogon, rather than coming up with their own ideas.
lol, look who is whining. Chomp was banned for its ability to abuse hax and potentially come out on top against many of its so called counters. Excadrill single handedly turned the metagame into a bulky based one and completely eliminated scarfed mons and Hyper offense. They both centralized the metagame and that is why they were banned. Not because, the smogon whiners couldn't kill it. Both these mons were tested over a period of one year. It was not some knee jerk reaction.

Are you even aware that majority of the battling goes on simulators and not over wifi? It has nothing to do with "they use legit hacks" which sounds like an excuse more than anything else.

As for people using smogon sets, it is because they are effective. Period.

I will give you some advice. So listen up: If you have problems with how smogon functions then join smogon. Become a top-battler and become known there. And then post a thread explaining how garchomp and excadrill should be unbanned. Whining or complaining about the way a site functions(that too on another forum), especially when you are not aware of how the site functions won't take you anywhere.
 
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would people just listen to Lord Clowncrete he's making the most sense and is one of the only people not whining about physics they don't understand fully
 
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Chomp was banned for its ability to abuse hax and potentially come out on top against many of its so called counters. Excadrill single handedly turned the metagame into a bulky based one and completely eliminated scarfed mons and Hyper offense. They both centralized the metagame and that is why they were banned. Not because, the smogon whiners couldn't kill it. Both these mons were tested over a period of one year. It was not some knee jerk reaction.
But then why was it so "centralized"? If people were to switch their teams to counter Excadrill then the Excadrill players would stop basing strategies around it... no need to ban it.
 

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Tiers are serious business.
I, quite seriously, am not downing anybody's opinion here. I am 100% neutral on Smogon; I don't play on it, and I don't care about their bans. However...

Guys. It's a game. A fun game. Just play. Tiers are not serious; they're something Smogon made for the games to be FUN.

Smogon doesn't ruin anything, players don't either. Not all Pokemon are made equally, and I just don't think you can argue over a game made for full-throttle customization to the absolute limit of the Pokemon you're using. The game is made for you to play intelligently, strategically, and for fun.

This is just like a religious debate between Muslims, Christians, and Jews. Despite having similar gods with similar goals but slightly different viewpoints and ways to go about achieving their agendas, you argue over whose right and whose wrong. It's unneeded, tedious.

Now, as saying; I'm not downing anybody. Freedom of Speech, I love and support that amendment for my country. But, I digress.

TL;DR - It's not too good to argue over brightly colored pixels. It's Pokemon. There are no debate prizes from a stalemate that's been in effect for as long as the "metagame" has existed. Don't like Smogon? Don't play on it; fuck the rest.

(Sorry if I offended v_v)
And that is precisely what we are doing. We are having fun playing with tiers. If, you don't want to play seriously then don't. If people want to play seriously, then let them. I hate it when people bring up, "its a game". This same idiotic argument can be used in the anime section where people take the anime seriously and even fight over it, when it is "simply" an anime. The same can be used in the manga section where it can be said that "it is just a manga" and yet people discuss it seriously. If you don't want to discuss it seriously, then allow others to do so.
And I shall. I think you must've missed the one portion of my post, so let me post it again ^^

Tiers are serious business.
Now, as saying; I'm not downing anybody. Freedom of Speech, I love and support that amendment for my country. But, I digress.
Now, your "same idiotic argument" rebuttal is a bit redundant now, due to the fact that I've already stated that I respect your opinions~
 
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Chomp was banned for its ability to abuse hax and potentially come out on top against many of its so called counters. Excadrill single handedly turned the metagame into a bulky based one and completely eliminated scarfed mons and Hyper offense. They both centralized the metagame and that is why they were banned. Not because, the smogon whiners couldn't kill it. Both these mons were tested over a period of one year. It was not some knee jerk reaction.
But then why was it so "centralized"? If people were to switch their teams to counter Excadrill then the Excadrill players would stop basing strategies around it... no need to ban it.
It doesn't not work that way. Most of the teams had to pack gliscor, skarmory, conkeldurr. None of these Pokemon work well on fast paced teams. If You didn't pack any of the above 3 and maybe a couple of other niche mons, you were going to be swept 6-0. The number of scarfed Pokemon reached an all time low during the mole era. Yes, Excadrill had its counters and towards the end it was fairly difficult to get an excadrill sweep. However the impact of excadrill on the metagmae was incredible. To explain my point, I will just point towards the post-exca ban era. Strategies like volt-turn, rain stall, sun, mons like dnite, terrakion, scarf salamence, etc. were not common before the ban. After the ban, a lot more strategies like the ones I mentioned became viable.

So, in a nutshell, excadrill limited the number of strategies limited in OU. So, it was banned.
 
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...The solarbeam will now hit on the second turn and that too with half the power.
The only weather effect that reduces Solarbeam's power is Rain Dance, and since the user would be an Exeggcute in this case, it's power would be reduced by 25%, not half. Additionally, since this is Doubles that I'm talking about, Droughttales would roast Abomasnow, so its presence is a non-issue for Eggy. TTar is the only significant threat you listed.
Chomp was banned for its ability to abuse hax and potentially come out on top against many of its so called counters. Excadrill single handedly turned the metagame into a bulky based one and completely eliminated scarfed mons and Hyper offense.
Oh, noes! People had to think of a strategy other than Scarves and Hyper-Offense??
...It has nothing to do with "they use legit hacks"...
There's no such thing as a 'legit hack'. The very term contradicts itself.
As for people using smogon sets, it is because they are effective. Period.
... or they can't think of their own tactics. Smogon shows the most obvious ways to brainlessly min-max any given pokemon.
I will give you some advice. So listen up:
Sir, yes sir!
If you have problems with how smogon functions then join smogon. Become a top-battler and become known there. And then post a thread explaining how garchomp and excadrill should be unbanned. Whining or complaining about the way a site functions(that too on another forum), especially when you are not aware of how the site functions won't take you anywhere.
That would involve me actually playing by their BS rules. And BTW, anyone going to the site for the first time could make the same mistake I did, so get off your Smogon-loving high horse. If you don't respect my opinion, fine; go hack yourself some pokemon and play on a simulator using Smogon's bans. Niether you or Smogon is going to change my mind about how I'll play or whether or not I'll use SolarBeam. Your attitude reflecting said opinion ('this is so better stronger so only lamerz wud not use it and yer dum') also pretty much sums up why I don't like Smogonners and other assorted power-gamers. I guess I actually should thank you for giving a better example than I ever could.
 
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But then why was it so "centralized"? If people were to switch their teams to counter Excadrill then the Excadrill players would stop basing strategies around it... no need to ban it.
Wait, doesn't the very fact that you're suggesting people switch their teams around specifically to counter Excadrill speak to how very centralized Excadrill made the metagame in the first place?
 
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@Stratago;

The only weather effect that reduces Solarbeam's power is Rain Dance, and since the user would be an Exeggcute in this case, it's power would be reduced by 25%, not half. Additionally, since this is Doubles that I'm talking about, Droughttales would roast Abomasnow, so its presence is a non-issue for Eggy. TTar is the only significant threat you listed.
Let me quote bulbapedia:
SolarBeam will not need a turn to charge if used during the effects of the move Sunny Day, and will only deal half of its normal damage if used during the effect of the move Rain Dance or Sandstorm.

btw, smogon tiers donot apply to doubles. And lol, you don't even know that. Do some god-damned research before making statements which get you embarrassed.

Oh, noes! People had to think of a strategy other than Scarves and Hyper-Offense??
It is clear to me that you haven't battled in the metagame.

There's no such thing as a 'legit hack'. The very term contradicts itself.
Again do some research. Google is your friend.

... or they can't think of their own tactics. Smogon shows the most obvious ways to brainlessly min-max any given pokemon.
If people want to use smogon sets, so be it. Who are you to tell others to stop?

That would involve me actually playing by their BS rules. And BTW, anyone going to the site for the first time could make the same mistake I did.
No they don't. I have encountered hundreds of beginners in my last 1.5 years of battling and all of them have been sensible and knowledgeable.

Get off your high Smogon-loving horse.
or stop posting bullshit and learn to respect people who know what they are doing.

If you don't respect my opinion, fine; go hack yourself some pokemon and play on a simulator using Smogon's bans. Niether you or Smogon is going to change my mind about how I'll play or whether or not I'll use SolarBeam. Your attitude reflecting said opinion ('this is so better stronger so only lamerz wud not use it and yer dum') also pretty much sums up why I don't like Smogonners and other assorted power-gamers. I guess I actually should thank you for giving a better example than I ever could.
And you expect people to take you credibly when you have done nothing in this entire place except for giving baseless arguments or generalizing?
 
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Chomp was banned for its ability to abuse hax and potentially come out on top against many of its so called counters. Excadrill single handedly turned the metagame into a bulky based one and completely eliminated scarfed mons and Hyper offense. They both centralized the metagame and that is why they were banned. Not because, the smogon whiners couldn't kill it. Both these mons were tested over a period of one year. It was not some knee jerk reaction.
But then why was it so "centralized"? If people were to switch their teams to counter Excadrill then the Excadrill players would stop basing strategies around it... no need to ban it.
You don't get it. If the entire game was to turn into "Excadrill and how to counter it" thats centralizing. Thats NOT fun. If your entire team has to revovle around how to not get murdered by Excadrill, there's a problem with balance.

When Smogon bans a Pokemon, it isn;t just a decision taken by one person or a handful. The top players are gathered and they nominate suspects first. Then there are two voting sessions running parallel with suspect tests. For a Pokemon to get banned, it needs to get a majority in both sessions. This isn't a knee jerk reaction. Voting sessions and suspect tests take weeks to finish. They are carefully debated by the top players who are in a better position to judge whether a Pokemon is broken or not. You being able to beat said Pokemon when it was probably being used by someone with less experience doesn't mean said Pokemon isn't broken.

@Stratago Okay I incorrectly remembered Solar Beams power but you seem to have no idea how Weather Teams are made. It isn't just Water types with Swift Swim and Drizzletoed.

A standard rain team consists of DrizzleToed, A Swift Swim abuser or two(before the ban) atleast two Pokemon who specificaly counter Pokemon who threaten rain teams and a Wall.

Lets take your scenario. You are about to you Solar Beam in the sun against a rain team. The opponent switches in DriizzleToed and forces Solar Beam to charge. Now do seriously believe a Pokemon weak to Grass is going to remain in or switch in especially when the player knows you are forced to use Solar Beam on the next turn? No. The opponent is going to switch into a Pokemon that resist Grass or are neutral to it. How many such Pokemon are common on Rain teams? Dry Skin Toxicroak who resists Grass and Ludicolo who is neutral but has a shitton of Special Defense and can easily tank it especially if its Rain Dish version.

How about hail? The only Pokemon with Snow Warning is Abomasnow who already resists Grass and carries the moves to screw up a Grass type thats been locked into Solar Beam.

Sand? After setting up Sand Stream, the opponent switches into a Steel Type which are very common even without weather. The most common one? Ferrothorn who has a double resistance to Grass. Your Solar Beam ain't gonna do shit to it.

Even Sun can screw with Solar Beam by switching in a Fire Type who are obviously common on Sun Teams. Since no Grass type can reliably counter a Fire Type, you are forced to switch out giving your opponent a free turn.

Solar Beam is a liability. If you use it, you're just asking for a beat down.

Now lets see some intelligent arguements from some who atleast knows the basics otherwise I'm done with this thread. I've yet to see one proper arguement against Smogon's bannings that doesn't come the posters personal experience.
 
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Let me quote bulbapedia: SolarBeam will not need a turn to charge if used during the effects of the move Sunny Day, and will only deal half of its normal damage if used during the effect of the move Rain Dance or Sandstorm.
...Right. And Exeggcute is a grass-type, so it gets STAB. 120 x .5 = 60. 60 + 120 = 180. 180 / 2 = 90, which is 30 less than 120. 120 / 4 = 30. Therefore, 25%.

...smogon tiers donot apply to doubles. And lol, you don't even know that. Do some god-damned research before making statements which get you embarrassed.
Do your own research. I wasn't even talking about Smogon cc Solarbeam. My original comment about that was that it's effectively the same thing as a rain-dance powered water-type attack. If I embarrassed you, I apologize.
Lord Clowncrete said:
Stratago said:
Oh, noes! People had to think of a strategy other than Scarves and Hyper-Offense??
...There's no such thing as a 'legit hack'. The very term contradicts itself.
It is clear to me that you haven't battled in the metagame.
By Smogon's own logic, shouldn't scarves and Hyper-offense be banned? They seem to ban other popular tactics. And I stand by what I said about 'legit hacks'. If it's a hack, it's a hack. If it's legit, it's legit. If it's a hack created inside of parameters which are possible in-game, it's still a hack.
Lord Clowncrete said:
Stratago said:
... or they can't think of their own tactics. Smogon shows the most obvious ways to brainlessly min-max any given pokemon.
If people want to use smogon sets, so be it. Who are you to tell others to stop?
I'm not telling people to stop using their movesets. I'm saying, for what seems like the umpteenth time, that Smogon's rules affect more than themselves. If they, an allegedly respectable group, deems something is 'broken', then, by jove, it must be, right? So everyone follows, member or not, which screws up casual play as much as it does super-competitive play.
One more thing: as for you saying that I should 'learn to respect people who know what they're doing' (which I note you changed before I could even finish this post), you should know that to get respect, you first must give respect.
 
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Dude, just stop this.

So what if people want to follow their rules? It is THEIR choice, not yours. If you don't want to follow Smogon, that's fine nobody is forcing you, but don't go around saying that we can't just because you don't like Smogon's way. So please stop acting like some dictator, telling us what rules we can or cannot follow. And if that's not what you are trying to imply, well it sure as heck seems like it. Just drop it. We get it, you don't like Smogon. But here you are making a hissy fit about it.

And how exactly is Smogon even affecting casual playing in the slightest? Most competitive battlers meet each other in tournaments or on the internet, am I am MOST certain our numbers are completely outnumbered by casual players who just decide to randomly go on wifi to battle a random stranger. People who usually follow Smogon are usually more serious battlers.
 
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Stratago said:
Do your own research. I wasn't even talking about Smogon cc Solarbeam. My original comment about that was that it's effectively the same thing as a rain-dance powered water-type attack. If I embarrassed you, I apologize.
Actually, in the interest of full disclosure, your original comment was that you didn't understand why Smogon banned Drizzle+Swift Swim and not Drought+Chlorophyll. This applies only to the singles metagame, so by extension, either LC successfully countered your argument, or you veered completely off course and began discussing something completely different and irrelevant to the original discussion. Pick one.

I'm not telling people to stop using their movesets. I'm saying, for what seems like the umpteenth time, that Smogon's rules affect more than themselves. If they, an allegedly respectable group, deems something is 'broken', then, by jove, it must be, right? So everyone follows, member or not, which screws up casual play as much as it does super-competitive play.
One more thing: as for you saying that I should 'learn to respect people who know what they're doing' (which I note you changed before I could even finish this post), you should know that to get respect, you first must give respect.
While you are well within your rights to be frustrated by the practice, you cannot blame Smogon for it. Smogon is a site that does its own thing for its own audience. It never, at any point, declared itself the authority on competitive battling. Other people declared it the authority on competitive battling and that is something that is completely beyond their control. If this affects casual players, it isn't Smogon's fault. It's said players' fault.
 
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Okay I incorrectly remembered Solar Beams power but you seem to have no idea how Weather Teams are made. It isn't just Water types with Swift Swim and Drizzletoed.

A standard rain team consists of DrizzleToed, A Swift Swim abuser or two(before the ban) atleast two Pokemon who specificaly counter Pokemon who threaten rain teams and a Wall.

Lets take your scenario. You are about to you Solar Beam in the sun against a rain team. The opponent switches in DriizzleToed and forces Solar Beam to charge. Now do seriously believe a Pokemon weak to Grass is going to remain in or switch in especially when the player knows you are forced to use Solar Beam on the next turn? No. The opponent is going to switch into a Pokemon that resist Grass or are neutral to it. How many such Pokemon are common on Rain teams? Dry Skin Toxicroak who resists Grass and Ludicolo who is neutral but has a shitton of Special Defense and can easily tank it especially if its Rain Dish version.

How about hail? The only Pokemon with Snow Warning is Abomasnow who already resists Grass and carries the moves to screw up a Grass type thats been locked into Solar Beam.

Sand? After setting up Sand Stream, the opponent switches into a Steel Type which are very common even without weather. The most common one? Ferrothorn who has a double resistance to Grass. Your Solar Beam ain't gonna do shit to it.

Even Sun can screw with Solar Beam by switching in a Fire Type who are obviously common on Sun Teams. Since no Grass type can reliably counter a Fire Type, you are forced to switch out giving your opponent a free turn.

Solar Beam is a liability. If you use it, you're just asking for a beat down.
Sorry if I wasn't clear before, but I was referring to Doubles.

It seems to me that my Solarbeam conversation has gone something like this:
Me: "Swift Swim + Rain is banned. Boo!"
X: "Swift Swim + Rain is broken"
Me: "Chlorophyll + Sun is just as broken"
X: "In rain moves like Hydro Pump get boosted"
Me: "In sun Solarbeam fires in one round"
X: "In rain Solarbeam is weak"
Me: "You'd need a Drizzletoed to counter Drought. Since most rain teams are water-type, Solarbeam is still good"
Everyone: "No it's not, and here's why..."
At this point, the conversation kinda got off track, and became 'other weather-based teams trump sun/grass'.
 
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Dude, just stop this.
So what if people want to follow their rules? It is THEIR choice, not yours. If you don't want to follow Smogon, that's fine nobody is forcing you, but don't go around saying that we can't just because you don't like Smogon's way. So please stop acting like some dictator, telling us what rules we can or cannot follow. And if that's not what you are trying to imply, well it sure as heck seems like it. Just drop it. We get it, you don't like Smogon. But here you are making a hissy fit about it.

And how exactly is Smogon even affecting casual playing in the slightest? Most competitive battlers meet each other in tournaments or on the internet, am I am MOST certain our numbers are completely outnumbered by casual players who just decide to randomly go on wifi to battle a random stranger. People who usually follow Smogon are usually more serious battlers.
Oh, for the love of... I'm NOT saying people CAN'T follow their rules. I'm saying, perhaps too passionately, that I think their rules are stupid. I'm saying that we don't need a group that posts what are essentially 'house rules' on their website, which affect the way people play the game because they assuming such rules are official.
Why are you so vehemently against my opinion, anyway? It's just an opinion. You can either read it and think, 'huh, that's about something...' or, 'what a load of crap', and then reply. If you don't like my idea, that's fine. Reshiram would have chosen you instead of Zekrom. If my opinion offends you in some way, I'm sorry. But it's just my opinion, and something I feel strongly about. Your saying I'm acting like a dictator but then commanding me to stop speaking my mind seems like the pot calling the kettle black.
 
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Actually, in the interest of full disclosure, your original comment was that you didn't understand why Smogon banned Drizzle+Swift Swim and not Drought+Chlorophyll. This applies only to the singles metagame, so by extension, either LC successfully countered your argument, or you veered completely off course and began discussing something completely different and irrelevant to the original discussion. Pick one.
'Original' wasn't the right word. I did go off on a tangent because of an argument earlier in the thread, and I was referencing that. That was my mistake.
While you are well within your rights to be frustrated by the practice, you cannot blame Smogon for it. Smogon is a site that does its own thing for its own audience. It never, at any point, declared itself the authority on competitive battling. Other people declared it the authority on competitive battling and that is something that is completely beyond their control. If this affects casual players, it isn't Smogon's fault. It's said players' fault.
I edited my first post to attempt to say that this morning. Maybe I should change the name of the thread itself...
To clarify: I'm frustrated at Smogon (and other communities like it which I don't know the names of) as a collective because it's the source of all these power-gamers'/ignorants' attitudes and practices. It's popped up multiple times for me - people who may or may not have been members of Smogon have used it as a reference as to determine what was allowed and wasn't allowed in multiplayer. People have turned down matches because my team wasn't in the right 'tier', or that it crossed them.
Thanks, BTW, for not being one of the many who have just said 'yer rong, smogon's good'. seemingly by default. I started this thread in part to see if I was the only one who felt this way or had experiences like those. I kinda think I'm closer to what I'd consider a 'solution' now.
 
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Dude, just stop this.
So what if people want to follow their rules? It is THEIR choice, not yours. If you don't want to follow Smogon, that's fine nobody is forcing you, but don't go around saying that we can't just because you don't like Smogon's way. So please stop acting like some dictator, telling us what rules we can or cannot follow. And if that's not what you are trying to imply, well it sure as heck seems like it. Just drop it. We get it, you don't like Smogon. But here you are making a hissy fit about it.

And how exactly is Smogon even affecting casual playing in the slightest? Most competitive battlers meet each other in tournaments or on the internet, am I am MOST certain our numbers are completely outnumbered by casual players who just decide to randomly go on wifi to battle a random stranger. People who usually follow Smogon are usually more serious battlers.
Oh, for the love of... I'm NOT saying people CAN'T follow their rules. I'm saying, perhaps too passionately, that I think their rules are stupid. I'm saying that we don't need a group that posts what are essentially 'house rules' on their website, which affect the way people play the game because they assuming such rules are official.
Why are you so vehemently against my opinion, anyway? It's just an opinion. You can either read it and think, 'huh, that's about something...' or, 'what a load of crap', and then reply. If you don't like my idea, that's fine. Reshiram would have chosen you instead of Zekrom. If my opinion offends you in some way, I'm sorry. But it's just my opinion, and something I feel strongly about. Your saying I'm acting like a dictator but then commanding me to stop speaking my mind seems like the pot calling the kettle black.
I'm not offended by anything. Why would I be. Rather, I am getting irritated by how much of a fuss you're putting up over rules and bans that you don't have to follow.

I can understand why not following those rules would be hard though, considering you'd have a difficult time finding someone who would be willing to play more casually, but still. I'm just saying, give it a rest already.

And in regards to "Reshiram would choose me over Zekrom", you do realize that Reshiram represents truth right? I'm under the impression that you think my thinking is idealistic.
 
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Those tiers don't even apply to doubles :|

Doubles, Triples and Rotations are an unregulated mess.

And people are against you because you're hostile Smogon for something that isn't their fault. Pokemon is unbalanced. Thats a massive understatement. Smogon is the only site which has succeeded in balancing it as much as possible where so many have spectacularly failed. But instead of praising them for what they did right, people like focus only on what you think are stupid rules and bans which were proved to be neccessary in the long run.

Also, those official tournaments have theeir own rules. Go play there. I can understand if thats not feasible since they don't happen regularly and are region based but yeah...
 
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I edited my first post to attempt to say that this morning. Maybe I should change the name of the thread itself...
To clarify: I'm frustrated at Smogon (and other communities like it which I don't know the names of) as a collective because it's the source of all these power-gamers'/ignorants' attitudes and practices. It's popped up multiple times for me - people who may or may not have been members of Smogon have used it as a reference as to determine what was allowed and wasn't allowed in multiplayer. People have turned down matches because my team wasn't in the right 'tier', or that it crossed them.
Thanks, BTW, for not being one of the many who have just said 'yer rong, smogon's good'. seemingly by default. I started this thread in part to see if I was the only one who felt this way or had experiences like those. I kinda think I'm closer to what I'd consider a 'solution' now.[/QUOTE]

cross tier teams are perfectly acceptable on smogon and simulators you just can't have pokemon from higher tiers on your team lets say in a uu battle you have something from ou that isn't acceptable but you can use anyone from the lower tiers it sounds like you were playing with people who didn't understand the rules and now your complaining about yours and their lack of understanding of how the tiers work and the reasons for banning certain pokemon
 
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...you do realize that Reshiram represents truth right? I'm under the impression that you think my thinking is idealistic.
I was more referring to the fact that 'ideals' are harder to accept because they usually go against the grain. I was implying that my line of thought is idealistic. After all, I'm talking about how things 'should be' rather than 'how they are'.
 
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...you do realize that Reshiram represents truth right? I'm under the impression that you think my thinking is idealistic.
I was more referring to the fact that 'ideals' are harder to accept because they usually go against the grain. I was implying that my line of thought is idealistic. After all, I'm talking about how things 'should be' rather than 'how they are'.
Isn't that a given? Idealistic thinking is usually unrealistic, or wishful thinking.

The fact that Smogon is still a major influence on the metagame is the truth, and so is the fact that the majority of people agree with its rules and why we have been arguing over this in this thread. It seems a little pointless to me to argue how things "should be".
 
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