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Smogon (and others') banning of Pokemon; who are they to decide??

Is Evasion truly broken, or are there counters to it that can be used?

  • Yes! Double Team / Minimize is evil, and should be banned forever!

    Votes: 3 21.4%
  • No! There are are 15 moves that counter it (+5 more, depending) and items/abilities, too!

    Votes: 11 78.6%

  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .
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70% Critical Hit Rate
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cross tier teams are perfectly acceptable on smogon and simulators you just can't have pokemon from higher tiers on your team lets say in a uu battle you have something from ou that isn't acceptable but you can use anyone from the lower tiers it sounds like you were playing with people who didn't understand the rules and now your complaining about yours and their lack of understanding of how the tiers work and the reasons for banning certain pokemon
I hope this doesn't offend you, but my english teacher would draw and quarter you for this post. She's such a grammar nazi...
Anyway.
Yes, that is what I'm saying. Smogon makes a rule. Someone reads a rule. He/She tells all his/her friends the rule. The 'telephone' game starts. Before long, the Smogon rule is just a 'rule' that everyone 'knows'. Additionally, their example movesets, in my opinion, pidgeonhole pokes into certain positions, and then they are defined as such. I'm sure that this will just start another wave of people telling me that I'm wrong, but I don't think any Pokemon should be banned for any reason because they all have weaknesses.
Also, where are these simulators that everyone keeps talking about?
 
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...you do realize that Reshiram represents truth right? I'm under the impression that you think my thinking is idealistic.
I was more referring to the fact that 'ideals' are harder to accept because they usually go against the grain. I was implying that my line of thought is idealistic. After all, I'm talking about how things 'should be' rather than 'how they are'.
Isn't that a given? Idealistic thinking is usually unrealistic, or wishful thinking.

The fact that Smogon is still a major influence on the metagame is the truth, and so is the fact that the majority of people agree with its rules and why we have been arguing over this in this thread. It seems a little pointless to me to argue how things "should be".
Yet I will, because I believe it shouldn't be.
 
Previously known as 'Isamu Akai'
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Yes all Pokemon have weaknesses. But unfortunately, there are some Pokemon out there that are too good that MAKE the competition UN-FUN. I believe Feliciano has already explained this. I myself used to have a lot of fun with competitive play until Game Freak introduced Stealth Rock, the very bane of me.

Okay, continue arguing then. Let's see if you can change the minds of hundreds of people. Go on, do it.
 
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@ Isamu Akai: The way you feel about Stealth Rock is the way I feel about Smogon.
I'm didn't start this thread trying to change anybody's mind, I just wanted to see if anyone agreed with me, and a few people do.
...But wouldn't it be cool if I did change the minds of hundreds?

@ KingPorky: Thanks. I'll look into it.
@ KingPorky (after): So, it's kinda like a theoretical team-tester... or a substitute for actual wi-fi pvp. Interesting, but I think I'll pass.
 
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The Professor
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Ah, Stealth Rock... I feel you on that one, Isamu Akai. That one move completely ruined the metagame for me. You want to talk about something being over-centralizing, that is it. At least Spikes and Toxic Spikes require multiple uses to become dangerous. With one move, you have just ensured damage on anything weak to Rock... and may God help you if you have a 4x weakness. Poor, poor Charizard and Yanmega will never be more than RU because of it.
Looks like GameFreak realized they screwed up by removing it as a TM and making only certain Pokemon learn it in Gen V, but its already too late seeing as how everyone and their mother can learn it in Gen IV...
 
Previously known as 'Isamu Akai'
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@ Isamu Akai: The way you feel about Stealth Rock is the way I feel about Smogon.
I'm didn't start this thread trying to change anybody's mind, I just wanted to see if anyone agreed with me, and a few people do.
...But wouldn't it be cool if I did change the minds of hundreds?
At least I didn't make a hissy fit about Stealth Rock.

And no, it wouldn't be cool, because then the entire metagame would be in an even worse mess if everything did change. Smogon is both a blessing and a curse to the community, but because of the way they have balanced it out for the most part, they are more of a blessing than a curse.
 
Not a Power Ranger
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Additionally, their example movesets, in my opinion, pidgeonhole pokes into certain positions, and then they are defined as such.
Wait, what? Some Pokemon are only good for one thing. Thats just fact. Nothing is gonna change that. A Physical Sweeping Blissey ain't gonna work neithr will a Wall Infernape or something.

Smogon goes out of its way to list alternate roles to Pokemon whenever its somewhat feasible. Smogon isn't pidgeonholing anything. Game Freak did that when they designed the Pokemon. All Smogon does is point out the roles that best suita Pokemon.
 
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At least I didn't make a hissy fit about Stealth Rock.
And no, it wouldn't be cool, because then the entire metagame would be in an even worse mess if everything did change. Smogon is both a blessing and a curse to the community, but because of the way they have balanced it out for the most part, they are more of a blessing than a curse.
To quote Wikipedia:
"Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.
In simple terms, it is the use of out-of-game information or resources to affect one's in-game decisions.
"
By this definition, Smogon and other sites like it ( I should just get a list...) create their own metagame(s).
And if I'm throwing a hissy fit, then you're acting like a sullen child for continuing to argue.
 
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Additionally, their example movesets, in my opinion, pidgeonhole pokes into certain positions, and then they are defined as such.
Wait, what? Some Pokemon are only good for one thing. Thats just fact. Nothing is gonna change that. A Physical Sweeping Blissey ain't gonna work neithr will a Wall Infernape or something.

Smogon goes out of its way to list alternate roles to Pokemon whenever its somewhat feasible. Smogon isn't pidgeonholing anything. Game Freak did that when they designed the Pokemon. All Smogon does is point out the roles that best suita Pokemon.
They do post alternates, yes, but those alternates again make it so that the player doesn't have to come up with their own strategies or ideas. Somebody did at some point, and then everyone copies them. TCGs are the same way; I don't play Magic anymore because all anybody's deck consists of is spamming the same card x4, with some other card x4, ad nauseum.
I was29 when I got my first computer because I've more or less been flat broke my whole life. I've built dozens of teams over time using only the 'pocket pokedex' books and come up with things that I never would have, IMO, had I been influenced by sites like Smogon and their opinions of what certain pokemon were and weren't 'for'.
You say 'best suit', which may be so, but it still feels wrong.
"Even a nobody can beat a super-elite with the right training."
 
Previously known as 'Isamu Akai'
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I was debating actually. But you're right, I guess I am that sullen child. That said, I'm done here, I grow tired of this endless circle of debating.

I'm just saying, you are taking this way too personally. I too am passionate with some things, and I grow frustrated with the metagame as well, especially with these past few generations, but I let it slide and move on. Hence why I didn't complain about Stealth Rock. But in the same light, the ever changing metagame is good, because things would get boring if things always stayed the same. The rule changes and bans are great because it keeps you on the tips of your toes, and encourages you to try something different. You can't get comfortable with the same kind of team forever. Now that is fun.

But whatever, I'm done here. I got stuff to do anyway.
 
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I was debating actually. But you're right, I guess I am that sullen child. That said, I'm done here, I grow tired of this endless circle of debating.

I'm just saying, you are taking this way too personally. I too am passionate with some things, and I grow frustrated with the metagame as well, especially with these past few generations, but I let it slide and move on. Hence why I didn't complain about Stealth Rock. But in the same light, the ever changing metagame is good, because things would get boring if things always stayed the same. The rule changes and bans are great because it keeps you on the tips of your toes, and encourages you to try something different. You can't get comfortable with the same kind of team forever. Now that is fun.

But whatever, I'm done here. I got stuff to do anyway.
Have fun, and good luck~
 
...I think we're lost.
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Things seem to be getting out of hand off and on throughout this thread. While a debate is not a bad thing, doing things such as calling others a "sullen child," or telling others that they must "learn to respect people who know what they're doing," or even telling people to "get off their high horse" is not a way to do this. Unless this debate is able to carry on in a civilized manner, a closing of this thread will be imminent, and infractions may be given out.

Remember, debate is good. Taking an insulting tone (well, perhaps tone isn't the best word to use here, as this is all text-based, but I am sure that everyone knows what I mean) toward those who you are debating with is not.
 
All hail me!
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@Stratago;

...Right. And Exeggcute is a grass-type, so it gets STAB. 120 x .5 = 60. 60 + 120 = 180. 180 / 2 = 90, which is 30 less than 120. 120 / 4 = 30. Therefore, 25%.
Your maths is wrong. 90 = 0.5 of 180. So it is 50%.

Do your own research. I wasn't even talking about Smogon cc Solarbeam. My original comment about that was that it's effectively the same thing as a rain-dance powered water-type attack. If I embarrassed you, I apologize.
No, the original comment was how "wrong it was of smogon to ban excadrill" Smogon bans donot apply to doubles. So, thats a moot point.

By Smogon's own logic, shouldn't scarves and Hyper-offense be banned? They seem to ban other popular tactics. And I stand by what I said about 'legit hacks'. If it's a hack, it's a hack. If it's legit, it's legit. If it's a hack created inside of parameters which are possible in-game, it's still a hack.
Smogon doesn't ban stuff because stuff is popular. They ban stuff when stuff starts centralizing the game in a harmful manner. Excadrill cut down the number of strategies viable. Scarf mons or hyper-offense donot cut down on the number of strategies.

Legit hack is a widely used metagame term and it has been in use for atleast 5 years. One person complaining about the usage of words does not change the fact.

I'm not telling people to stop using their movesets. I'm saying, for what seems like the umpteenth time, that Smogon's rules affect more than themselves. If they, an allegedly respectable group, deems something is 'broken', then, by jove, it must be, right? So everyone follows, member or not, which screws up casual play as much as it does super-competitive play.
If people make their own choices, whats the problem? People will use what they want to use.

One more thing: as for you saying that I should 'learn to respect people who know what they're doing' (which I note you changed before I could even finish this post), you should know that to get respect, you first must give respect.
Saying the same thing I am saying.


btw, I will say about the smogon destroying creativity part. Many of the sets which are now considered standard were created by users like you and me in the past. Subdisable Gengar, tyraniboah, etc. Seeing their effectiveness, more people started using them and they became standard. If people want to use standards, then it is because these sets have stood the tests of time. It makes more sense to use a salamence with dragon dance/ outrage/earthquake/ fire blast than using a set of fly/ dragon pulse/ Fire Fang/ Rock slide. The smogon guides are for the people who want to step into battling. It is also a way to find out what is hot and what is not. They are sets which are effective and have been tested for hours and months. It is natural that people follow what is effective.

As for people copying smogon sets, it is not smogon's fault that people want to use their sets. Smogon gives the community resources. It is the people who decide what to use or not. It is just like science. Science gives you the tools. It is the people's fault if they use it wrong.
 
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KYUREM FORMS ERRYWHERE
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If you're tired of smogon's restrictiveness I recommend trying your hand at official Nintendo metagames (PGL tournaments, VGC, random match-up). They give the player much more leeway in formulating different, seemingly "broken" strategies and are plenty of fun to play in general.
 
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If you're tired of smogon's restrictiveness I recommend trying your hand at official Nintendo metagames (PGL tournaments, VGC, random match-up). They give the player much more leeway in formulating different, seemingly "broken" strategies and are plenty of fun to play in general.
I wish I could compete in the VCGs (there wouldn't be a bunch of non-existant rules) but I don't live anywhere near anyplace where they hold them. I couldn't compete in the last PGL tourney due to scheduling, but I'll prolly be able to this time.
 
Not a Power Ranger
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If you're tired of smogon's restrictiveness I recommend trying your hand at official Nintendo metagames (PGL tournaments, VGC, random match-up). They give the player much more leeway in formulating different, seemingly "broken" strategies and are plenty of fun to play in general.
I wish I could compete in the VCGs (there wouldn't be a bunch of non-existant rules) but I don't live anywhere near anyplace where they hold them. I couldn't compete in the last PGL tourney due to scheduling, but I'll prolly be able to this time.
There's still Random Match-up. The only Pokemon not allowed are Event and Cover Legendaries. No tiers. And no way for the opponent to enforce them. The only downside is that its 3 on 3 only.
 
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If you're tired of smogon's restrictiveness I recommend trying your hand at official Nintendo metagames (PGL tournaments, VGC, random match-up). They give the player much more leeway in formulating different, seemingly "broken" strategies and are plenty of fun to play in general.
I wish I could compete in the VCGs (there wouldn't be a bunch of non-existant rules) but I don't live anywhere near anyplace where they hold them. I couldn't compete in the last PGL tourney due to scheduling, but I'll prolly be able to this time.
There's still Random Match-up. The only Pokemon not allowed are Event and Cover Legendaries. No tiers. And no way for the opponent to enforce them. The only downside is that its 3 on 3 only.
That's not the only downside for me, but I like to play with people I can see & talk to. And people on random matchup have a bad habit of 'losing connection' if they're losing or they don't think my team is 'alllowed' (the latter is speculation, but since it was my TTar + XDrill team, I'm assuming so,) so I've kinda given up on it out of frustration.
 
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They aren't "enforcing" the laws. They're stating that "Uber" Pokemon are too powerful compared to other Pokemon so if all Pokemon were allowed, eventually only those Pokemon would be used. Then to "restart" the game, they would ban those Pokemon. Then the "OU" Pokemon would be used, (Replace Uber with OU, replace OU with BL, ...). Also, at least some of the "laws" are enforced by Nintendo(eg. sleep clause), not Smogon, so Smogon has no say in at least some of that.

What I'm saying is, even if this stuff didn't exist, the Metagame would ocur naturally; The laws aren't entirely Smogon's fault.



Besides, then you can pwn noobs.
 
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This is just a game.
Don't take it too seriously guys ^^
Do something else worthwhile, if you're not in a mood playing Pokemon, like skiing, camping, baking cookies, having a tea party, etc.

Or clean your entire house by yourself :p
 
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