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Smogon (and others') banning of Pokemon; who are they to decide??

Is Evasion truly broken, or are there counters to it that can be used?

  • Yes! Double Team / Minimize is evil, and should be banned forever!

    Votes: 3 21.4%
  • No! There are are 15 moves that counter it (+5 more, depending) and items/abilities, too!

    Votes: 11 78.6%

  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .
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I don't mind smogon banning the mons that would "break" the metagame. Then again when I do play competitively I usually am playing in the lower tiers anyway. Really smogon has just been trying to clean up and organize the competitive scene and I actually appreciate it because I like to play the lower tiers where some of my favorites are anyways. This way I can actually use some of my favorite Pokemon in a competitive scene.
 
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@ Agnad: By 'not a complete jerk', I meant that, unlike the majority of people I know who are avid Smogon members, he doesn't look down his nose at me for not being a member. I avoid elitist d-bags and closed-minded people as much as possible.
Checking Sally, to me, is moot. I don't switch Pokemon in to deal with a target except when using U-turn or Baton Pass; I just hit it as hard as possible and then revenge KO it. Revenge could be achieved using a Weavile's Ice Shard, particularly if its holding a Scarf, Life Orb or Nevermeltice.

@ Calcium: You didn't mention numbers or popularity, I did.
You said that they were justified in making bans because their community voted them in. I said, because the vote is only made by Smogonners, that it shouldn't affect people who aren't. My principal issue with Smogon is when its members act all superior to non-members, then they try to justify their attitudes by saying, 'Smogon has experience and they vote stuff in, so they must be right'. Additionally, this seems to be just about everyone's argument against what I think in this thread. I'm saying that just because a test group who wanted to make rules made rules, it doesn't make said rules good rules that everybody should use. I think I've said this three different ways, now.
 
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Checking Sally, to me, is moot. I don't switch Pokemon in to deal with a target except when using U-turn or Baton Pass; I just hit it as hard as possible and then revenge KO it. Revenge could be achieved using a Weavile's Ice Shard, particularly if its holding a Scarf, Life Orb or Nevermeltice.
But then Salamence still took out one of your Pokemon. That's 1/6 of your team already out of the battle. And what about people that don't like or care about using Ice Shard (or Ice type Pokemon in general?) How would they deal with Salamence?

You said that they were justified in making bans because their community voted them in. I said, because the vote is only made by Smogonners, that it shouldn't affect people who aren't. My principal issue with Smogon is when its members act all superior to non-members, then they try to justify their attitudes by saying, 'Smogon has experience and they vote stuff in, so they must be right'. Additionally, this seems to be just about everyone's argument against what I think in this thread. I'm saying that just because a test group who wanted to make rules made rules, it doesn't make said rules good rules that everybody should use. I think I've said this three different ways, now.
It seems you're focusing on a vocal minority of d-bags. Most Smogonites I know are rather pleasant people that have nothing against non-members. Mostly, the Smogon community keep to themselves. You had a bad experience with some assholes, so now you blame all of Smogon for that. Is that really fair?

Speaking of fair, Smogon doesn't lord its rules over anybody other than the members of the Smogon community. If other people want to follow those rules, that's their decision as much as not following them is yours. Smogon members don't go around hitting people with a stick until they submit to their rules. They make their rules for their own community. What outsiders do with that is neither their problem nor their fault.

If that guy at the comic book store wants to follow Smogon's tier rules, it isn't because Smogon is holding his wife hostage and forcing him to, it's because he wants to play that way. And he has every right to do that, just like you have every right to not do that.
 
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@ Calcium: You didn't mention numbers or popularity, I did.
You said that they were justified in making bans because their community voted them in. I said, because the vote is only made by Smogonners, that it shouldn't affect people who aren't. My principal issue with Smogon is when its members act all superior to non-members, then they try to justify their attitudes by saying, 'Smogon has experience and they vote stuff in, so they must be right'. Additionally, this seems to be just about everyone's argument against what I think in this thread. I'm saying that just because a test group who wanted to make rules made rules, it doesn't make said rules good rules that everybody should use. I think I've said this three different ways, now.
Definately agreed, I feel that the rules set fourth by smogon should not be 'official' (and I use that term loosely). Pokemon banned or combos banned should be on a case by case for what tournament.

Now...

I have no problem placeing pokemon in tiers, but I don't think tiers should be what tournaments base the banned pokemon off of...

Why doesn't smogon take a tip from Yu-gi-oh? Yu-gi-oh has an 'Advanced list' in which overpowered cards are banned, However... this is balanced by a 'traditional' list in which banned cards are limited to one only and the ones which are limited (to one or two in advance) you can now use (2 or 3)

So in summary, Smogon should have a second tier list were their is a group of pokemon you can have 1 per team and some you can have 2 for team instead of banning?


Thank you,
Tye Taylors
 
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Checking Sally, to me, is moot. I don't switch Pokemon in to deal with a target except when using U-turn or Baton Pass; I just hit it as hard as possible and then revenge KO it. Revenge could be achieved using a Weavile's Ice Shard, particularly if its holding a Scarf, Life Orb or Nevermeltice.
But then Salamence still took out one of your Pokemon. That's 1/6 of your team already out of the battle. And what about people that don't like or care about using Ice Shard (or Ice type Pokemon in general?) How would they deal with Salamence?
That's true, revenge KOing Salamence in one shot would then restore it to 5 vs 5. Also, any dragon-type makes for an anti-dragon-type. (The cynic in me would say Garchomp, since it's banned, but I digress.) What about Porygon 2 or Z?
Grass Type Trainer said:
It seems you're focusing on a vocal minority of d-bags. Most Smogonites I know are rather pleasant people that have nothing against non-members.
...Smogon members don't go around hitting people with a stick until they submit to their rules.
Everywhere I've looked online, any time that anyone says 'I don't like Smogon', they are bombarded by people who seem to feel the need to prove him/her wrong, and wave the Smogon flag while singing its praises. That or they get attitude and say 'if you don't like it, then good luck finding someone else to play with'. to me it seems like 'those kind' of Smogonners are the majority. Or perhaps it's like you say, and the majority really is a civil lot who doesn't feel the need to go around flaming or trying to 'convert' the person.

Either way it doesn't really matter to me. Tiers, Clauses, Bans, whatever else, I don't agree with any of them. I'm not saying that Smogon can't or shouldn't use them. I don't think I ever did, and if I did, I was either wrong or didn't get my point across properly. If they want to have special rules, bully for them. My problem (man, I've said this a lot...) is when their rules start creeping into casual, non-Smogon play, and when the 'Smogon = God' clique feels the need to flame anyone who disagrees with them.
 
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@ Calcium: You didn't mention numbers or popularity, I did.
You said that they were justified in making bans because their community voted them in.
For the last time: I did not say that. In fact, you just contradicted yourself there. You said I didn't mention popularity, then you said I did mention voting, which kind of comes with popularity. And by "as the community chooses", I meant "as each individual person wants to use them for their own battles." Even if I didn't make that clear enough the first time, I've repeated already that I don't care about the popularity/voting of the rules, just that if certain people like them, those certain people can use them. Please, for the love of all that is just and righteous in the universe, for every tentacool in the ocean and every zubat in Dark Cave, stop saying that's what I said!
I said, because the vote is only made by Smogonners, that it shouldn't affect people who aren't. My principal issue with Smogon is when its members act all superior to non-members, then they try to justify their attitudes by saying, 'Smogon has experience and they vote stuff in, so they must be right'. Additionally, this seems to be just about everyone's argument against what I think in this thread. I'm saying that just because a test group who wanted to make rules made rules, it doesn't make said rules good rules that everybody should use. I think I've said this three different ways, now.
I know what you're saying, and I agree that the rules being popular doesn't make them right, but if Smogon like them why can't they use them? So what if they're bad or not? You can still continue to not use them with other like-minded people. Now if Smogon forced its community to use rules the members didn't like, there'd be a problem, whether the rules were perfect in your eyes or not.

I'm going to go look at pictures of cats now.
 
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@ Calcium: You didn't mention numbers or popularity, I did.
You said that they were justified in making bans because their community voted them in.
For the last time: I did not say that. In fact, you just contradicted yourself there. You said I didn't mention popularity, then you said I did mention voting, which kind of comes with popularity. And by "as the community chooses", I meant "as each individual person wants to use them for their own battles." Even if I didn't make that clear enough the first time, I've repeated already that I don't care about the popularity/voting of the rules, just that if certain people like them, those certain people can use them. Please, for the love of all that is just and righteous in the universe, for every tentacool in the ocean and every zubat in Dark Cave, stop saying that's what I said!
Sorry. What I should have typed was 'It seems to me as though you are implying they were justified in making bans because their community voted them in'; a statement of opinion, not of fact. Again, sorry.
Calcium said:
I know what you're saying, and I agree that the rules being popular doesn't make them right, but if Smogon like them why can't they use them?
Please, for the love of all that is just and righteous in the universe, for every tentacool in the ocean and every zubat in Dark Cave, stop saying... that I said Smogon can't use their own rules. Check my latest response to Grass Type Trainer (above). Before posting this response, I checked each of my posts in this thread, and I've never said Smogon shouldn't or can't use rules they invented. I've said 'I don't like their rules' plenty of times. I've said 'their rules are so widely used that they pop up in non-Smogon play' even more. But, unless I missed just now when I was browsing, I never said they can't use their rules.

By the way - LOLcats, or the regular kind?
 
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@ Calcium: You didn't mention numbers or popularity, I did.
You said that they were justified in making bans because their community voted them in.
For the last time: I did not say that. In fact, you just contradicted yourself there. You said I didn't mention popularity, then you said I did mention voting, which kind of comes with popularity. And by "as the community chooses", I meant "as each individual person wants to use them for their own battles." Even if I didn't make that clear enough the first time, I've repeated already that I don't care about the popularity/voting of the rules, just that if certain people like them, those certain people can use them. Please, for the love of all that is just and righteous in the universe, for every tentacool in the ocean and every zubat in Dark Cave, stop saying that's what I said!
Sorry. What I should have typed was 'It seems to me as though you are implying they were justified in making bans because their community voted them in'; a statement of opinion, not of fact. Again, sorry.
That's cool (as long as you're not being sarcastic), not many can admit to a fault on the Internet. So yes, I should've worded my original post better because it sounded as of I was implying aboutthe voting system, but just to clarify for anyone, I wasn't.
Calcium said:
I know what you're saying, and I agree that the rules being popular doesn't make them right, but if Smogon like them why can't they use them?
Please, for the love of all that is just and righteous in the universe, for every tentacool in the ocean and every zubat in Dark Cave, stop saying... that I said Smogon can't use their own rules. Check my latest response to Grass Type Trainer (above). Before posting this response, I checked each of my posts in this thread, and I've never said Smogon shouldn't or can't use rules they invented. I've said 'I don't like their rules' plenty of times. I've said 'their rules are so widely used that they pop up in non-Smogon play' even more. But, unless I missed just now when I was browsing, I never said they can't use their rules.
This is the bit I'm getting at. Why can't people outside Smogon use smogn's rules if they like them? Unless you're talking about people feeling superior about using smog's rules, in which case I agree that they're annoying.
By the way - LOLcats, or the regular kind?
I've moved on to cat videos. Weird cat videos.
 
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Calcium: While I'm sarcastic approximately 70% of the time I really was being serious. (I usually italicize things to add emphasis for snarkiness.)
People outside Smogon can use their rules until they're blue in the face, but when they start telling other people they play with 'these are the rules' without mentioning that they're Smogon's, it spreads misinformation. I'm not sure if you read the updated first post in this thread, but I included an example of a few house rules from Monopoly ('Free Parking=$$' & 'You can't buy properties until you've passed Go') that are so common that lots of people believe they're real rules. Additionally, every time I go onto WiFi, it seems like all I encounter are Smogon's example version of whatever it is I'm fighting, which to me says that Smogon is a crutch for people who don't want to put the effort into making an original team. That and it seems like any time I go on WiFi or whatever with a team that involves Uber-tier Pokemon or the infamous 'Drizzle + Swift Swim' / "Sandstorm + Garchomp/Excadrill" combo, their connection mysteriously craps out (implying that they soft-reset or switched their game off).
Really, though, rabid Smogon-worshippers who try to convince everyone else that their way is better is an even bigger issue for me. I think that maybe 60% of my problem with Smogon comes from those types. Like I said to Grass Type Trainer, maybe it seems like there's more of them because of their very nature, I dunno.

Have you seen this set of videos?
 
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Calcium: While I'm sarcastic approximately 70% of the time I really was being serious. (I usually italicize things to add emphasis for snarkiness.)
People outside Smogon can use their rules until they're blue in the face, but when they start telling other people they play with 'these are the rules' without mentioning that they're Smogon's, it spreads misinformation. I'm not sure if you read the updated first post in this thread, but I included an example of a few house rules from Monopoly ('Free Parking=$$' & 'You can't buy properties until you've passed Go') that are so common that lots of people believe they're real rules. Additionally, every time I go onto WiFi, it seems like all I encounter are Smogon's example version of whatever it is I'm fighting, which to me says that Smogon is a crutch for people who don't want to put the effort into making an original team. That and it seems like any time I go on WiFi or whatever with a team that involves Uber-tier Pokemon or the infamous 'Drizzle + Swift Swim' / "Sandstorm + Garchomp/Excadrill" combo, their connection mysteriously craps out (implying that they soft-reset or switched their game off).
Really, though, rabid Smogon-worshippers who try to convince everyone else that their way is better is an even bigger issue for me. I think that maybe 60% of my problem with Smogon comes from those types. Like I said to Grass Type Trainer, maybe it seems like there's more of them because of their very nature, I dunno.

Have you seen this set of videos?
Smogon causes creativity, if certain bans weren't enforced, creativity is stifled on new levels.
 
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Please give an example, of how bans promote creativity. Unless you're using to the 'if not for bans, everyone would use the same Pokemon' argument, which just forces people to use the next-strongest Pokemon in place of the banned one, effectively using the same team with some substitutions.
And as far as said teams go, Smogon literally provides strategy guides for making them:
Guide to making a Rain team
Guide to making a Sun team
Guide to making a Volt-Turn team (I'd never even heard of this strategy before now.)
Guide to making a Trick Room team
Guide to using Arceus to the fullest (People need a guide for this??)
This kind of thing is what I mean about Smogon stifling creativity. A chimpanzee could follow their guides and win 80% of the time.
 

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This kind of thing is what I mean about Smogon stifling creativity. A chimpanzee could follow their guides and win 80% of the time.
I definitely see your point, but that's not really the case. Pokemon is a strategy and intelligence-based game. Only if you are capable of using the knowledge you possess to the Pokemon you have will you actually be able to win. I've defeated three Arceus with an Alakazam, simply because I played well.

However, you do raise the good point that (while it is not their intention) Smogon may stifle someone's creativity. However, you need to learn in order to win. Not all types and team-themes can be used by certain players. Everyone has a different approach.
 
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Please give an example, of how bans promote creativity. Unless you're using to the 'if not for bans, everyone would use the same Pokemon' argument, which just forces people to use the next-strongest Pokemon in place of the banned one, effectively using the same team with some substitutions.
And as far as said teams go, Smogon literally provides strategy guides for making them:
Guide to making a Rain team
Guide to making a Sun team
Guide to making a Volt-Turn team (I'd never even heard of this strategy before now.)
Guide to making a Trick Room team
Guide to using Arceus to the fullest (People need a guide for this??)
This kind of thing is what I mean about Smogon stifling creativity. A chimpanzee could follow their guides and win 80% of the time.
Not knowing what Volt-Turn is and complaining about explanations about Arceus really shows your inexperience. Those guides don't cause wins. They don't do anything compared to experience. That being said I'll go on the notion that you've only ever played Gen 4 competitively. Try playing in the Garchomp Metagame and tell me that it "had more creativity," than the generations that followed it.
 
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Please give an example, of how bans promote creativity. Unless you're using to the 'if not for bans, everyone would use the same Pokemon' argument, which just forces people to use the next-strongest Pokemon in place of the banned one, effectively using the same team with some substitutions.
And as far as said teams go, Smogon literally provides strategy guides for making them:
Guide to making a Rain team
Guide to making a Sun team
Guide to making a Volt-Turn team (I'd never even heard of this strategy before now.)
Guide to making a Trick Room team
Guide to using Arceus to the fullest (People need a guide for this??)
This kind of thing is what I mean about Smogon stifling creativity. A chimpanzee could follow their guides and win 80% of the time.
Not knowing what Volt-Turn is and complaining about explanations about Arceus really shows your inexperience. Those guides don't cause wins. They don't do anything compared to experience. That being said I'll go on the notion that you've only ever played Gen 4 competitively. Try playing in the Garchomp Metagame and tell me that it "had more creativity," than the generations that followed it.
Please give an example, of how bans promote creativity. Unless you're using to the 'if not for bans, everyone would use the same Pokemon' argument, which just forces people to use the next-strongest Pokemon in place of the banned one, effectively using the same team with some substitutions.
And as far as said teams go, Smogon literally provides strategy guides for making them:
Guide to making a Rain team
Guide to making a Sun team
Guide to making a Volt-Turn team (I'd never even heard of this strategy before now.)
Guide to making a Trick Room team
Guide to using Arceus to the fullest (People need a guide for this??)
This kind of thing is what I mean about Smogon stifling creativity. A chimpanzee could follow their guides and win 80% of the time.
Not knowing what Volt-Turn is and complaining about explanations about Arceus really shows your inexperience. Those guides don't cause wins. They don't do anything compared to experience. That being said I'll go on the notion that you've only ever played Gen 4 competitively. Try playing in the Garchomp Metagame and tell me that it "had more creativity," than the generations that followed it.
Oh, no, my 'inexperience' is showing. (How embarassing...) I used 'Volt Turn' as an example to show it's not something everyone's heard of - unless they read it on a site like Smogon. And using Arceus isn't rocket science. It's a Special Attacker, so raise it's Special Attack. Raise it's other stats and give it moves based on it's role in your team, then have it hold the appropriate Plate.
Granted, guides themselves don't guarantee victory, but 90% of the effort of team-building and strategy is removed when everything (what to use/what not to use/strategies/move sets/hold items/things that could potentially beat you (and how)/counters for things that could beat you), are provided for you.
And you didn't give an example of how bans promote creativity.
 
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Actually, Arceus's stats are all equal at 120; it isn't technically a special attacker, even if Judgement is a special attack and a few of the differently typed Arceus have (relatively) poor physical movepools.
Granted, but it's feels like a waste to use it on anything but SAtk....
Tsurugi said:
Then don't follow them. There's nothing saying that you HAVE to use them. That's just what they recommend because it's what's had the most success. And them telling you the team and strategy is useless if you don't know how to use it properly.
I don't use the guides. I used the guides as an example because they spell out how to use the presented team properly, which was an example of how having them nullifies the need for creativity. My Grandmother always used to say that if people don't have to think, they usually won't.
Because banning something means that people have to look for other options. Banning something means they can't rely on it all the time; they have to find new Pokémon to replace it and think of new strategies to go with it. There would be no reason to use any other Psychic-type attacker, if Mewtwo and Deoxys-N/A weren't banned.
Mewtwo and Deoxys' stats are outrageous (a cleverly-used Dark type should still be able to KO them, IMO,) but that example at least makes sense for the argument.
I still think that removing Pokemon from the list of options limits what can be used in the first place, thusly hindering team making. Tiers do this to an even greater extent. The only reason tiers have become 'necessary' (I'm using the term loosely) is because players who only use 'the best' Pokemon. There are 650 different Pokemon, and teams typically consist of six of them. Math isn't my strong suit AT ALL, so I don't know the formula to come up with the maximum number of possible combinations, but 6 x 650 = 3900, which is a LOT of possibilities. (That's not even touching every possible move combination within each set of six - that number probably breaches a million.) People who only use a single set of them because they're 'the best' Pokemon indicates either a lack of creativity or just plain laziness on their part. They've 'had the most success' because they were the made examples for something that everyone copied.

Maybe I'm unique in this aspect (I'm really starting to wonder...) but I get tired of using the same Pokemon all the time, even if I'm winning regularly with them. I used to use Alakazam as my principal Psychic type, then I switched to Gardevior, then to Espeon, then to Reuniclus, and I'm starting to get bored of him now, too, so I'll prolly change to something else. Each has relatively similar stats, and they're all the best in their own way. Additionally, each time I change one member, I usually end up changing two or three more for the sake of synergy.
 
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Actually, Arceus's stats are all equal at 120; it isn't technically a special attacker, even if Judgement is a special attack and a few of the differently typed Arceus have (relatively) poor physical movepools.
Granted, but it's feels like a waste to use it on anything but SAtk....
Tsurugi said:
Then don't follow them. There's nothing saying that you HAVE to use them. That's just what they recommend because it's what's had the most success. And them telling you the team and strategy is useless if you don't know how to use it properly.
I don't use the guides. I used the guides as an example because they spell out how to use the presented team properly, which was an example of how having them nullifies the need for creativity. My Grandmother always used to say that if people don't have to think, they usually won't.
Because banning something means that people have to look for other options. Banning something means they can't rely on it all the time; they have to find new Pokémon to replace it and think of new strategies to go with it. There would be no reason to use any other Psychic-type attacker, if Mewtwo and Deoxys-N/A weren't banned.
Mewtwo and Deoxys' stats are outrageous (a cleverly-used Dark type should still be able to KO them, IMO,) but that example at least makes sense for the argument.
I still think that removing Pokemon from the list of options limits what can be used in the first place, thusly hindering team making. Tiers do this to an even greater extent. The only reason tiers have become 'necessary' (I'm using the term loosely) is because players who only use 'the best' Pokemon. There are 650 different Pokemon, and teams typically consist of six of them. Math isn't my strong suit AT ALL, so I don't know the formula to come up with the maximum number of possible combinations, but 6 x 650 = 3900, which is a LOT of possibilities. (That's not even touching every possible move combination within each set of six - that number probably breaches a million.) People who only use a single set of them because they're 'the best' Pokemon indicates either a lack of creativity or just plain laziness on their part. They've 'had the most success' because they were the made examples for something that everyone copied.

Maybe I'm unique in this aspect (I'm really starting to wonder...) but I get tired of using the same Pokemon all the time, even if I'm winning regularly with them. I used to use Alakazam as my principal Psychic type, then I switched to Gardevior, then to Espeon, then to Reuniclus, and I'm starting to get bored of him now, too, so I'll prolly change to something else. Each has relatively similar stats, and they're all the best in their own way. Additionally, each time I change one member, I usually end up changing two or three more for the sake of synergy.
People can use what they wish to, but in order to win, they'll generally choose the best.
 
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For the most part, I've got to agree with the OP on this one. It seems to me that Smogon and their rules seem just like a religion to me. Its followers are free to use their rules, and other people like the OP and I can choose not to use them. The problem arises when people start doorknocking (not naming names here) to impose their rules on other people, which is exactly what I figured the OP was most pissed about.

As for reasons why I don't follow rules from sites like Smogon, I'll list several here, but they're mostly due to their bans, intended to introduce more variety in the metagame, ultimately only end up limiting strategy for other pokemons.
"No OHKO": Sure, you might have a few lucky sweeps, but I still fail to see why OHKO spam would be gamebreaking, considering they are as likely to hit as Thunder/Blizzard is of missing. They allow rarely seen pokemon such as Seaking, Articuno, Dewgong, and Kingler a somewhat reliable way to clear opposition. I'm of the opinion that all this overhype about OHKO's stems from people getting butthurt over that one asshole Walrein in Battle Frontier spamming OHKO's and always succeeding. Is Sturdy not seen in the current meta, despite the free focus sash effect addition?
"No Evasion Boosts": Yes, they are annoying. That doesn't exactly make them broken. It isn't as if they're only reserved for the high and mighty, either. In fact, considering every single TM-friendly pokemon has access to these, it gives some weaker pokemon a fighting chance. Sure, it's luck-based, but the whole argument of removing luck from the battle equation is preposterous. A good trainer should not only be skilled, but bring luck to his aid as well. As with the OHKO's, it isn't as if spamming these will bring constant victories anyway. Again, this seems indication of more butthurt by that one asshole Dusknoir in Battle Frontier. Oh yeah, did I mention that despite what some people think, OHKO's don't take accuracy/evasion changes into consideration?
"No Moody": Yet another argument against using any luck in the equation...the overly optimistic explanation posted on serebii's Smeargle page says it all. One is just as likely to get +2 Accuracy/-1 Speed as one is of getting +2 Evasion/-1 SpAtk...As with the above two arguments, unless you can deliberately manipulate the RNG on your DS/Simulator, you won't get constant wins from things like this. This ban is clearly aimed toward Smeargle, but it quashes opportunity of variety on Octillery/Glailie/Bibarel. Not sure what the ingame butthurt source is in this case...
"No SwiftSwim+Drizzle": Bye bye Armaldo/Floatzel/Gorebyss/Seaking...I wonder when people stopped using bulky water-types...it isn't as if those were specifically designed to counter swiftdrizzlers, anyway...

I could say some more, but I think I'll leave it at that. I reiterate that this is my OPINION, which you are free to disagree to, or comment upon. But if your comments seem scathing in any way, don't bother typing them.
 
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Except trying to bring luck on your side involes no skill at all. Just spamming Double Team means relying completely on luck and leaving out all skill whereas spamming an offensive move involves skill and a certain amount of luck besides the chance of a critical hit.

It takes no skill to spam Double Team.

When spamming an offensive move, you have to consider what your opponent will do. He might switch into a Pokemon who resists or is immune to the move you jus used. Therefore it becomes important to scout your Opponent to see what kinds of Pokemon he has or what movesets they may have depending on the rest of his team. All this while trying to keep your Pokemon/movesets hidden.

When spamming Double Team, it doesn't matter which Pokemon your Opponent has because if you get lucky and it misses, then you're already ahead despite using any skill.

Luck based moves are not banned because they factor in too much luck but because they remove all skill needed.
 
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Except trying to bring luck on your side involes no skill at all. Just spamming Double Team means relying completely on luck and leaving out all skill whereas spamming an offensive move involves skill and a certain amount of luck besides the chance of a critical hit.

It takes no skill to spam Double Team.

When spamming an offensive move, you have to consider what your opponent will do. He might switch into a Pokemon who resists or is immune to the move you jus used. Therefore it becomes important to scout your Opponent to see what kinds of Pokemon he has or what movesets they may have depending on the rest of his team. All this while trying to keep your Pokemon/movesets hidden.

When spamming Double Team, it doesn't matter which Pokemon your Opponent has because if you get lucky and it misses, then you're already ahead despite using any skill.

Luck based moves are not banned because they factor in too much luck but because they remove all skill needed.
Your argument on evasion makes sense. However, don't people use moves like Roar/Taunt for a reason? This reminds me of how absurd I found the banning of Wobbuffet (and WYNAUT), Incidentally, this is mentioned in japanese strategy wikis as follows: "単純なフルアタが主流な海外では禁止ポケとなっているのはとても有名な話。"(It is well known that in the foreign meta, where the mainstream strategy is to simply run 4 attacking moves, Wobbuffet is a banned pokemon.) I know that's over now, but just an example...
 
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Except trying to bring luck on your side involes no skill at all. Just spamming Double Team means relying completely on luck and leaving out all skill whereas spamming an offensive move involves skill and a certain amount of luck besides the chance of a critical hit.

It takes no skill to spam Double Team.

When spamming an offensive move, you have to consider what your opponent will do. He might switch into a Pokemon who resists or is immune to the move you jus used. Therefore it becomes important to scout your Opponent to see what kinds of Pokemon he has or what movesets they may have depending on the rest of his team. All this while trying to keep your Pokemon/movesets hidden.

When spamming Double Team, it doesn't matter which Pokemon your Opponent has because if you get lucky and it misses, then you're already ahead despite using any skill.

Luck based moves are not banned because they factor in too much luck but because they remove all skill needed.
Your argument on evasion makes sense. However, don't people use moves like Roar/Taunt for a reason? This reminds me of how absurd I found the banning of Wobbuffet (and WYNAUT), Incidentally, this is mentioned in japanese strategy wikis as follows: "単純なフルアタが主流な海外では禁止ポケとなっているのはとても有名な話。"(It is well known that in the foreign meta, where the mainstream strategy is to simply run 4 attacking moves, Wobbuffet is a banned pokemon.) I know that's over now, but just an example...
Well, both Wobbuffet and Wynaut were banned in Gen III because if both you and your opponent sent out a Wobbuffet with Leftovers, the battle would literally never end because all damage caused by Struggle would still be healed by Leftovers and Opponents wouldn't be able to switch out either.
In Gen IV however, if both Pokemon have Shadow Tag, they can switch out.


I don't think either of them were even tested in Gen IV and was banned on principle. Don't take my word for it though. But it might be true because Wobbuffet is no longer banned. The power creep was rather high this gen but I don't think that it would be so high that a defensive Pokemon that was deemed broken would relegated that easily.
 
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