Smogon (and others') banning of Pokemon; who are they to decide??

Is Evasion truly broken, or are there counters to it that can be used?

  • Yes! Double Team / Minimize is evil, and should be banned forever!

    Votes: 3 21.4%
  • No! There are are 15 moves that counter it (+5 more, depending) and items/abilities, too!

    Votes: 11 78.6%

  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2011
Messages
109
Reaction score
0
Math isn't my strong suit AT ALL, so I don't know the formula to come up with the maximum number of possible combinations, but 6 x 650 = 3900, which is a LOT of possibilities.
Your math it's wrong, with species clause the number of possible combination its 649*648*647*646*645*644 = 73 013 317 740 000 000; and without species clause its (649)^6 = 74 725 388 360 000 000

=)
 
70% Critical Hit Rate
Joined
Apr 26, 2012
Messages
293
Reaction score
0
Math isn't my strong suit AT ALL, so I don't know the formula to come up with the maximum number of possible combinations, but 6 x 650 = 3900, which is a LOT of possibilities.
Your math it's wrong, with species clause the number of possible combination its 649*648*647*646*645*644 = 73 013 317 740 000 000; and without species clause its (649)^6 = 74 725 388 360 000 000

=)
I figured it was wrong, thanks. I hate math...

@ RangerJackWalker:Eviolite alone makes many of those non-evolved Pokemon awesome - sometimes even better than their evolved forms.
 
Gutes deutsches Bier
Joined
Feb 7, 2009
Messages
15,345
Reaction score
3
"Why don't you just play Ubers?"
"It's logical for them to ban stuff."
"If you don't like it, find other people to play with."


I get it, okay? You all like Smogon, or whatever. I don't. If my opinion is offensive to you somehow, I'm sorry. Argumentum ad populum does not make Smogon or its rabid followers right. The creation of rules that don't exist just complicates things, and when those rules become so prolific that they start popping up outside of their gaming community - or when its members start acting like they're better than others because they follow special rules - it bothers me.
I was just making a suggestion. You have a problem with banned pokemon, ubers is a tier from which no pokemon are banned. What's the problem here?
 
All hail me!
Joined
May 7, 2011
Messages
1,794
Reaction score
10
"Why don't you just play Ubers?"
"It's logical for them to ban stuff."
"If you don't like it, find other people to play with."


I get it, okay? You all like Smogon, or whatever. I don't. If my opinion is offensive to you somehow, I'm sorry. Argumentum ad populum does not make Smogon or its rabid followers right. The creation of rules that don't exist just complicates things, and when those rules become so prolific that they start popping up outside of their gaming community - or when its members start acting like they're better than others because they follow special rules - it bothers me.
I was just making a suggestion. You have a problem with banned pokemon, ubers is a tier from which no pokemon are banned. What's the problem here?
I think the problem is "I want to complain.I want to complain.I want to complain.I want to complain.I want to complain.I want to complain.I want to complain.I want to complain.I want to complain.I want to complain.I want to complain.I want to complain."
 
70% Critical Hit Rate
Joined
Apr 26, 2012
Messages
293
Reaction score
0
@ Pokemon Yellow - The reason I got upset over your response was that you were about the 10th person to say that. It wasn't aimed at you specifically. Yes, I know nothing's banned in Ubers, but that really isn't the point I'm trying to make in this thread.

@ LordClowncrete - Coming from a guy who started a blog to complain about this thread, your comment is pretty funny.
 
Prayers to Oak Creek
Joined
Aug 28, 2009
Messages
5,241
Reaction score
1
I've said it for the last time. I will give out infractions if we keep on going back to questions of character. Stay on topic.
 
All hail me!
Joined
May 7, 2011
Messages
1,794
Reaction score
10
For the most part, I've got to agree with the OP on this one. It seems to me that Smogon and their rules seem just like a religion to me. Its followers are free to use their rules, and other people like the OP and I can choose not to use them. The problem arises when people start doorknocking (not naming names here) to impose their rules on other people, which is exactly what I figured the OP was most pissed about.
Frankly, one (or by extension 10) people donot make a community. Smogon has atleast 30,000 members. Hey, 10 people of smogon are being rude. So what do we do? We start assuming that every smogonite is rude. It is pretty similar to me meeting a few people of any religion or nationality and saying that all of them are bad because I have a negative impression of that particular person.

As for "they impose rules", I wrote an entire blog about it. If you are battling, I think it is responsibility of both battlers to clarify the rules. Someone drew a comparision about football(soccer). If you invite a group of people to play football and start handling the ball, your opponent is going to be annoyed. Period. Because you didn't clarify that you donot play by popular rules. Again there are rude people who will call you a fool for not playing by smogon tiers but as I stated, they donot make the entire community. I can guarantee that the OP has never been a part of smogon nor met the people of smogon(except for the members here) and is basing his entire opinions on a couple of incidents. That is what leads to my previous post.

"No OHKO": Sure, you might have a few lucky sweeps, but I still fail to see why OHKO spam would be gamebreaking, considering they are as likely to hit as Thunder/Blizzard is of missing. They allow rarely seen pokemon such as Seaking, Articuno, Dewgong, and Kingler a somewhat reliable way to clear opposition. I'm of the opinion that all this overhype about OHKO's stems from people getting butthurt over that one asshole Walrein in Battle Frontier spamming OHKO's and always succeeding. Is Sturdy not seen in the current meta, despite the free focus sash effect addition?
No. Let me explain what competitive battling is. It is battling where both players aim for winning and where the winner is decided by skills and not luck or throw of dice generally. How do ohko moves even fit here? A great example would be nidoking with fissure/3 attack moves. Generally nidoking is completely walled by chansey. But hey you use fissure and chansey and then? The game is decided by the roll of a dice. If you get 2/6 (i.e 33%~), you win. Also, 30% happens a lot more than people thinks it does. The chances of getting a ohko to work is the same as getting lava plume or scald to cause a burn. If you have played, I am sure you will know how often these 2 events occur.

So, what am I saying? Simply, ohko moves surrender the game to the RNG/luck. It doesn't fit into the definition of competitive battling I gave you.

"No Evasion Boosts": Yes, they are annoying. That doesn't exactly make them broken. It isn't as if they're only reserved for the high and mighty, either. In fact, considering every single TM-friendly pokemon has access to these, it gives some weaker pokemon a fighting chance. Sure, it's luck-based, but the whole argument of removing luck from the battle equation is preposterous. A good trainer should not only be skilled, but bring luck to his aid as well. As with the OHKO's, it isn't as if spamming these will bring constant victories anyway. Again, this seems indication of more butthurt by that one asshole Dusknoir in Battle Frontier. Oh yeah, did I mention that despite what some people think, OHKO's don't take accuracy/evasion changes into consideration?
The explanation of this is too long. There was a big (and of hilarious) discussion regarding it here, so I'll point you there. It sums up why evasion is completely broken. Also, evasion was indeed tested once, IIRC. It was found to be broken.

"No Moody": Yet another argument against using any luck in the equation...the overly optimistic explanation posted on serebii's Smeargle page says it all. One is just as likely to get +2 Accuracy/-1 Speed as one is of getting +2 Evasion/-1 SpAtk...As with the above two arguments, unless you can deliberately manipulate the RNG on your DS/Simulator, you won't get constant wins from things like this. This ban is clearly aimed toward Smeargle, but it quashes opportunity of variety on Octillery/Glailie/Bibarel. Not sure what the ingame butthurt source is in this case...
Huh, again I will point to an example rather than explain. Check out my second battle with Iteru here. It is Challenge cup, yes and thats why I have moody bidoof. There is nothing stopping moody Pokemon from abusing substitiute + protect and get the required boosts. I remember a time watching battles on PO when moody was allowed and I have seen bidoof and Bibarel defeating "counters" like Zekrom and Arceus easily in Ubers. Again moody also infringes on evasion clause. I find the ban justified.

"No SwiftSwim+Drizzle": Bye bye Armaldo/Floatzel/Gorebyss/Seaking...I wonder when people stopped using bulky water-types...it isn't as if those were specifically designed to counter swiftdrizzlers, anyway...
Pokemon like swift-swim Kingdra, Ludicolo have no counters in the rain. Even ferrothorn can be taken down with a well timed switch to magnezone. Kingdra + Magnezone is still used to this day to counter rain teams. Rather than banning an individual, non broken Pokemon(Kingdra who isnt broken without rain) or banning an ability(swift swim) which would end up banning tonnes of Pokemon, they took this middle step.

Why bulky water types are not seen? Because there are tonnes of Pokemon who can smash bulky water types to pieces. Ferrothorn, Celebi, Rotom-W and Jellicent can easily 6-0 teams filled with bulky water types. Even chlorophyll sweepers can run amok among bulky water types.

@ LordClowncrete - Coming from a guy who started a blog to complain about this thread, your comment is pretty funny.
Yay, I knew my blogs were popular.:-D
 
Horu Horu no Mi true user
Joined
May 21, 2012
Messages
29
Reaction score
0
I'll throw my humble opinion in this big topic.
To begin with, I'm with Stratago in many ways, but. But.
The point is that if you (and me) don't like Smogon rules, arguing wether they are justified or not is far useless.
I don't like people (not just smogoners) who consider Smogon rules OFFICIAL rules. They drive me MAD. But who am I to tell someone "hey, this isn't Smogon, why using Smogon rules?" just don't call them "official", please. Official rules are those of the game: Flat Battle and so on. VGC can be considered official, too. The point is that Smogon guys don't aim for a "game-like" Meta, they want a more-skill oriented. This is a reasonable choice I don't agree with, that's the point. Or, to an extent, I agree with if we play on PO in a dedicated meta. I can't figure why I couldn't use Excadrill or Double Team in-game, and with the same way of reasoning I can't see why should be allowed some Deoxys forms. But this is a problem of mine.
If Smogon rules are widely accepted this is not because they are the bad guys who force us to do it: people like these rules. At the point that someone (wrongly) considers them official. Annoying.
IMHO Smogon rules are TOO far to the original games to like me but, hey. Everyone plays how he wants. If you want to ban Blissey because it has too HP and there are some people who agree with you, don't use Blissey with them. If you want to run a Smogon OU challenge with someone, do it. What disappoints me is that nowadays it seems like people who run STANDARD metagame teams are often seen as aliens. It doesn't make sense at all.
There are tons of things which I hate about this "competitive" metagame. This is IMHO, however, and call Smogon a "a collective bunch of quacks" doesn't help at all, you know. I can just assume you used these tones because when you tell something like "Double Team isn't too much overpowered IMHO" there are people who, instead of a sane argument, answer like "you dumbass stay away from Pokémon if you think so because DT is Uber and bla bla bla". Just keep ignoring these rules and have fun with original Pokémon games. :)

To stay in the "sane argument" line, I'll explain why I don't like Smogon rules with the assumption that there is a big IMHO in every point.

-Double Team. Yeah, I know. Almost everyone can learn DT. But this is a move which exists and, like every other move, i can't see why don't use it. If there are ways to go around it, you should allow it. And there are. Aerial Ace is a bad move. Ok. But it is so bad because people run Evasion Clause. If they didn't, a 60 base power move which can counter a common move wouldn't be so useless. A move shouldn't be considered "weak" "bad" or "useless" just because it is useless when it comes an external Clause. Know what? They invented those moves for this exact purpose. Unaware? Haze? Taunt? Simply 100% Accuracy offensive moves which don't turn 0% acc immediately and can kill? To DT you have to waste turns. And unless you are a bulky one, you would think twice running a DT Pikachu and waste turns instead of ATTAAAACK!!! But, at the same time, weaker Pokémon get a chance of being used just trying to bring luck to their side. And luck is part of Pokémon.
-Drizzle + Swift Swim. Ok, I hate it. I DO hate it. So? This isn't a good reason to ban it. Just chance weather, run useful counters who can deal with a Rain Team, revenge kill, try putting in some Pokémon who work well in rain as well. Dunno. You can get around this. Yep, it is an overpowered and cheap strategy, but this is metagame. In Yu-Gi-Oh! or Magic: The Gathering there are always over used decks and the skills come when you assume this and prepare yourself an adeguate counter or a dedicated anti-meta deck.
-Hax Items: same of Double Team.
-OHKO moves: again, they exist. 30% isn't too much to get banned, IMHO, and not too low to be useless. They are there to do their job: kill sometimes something. With luck. No one serious would rely upon those, so their useness is situational. But, why not?, allowed. Considering their use in the same meta of DT and they get even less reliable.
-Pokémon bans: Game Freak itself decided what is Uber and what not; There are Banned Pokémon, the event ones (Mew, Celebi, Arceus...), Special Pokémon (the strongest in-game legendaries, Mewtwo, Lugia, Dialga, Zekrom...) and the others. In a tournament you should decide which category can be allowed and which not, just as you do with ubers, OU, UU and so on. There's nothing wrong with this. Sure, there are some Pokémon which would be more used than others. As always, lol.
Without counting the usual points: why DT and not Seren Grace? Why OHKO and not Critical Hits (which, for example, literary RUIN Curse or BP strategies and are just as luck based as some banned stuff)? And what about Will O'Wisp and its unreliable Accuracy?

Not about bans but one more thing: I don't like these rare mons which come up from everywhere just because now people can RNG or Pokégen. Yeah, you can say that "the game itself can do the same" but don't try fooling me: I have more opportunities to win the national lottery than finding a roaming and semi-flawless Thundurus with Hidden Power Ice 70. Really. And where on earth did you find that Wish Blissey with right Nature and right IVs? Ridiculous. So I'd rather ban these jokes than, huh, a Blaziken everybody can breed.

I DO get the point in every single Smogon decision: no DT to avoid luck, no SS+Dr to avoid overpower, non-legendary Ubers to avoid Mence everywhere and so on... but, again, I prefer working around problems instead of banning them. This is a choice. Yours is a choice. The point is that there isn't a good or a bad choice but, please, don't consider yours (everyone, from both sides) the rightest.

EDIT: As for now they released only male DW, Torchics, so no Blaziken breed. My bad... XD
 
Last edited:
New Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2007
Messages
210
Reaction score
0
Perhaps I should have made my statements more clear, on the fact that they are just the opinions of a guy who usually prefers to battle in the japanese metagame. I was just trying to point out how interesting the differences in views are from that of the overseas meta.

Frankly, one (or by extension 10) people donot make a community. Smogon has atleast 30,000 members. Hey, 10 people of smogon are being rude. So what do we do? We start assuming that every smogonite is rude. It is pretty similar to me meeting a few people of any religion or nationality and saying that all of them are bad because I have a negative impression of that particular person.
I wasn't making such an assumption...>_<

As for "they impose rules", I wrote an entire blog about it. If you are battling, I think it is responsibility of both battlers to clarify the rules. Someone drew a comparision about football(soccer). If you invite a group of people to play football and start handling the ball, your opponent is going to be annoyed. Period. Because you didn't clarify that you donot play by popular rules. Again there are rude people who will call you a fool for not playing by smogon tiers but as I stated, they donot make the entire community.
This goes without saying...

No. Let me explain what competitive battling is. It is battling where both players aim for winning and where the winner is decided by skills and not luck or throw of dice generally. How do ohko moves even fit here? A great example would be nidoking with fissure/3 attack moves. Generally nidoking is completely walled by chansey. But hey you use fissure and chansey and then? The game is decided by the roll of a dice. If you get 2/6 (i.e 33%~), you win. Also, 30% happens a lot more than people thinks it does. The chances of getting a ohko to work is the same as getting lava plume or scald to cause a burn. If you have played, I am sure you will know how often these 2 events occur.

So, what am I saying? Simply, ohko moves surrender the game to the RNG/luck. It doesn't fit into the definition of competitive battling I gave you.
Again, this comes from a difference in view. Quite apart from me still not getting how "Rivalry Nidoking running Horn Drill to deal with Chansey" is any different from "Nidoking running Thunderbolt to deal with Gyarados", yes, I have tried using Horn Drill Seaking. It's never really had any real success. Quoted from a popular japanese strategy wiki on Nidoking's page: "つのドリル:どうしようもない相手に対する最後の手段、耐久型のポケモンを無理やり
突破するのに使う。持っているとノーガードカイリキーに有利。"(Horn Drill: A last resort move, can be used to forcibly get rid of walls. Handy against No Guard Machamp.) I'm not sure if the foreigners have some magical powers to make their OHKO's always hit or something, but it isn't like OHKO's are run on everything possible, anyway. It isn't as if some fool running a Rest/SleepTalk/SheerCold/Fissure Lapras has been topping national competitions, right?

As mentioned before, Sturdy is your friend.

The explanation of this is too long. There was a big (and of hilarious) discussion regarding it here, so I'll point you there. It sums up why evasion is completely broken. Also, evasion was indeed tested once, IIRC. It was found to be broken.
Dismissing the fact that a single test/battle for a strategy that, as you would put it, "is surrendered to RNG", doesn't seem sufficient to prove its supposed brokenness, this again astounds me that you overseas players have this magical ability to make these luck-based ploys actually constantly reliable...I don't recall seeing any doubleteam-passing Ninjasks or minimizing starmies topping championships...the argument would have made sense back in gen I, where one use would make you 50% evade, but now...?

Taunt fixes most of my problems, in any case. Also not sure why foreigners regard Aerial Ace as a trash move when its main purpose is to be pinpoint counters against the likes of Breloom/Heracross/Virizion...

Huh, again I will point to an example rather than explain. Check out my second battle with Iteru here. It is Challenge cup, yes and thats why I have moody bidoof. There is nothing stopping moody Pokemon from abusing substitiute + protect and get the required boosts. I remember a time watching battles on PO when moody was allowed and I have seen bidoof and Bibarel defeating "counters" like Zekrom and Arceus easily in Ubers. Again moody also infringes on evasion clause. I find the ban justified.
Again, particular instances don't say anything about the actual likelihood of an event. Seriously, if I had the luck necessary to make such luck-based moves so constantly to my favor, I would use it for things other than on a children's videogame...I dare someone to top a championship with a Bidoof. It'd be hillarious. Assuming one didn't meet anything with Taunt on the way.

Pokemon like swift-swim Kingdra, Ludicolo have no counters in the rain. Even ferrothorn can be taken down with a well timed switch to magnezone. Kingdra + Magnezone is still used to this day to counter rain teams. Rather than banning an individual, non broken Pokemon(Kingdra who isnt broken without rain) or banning an ability(swift swim) which would end up banning tonnes of Pokemon, they took this middle step.
Scarfed dragons?
Shedinja?
Abomasnow?
Toxicroak?

Why bulky water types are not seen? Because there are tonnes of Pokemon who can smash bulky water types to pieces. Ferrothorn, Celebi, Rotom-W and Jellicent can easily 6-0 teams filled with bulky water types. Even chlorophyll sweepers can run amok among bulky water types.
Last time I checked, Rotom-W and Jellicent were bulky water types...and it doesn't seem too difficult to win against people who fill their teams with similar stuff...

I'll add that if each ban was made after the particular strategy was actually abused, as opposed to pure speculation, then my arguments don't really apply in that meta. It could just be that I lack the battle experience necessary to make fair judgments. It could also be that having seen the Yugioh card game metagame, where Konami's default response to anything somewhat powerful that wasn't released in the last year is to ban it, it just seems quite absurd that Pokemon players would put such restrictions on themselves.
 
Last edited:
Horu Horu no Mi true user
Joined
May 21, 2012
Messages
29
Reaction score
0
>semi-flawless Thundurus with Hidden Power Ice 70
>Wish Blissey with right Nature and right IVs
> would rather ban these
Smogon's tiers are all based on online simulators where you generate your teams, that's how they get flawless ID'd Bold Wish-Bliss. Smogon doesn't really care if the chances of getting it in the actual game are borderline impossible, all they care is that it is possible.
I know, and that's again the reason why IMHO those rules are not compatible with real games. PO and real game are different worlds. As I stated, I don't have any real problem with people using Smogon rules on PO. But too much people follows these rules outside of PO thus making the metagame insanely full of Pokémon which could surely exist like the ones i told before but... if you ACTUALLY use them against me trying to tell me that you were just lucky... you are insulting my intelligence.
I really HOPE Game Freak is gonna fix this gap between normal breeders (like me) and RNGers/Hackers, f.e. making Wish become an Happiny Egg Move or by improving Synching mechanics to force desired IVs/Hidden Power in roaming and stationary mons. I REALLY welcomed the IV Breeding in HGSS.
 
Prayers to Oak Creek
Joined
Aug 28, 2009
Messages
5,241
Reaction score
1
Pokemon like swift-swim Kingdra, Ludicolo have no counters in the rain. Even ferrothorn can be taken down with a well timed switch to magnezone. Kingdra + Magnezone is still used to this day to counter rain teams. Rather than banning an individual, non broken Pokemon(Kingdra who isnt broken without rain) or banning an ability(swift swim) which would end up banning tonnes of Pokemon, they took this middle step.
Scarfed dragons?
Shedinja?
Abomasnow?
Toxicroak?
Quick thing, Kingdra still beats Scarfed Dragons in Rain, Shedinja is beaten by entry which very commonly go up. Abomasnow is frail on all accounts and Kingdra can remove it. Toxicroak can't take any sort of hit.
 
70% Critical Hit Rate
Joined
Apr 26, 2012
Messages
293
Reaction score
0
I just read found yet another thread where the OP asked for team advice and his responses were essentially 'Dude, this team sux, u need 2 go read the basics on Smogon'. The team in question was referred to as an 'in-game team to used for WiFi' and then was picked apart essentially for not being the ideal, engineered versions of the Pokemon.
If not for all the power-gamers out there, anyone could play any team without them having to be clones of whatever Smogon prescribes, with perfect stats, natures, IVs and whatever. In spite of what I've been told, there's no such thing as a 'Legit Hack'. Either (A) Smogon members have unlocked the mystery breeding to get shinies with perfect IVs in every stat (or at least the ones that get them the Hidden Power type they want), with the egg moves and natures that they want, or (B) they're cheating by using PokeSav or whatever.
Another thing that bugs me is when people act mean, then seem to think it's okay if they say 'I'm just being honest...', as if it gives them immunity.

EDIT:
I found a funny video that pretty much sums up the kind of Smogonners that I can't stand. (I added this to my first post, as well.)
 
Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
772
Reaction score
0
I suspect that was my post you are talking about. You should have read on. I picked that team apart based on the post itself. If it was my post then you need to read it properly. What I said was that I wasn't an experienced competitive battler and have never had a battle in my life. But the team was awful because the OP didnt give us any ideas of what he has planned for the team. He didnt know what EVs were, he didn't know why an Impish nature on a Gengar is worse than a neutral nature and he used moves like Dig on a Jolteon - even my wife knows that this is a terrible choice.

I'm not a Smogoner at all, but I appreciate common sense. Read that thread again and see why the OP was terrible. I'm just being honest but I think you have lost sight of your original point.
 
Horu Horu no Mi true user
Joined
May 21, 2012
Messages
29
Reaction score
0
I found a funny video that pretty much sums up the kind of Smogonners that I can't stand. (I added this to my first post, as well.)
While I consider Smogonners who think they are God on Earth should be erased, I think the same about some of the comments under the video above.
I mean something like "Fuck Smogon and their rules" doesn't help at all. And, again, I'm with you with the whole "I don't like Smogon rules" thing but I think arguing about it is pretty useless. They are smart people who decided what they like and what they consider overpowered. Wether this is wrong or right is an endless question.We think japanese, they think smogonner. No one is right, no one is wrong. Just don't play with them and if you see a post like "You are a noob because you aren't following Smogon standard" in a team rating topic tell what you think about THAT post and give your own opinion about the team (I'm not talking about this specific case above which I don't know).
 
70% Critical Hit Rate
Joined
Apr 26, 2012
Messages
293
Reaction score
0
I found a funny video that pretty much sums up the kind of Smogonners that I can't stand. (I added this to my first post, as well.)
While I consider Smogonners who think they are God on Earth should be erased, I think the same about some of the comments under the video above.
I mean something like "Fuck Smogon and their rules" doesn't help at all. And, again, I'm with you with the whole "I don't like Smogon rules" thing but I think arguing about it is pretty useless. They are smart people who decided what they like and what they consider overpowered. Wether this is wrong or right is an endless question.We think japanese, they think smogonner. No one is right, no one is wrong. Just don't play with them and if you see a post like "You are a noob because you aren't following Smogon standard" in a team rating topic tell what you think about THAT post and give your own opinion about the team (I'm not talking about this specific case above which I don't know).
That's good advice, overall. I think the reason it gets me so upset when I see people do it is because it almost feels like bullying, which I can't stand. Also their 'Ban Everything Different' approach feels like media censorship. Like I said, there are so damn many of those 'winning-is-everything' power-gamer types out there that if you don't use Smogon's rules and example Pokemon you may as well not even play.
 
70% Critical Hit Rate
Joined
Apr 26, 2012
Messages
293
Reaction score
0
'Legit Hack'
Technically, what those people are referring to are "legal" hacks that don't have anything that is impossible in-game. Whether that's acceptable depends on the player.
I know what they're referring to, I meant in the literal sense. The words 'legit' and 'hack' contradict one another.
Stratago said:
Tsurugi said:
Smogon members have unlocked the mystery breeding to get shinies with perfect IVs in every stat
Yes.
So they figured out the math - the odds are 1:59916, minimum. If anything, that just supports my idea of cheating, since it seems as though every Pokemon encountered on WiFi or whatever has perfect IVs in each stat.
Stratago said:
Tsurugi said:
cheating by using PokeSav or whatever.
Again, they play using an on-line generator like Pokémon Online. Smogon has nothing to do with the actual cartridge game, in all technicality.
I know they use simulators, that way they can spawn super-pokes based on the concept that it's 'possible'. (This kinda ties in to what I said before about IVs.) But if Smogon is supposed to only be a thing for sims, then why do they try to govern cartridge gaming, too? (To clarify, by 'they', I mean the kind of jerks I've talked about so many times.)
Stratago said:
Tsurugi said:
I think the reason it gets me so upset when I see people do it is because it almost feels like bullying, which I can't stand. Also their 'Ban Everything Different' approach feels like media censorship. Like I said, there are so damn many of those 'winning-is-everything' power-gamer types out there that if you don't use Smogon's rules and example Pokemon you may as well not even play.
Those people aren't the majority. There is middle ground between Smogon-hater and fun-hating ultra-competitive fanatic. People don't want to ban everything different, they want to make it more balanced by banning everything overpowered and telling you why you shouldn't use things that are too underpowered. Just because a few people are overly rude with how they express their opinion, doesn't mean you should equate them with bullies.
I know that those type of Smogonners aren't the majority - they're just the loudest, most opinionated kind, and as such they represent the whole of the group in a negative way since they seem to think you're some kind of pariah if you don't follow Smogon's rules.
By banning things that factor in luck and moves like Double Team, it forces tiers to be necessary by unbalancing the competition to a degree where a Pokemon that's 'too underpowered' will get smashed on by a 'strong' one.
I'm only equating the ones who act like bullies as such, and I also reiterate that saying 'I'm just being honest' does not grant a person free reign to act like one.
 
Last edited:
Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
772
Reaction score
0
Saying I'm just being honest doesn't mean the previous or subsequent comment is meant to sound like its' coming from a bully. You have taken that comment massively out of proportion within the entire paragraph. But if you don't read the entire comment, you are free to take it how you like but it was backed up by other comments and no one has spoken up in massive disagreement.

Honesty is a good thing sometimes. Overreaction is the bane of this section sometimes.
 
Not a Power Ranger
Joined
Oct 24, 2008
Messages
4,562
Reaction score
12
By banning things that factor in luck and moves like Double Team, it forces tiers to be necessary by unbalancing the competition to a degree where a Pokemon that's 'too underpowered' will get smashed on by a 'strong' one.
I'll say this again, Smogon does not ban luck based moves because they factor in too much luck but because tey take out all player skill. It doesn't take skill to spam double team but you have to think twice before using any offensive move or a main stat(ie the main 5 stats) boosting move. The high power low accuracy moves are also luck based moves as are critical hits but they aren't banned because they still need player skill.

Remember, the chance of missing Focus Blast is the same as the chance of a OHKO move hitting. But using a OHKO move means you've left the whole game to chance. You're gonna win or you're gonna lose and neither your skill or your opponents's skill is gonna get in the way.
 
Last edited:
New Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2007
Messages
210
Reaction score
0
I wonder why both sides of the argument can't get it in their heads that this is just a matter of difference in opinion, which no amount of pointless bickering is going to solve. Battle communities can have their own house rules, and individuals can think that those "house rules" are bullshit and not follow them.

As an added note, here's a video of the Japanese Nintendo Cup 2000 Championship Round:
ニンテンドウカップ2000 全国決勝 - YouTube
It's in Japanese (obviously), but the battle basically starts off with Scizor Baton Passing Swords Dance to a DoubleEdge Tauros, which decimates the opposition, until a lone Heracross remained. Heracross responds to DoubleEdge with Endure. Tauros uses a second DoubleEdge, to which Heracross's Focus Band activated, leaving Heracross free to use Reversal to win the match. Over in Japan, where we don't ban things left right and center, the battle is regarded as one of the most epic Pokemon battles in history. It seems to me that someone under the smogon banhammer would fail to appreciate such an epic battle, saying something along the lines of "Oh Heracross surviving the second DoubleEdge didn't involve skill, what a dumb battle".

Regardless of the reason why Evasion Clause exists, the important thing is that it DOES exist, which I believe does lead to Stratago's scenario of tiers being forced into necessity.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top