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Smogon (and others') banning of Pokemon; who are they to decide??

Is Evasion truly broken, or are there counters to it that can be used?

  • Yes! Double Team / Minimize is evil, and should be banned forever!

    Votes: 3 21.4%
  • No! There are are 15 moves that counter it (+5 more, depending) and items/abilities, too!

    Votes: 11 78.6%

  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .
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Seriously, I'm a guy.
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To me, it doesn't matter what they ban or why they ban it. Their rules only matter if you choose to use them. Official Pokemon events don't use their rules, nor does the standard Wi-Fi meta. So, there's really no need to rage about it. Just don't play their meta. No one's forcing you to do so.
 
Not a Power Ranger
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As an added note, here's a video of the Japanese Nintendo Cup 2000 Championship Round:
ニンテンドウカップ2000 全国決勝 - YouTube
It's in Japanese (obviously), but the battle basically starts off with Scizor Baton Passing Swords Dance to a DoubleEdge Tauros, which decimates the opposition, until a lone Heracross remained. Heracross responds to DoubleEdge with Endure. Tauros uses a second DoubleEdge, to which Heracross's Focus Band activated, leaving Heracross free to use Reversal to win the match. Over in Japan, where we don't ban things left right and center, the battle is regarded as one of the most epic Pokemon battles in history. It seems to me that someone under the smogon banhammer would fail to appreciate such an epic battle, saying something along the lines of "Oh Heracross surviving the second DoubleEdge didn't involve skill, what a dumb battle".
Neither of those things are banned. Unless my info is outdated and endure and Focus Sash are banned. So yeah, no one is going to say that match was dumb.

I'm not fond of how you say "we in Japan don't ban things right left and center implying" and "It seems to me..." implying that you don't have a full understanding of how smogon works (by saying that they always ban stuff) and lack of research on your part (due to your choice of the words 'seems to me')

Tiers aren't necessary. Their purpose is to provide maximum munber of pokemon a fair playing field. If there were no tiers and everyone was allowed to use whatever Pokemon they wanted, then you would never see Pokemon outside of the uber legendaries and the top OU pokemon ever being used. Lower tiers mean inferior Pokemon can compete without the fear of being crushed by the more obviously superior ones.

The OP's problem with people making Smogon rules seeem 'official' and forcing them on others is neither Smogon's fault nor their problem. Smogon themselves have never forced their rules on anyone. People follow them because they work so well. Your unfortunate experience with some people should not colour your opnion of smogon as a whole otherwise I also can do the same and say all Gen I fans are nostalgia-blinded idiots because they are the vocal minority.

What would have them do? Shut down their site and stop doing the things they love? Thats awfully selfish.
 
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As an added note, here's a video of the Japanese Nintendo Cup 2000 Championship Round:
ニンテンドウカップ2000 全国決勝 - YouTube
It's in Japanese (obviously), but the battle basically starts off with Scizor Baton Passing Swords Dance to a DoubleEdge Tauros, which decimates the opposition, until a lone Heracross remained. Heracross responds to DoubleEdge with Endure. Tauros uses a second DoubleEdge, to which Heracross's Focus Band activated, leaving Heracross free to use Reversal to win the match. Over in Japan, where we don't ban things left right and center, the battle is regarded as one of the most epic Pokemon battles in history. It seems to me that someone under the smogon banhammer would fail to appreciate such an epic battle, saying something along the lines of "Oh Heracross surviving the second DoubleEdge didn't involve skill, what a dumb battle".
Neither of those things are banned. Unless my info is outdated and endure and Focus Sash are banned. So yeah, no one is going to say that match was dumb.

I'm not fond of how you say "we in Japan don't ban things right left and center implying" and "It seems to me..." implying that you don't have a full understanding of how smogon works (by saying that they always ban stuff) and lack of research on your part (due to your choice of the words 'seems to me')

Tiers aren't necessary. Their purpose is to provide maximum munber of pokemon a fair playing field. If there were no tiers and everyone was allowed to use whatever Pokemon they wanted, then you would never see Pokemon outside of the uber legendaries and the top OU pokemon ever being used. Lower tiers mean inferior Pokemon can compete without the fear of being crushed by the more obviously superior ones.

The OP's problem with people making Smogon rules seeem 'official' and forcing them on others is neither Smogon's fault nor their problem. Smogon themselves have never forced their rules on anyone. People follow them because they work so well. Your unfortunate experience with some people should not colour your opnion of smogon as a whole otherwise I also can do the same and say all Gen I fans are nostalgia-blinded idiots because they are the vocal minority.

What would have them do? Shut down their site and stop doing the things they love? Thats awfully selfish.
The video was mainly important that the Heracross won the match due to surviving the second Doubledge by luck, but I digress.

You're right; I don't exactly know how Smogon works, nor am I really willing to try it with all the rules which I already gave my reasons as to why I think they are unnecessary. Perhaps I didn't make it clear that this is just MY opinion that only applies to ME. I'll just do as I want, and I'm not really out to convince anybody else to follow suit. I've got my right to not join, but I don't have the right, nor am I aiming to make anyone else do anything. I will say though, that I don't see what problem there is with me saying that Smogon bans a lot of stuff, seeing that while the only real limitation in the Japanese meta is to keep uber legendaries a separate group, while putting everything else in one meta, Smogon has at least 5 moves/abilities banned, which I already gave specific examples as to how these bans quash moveset possibilities in a previous post.

A video about "never seeing Pokemon outside of ubers/OUs"
最強のポケモンはコイキング - YouTube
Jokes aside though, with luck factors removed from play, the slightest possibility that a weaker class Pokemon has of besting a stronger one is dashed, as Stratago has said.

I hope I made all my points...too much typing...
 
Not a Power Ranger
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Jokes aside though, with luck factors removed from play, the slightest possibility that a weaker class Pokemon has of besting a stronger one is dashed, as Stratago has said.
And yet, that slightest possiblity of a weaker class Pokemon defeating a stronger involves throwing all form of player skill and leaving the game entirely to chance.

I'm not saying that a weaker Pokemon can never defeat a stronger one. Its just highly unlikely and involes too much luck. But this also doesn't imply that a couple of instances of a weaker Pokemon defeating a stronger one is proof of Smogon's tiers being wrong.

By banning things that factor in luck and moves like Double Team, it forces tiers to be necessary by unbalancing the competition to a degree where a Pokemon that's 'too underpowered' will get smashed on by a 'strong' one.
Either that's some horrific quoting accident or my mind is fucked up to the point that I'm seeing myself saying things I've never said.
You're right. I apologize. That was a horrible quoting accident. I have corrected that post now.
 
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I'll say this again, Smogon does not ban luck based moves because they factor in too much luck but because tey take out all player skill. It doesn't take skill to spam double team but you have to think twice before using any offensive move or a main stat(ie the main 5 stats) boosting move. The high power low accuracy moves are also luck based moves as are critical hits but they aren't banned because they still need player skill.

Remember, the chance of missing Focus Blast is the same as the chance of a OHKO move hitting. But using a OHKO move means you've left the whole game to chance. You're gonna win or you're gonna lose and neither your skill or your opponents's skill is gonna get in the way.
Their justifications for why they ban what they ban doesn't make my point any less relevant. And I was talking about why tiers are forced to be necessary, in this case.
 
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Their justifications for why they ban what they ban doesn't make my point any less relevant. And I was talking about why tiers are forced to be necessary, in this case.
Banning double team has nothing to do with tiers. Pokemon is an unbalanced mess of a game and that's why they'd need tiers regardless of double team being banned or not.
 
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I'll say this again, Smogon does not ban luck based moves because they factor in too much luck but because tey take out all player skill. It doesn't take skill to spam double team but you have to think twice before using any offensive move or a main stat(ie the main 5 stats) boosting move. The high power low accuracy moves are also luck based moves as are critical hits but they aren't banned because they still need player skill.

Remember, the chance of missing Focus Blast is the same as the chance of a OHKO move hitting. But using a OHKO move means you've left the whole game to chance. You're gonna win or you're gonna lose and neither your skill or your opponents's skill is gonna get in the way.
Their justifications for why they ban what they ban doesn't make my point any less relevant. And I was talking about why tiers are forced to be necessary, in this case.
Tiers are not necessary. But they allow for inferior Pokemon to be used without fear of being crushed. That is the purpose of tiers. Nothing more. And Smogon does not decide the tiers. The people playing do. The only thing smogon does in managing tiers is condect regular suspect tests and ban a Pokemon if it is too centralizing. The tiers themselves are based on usage. One would think that the terms Overused, underused, rarelyused and neverused would be a dead giva away but apparently not. How much each Pokemon is used is regularly noted on their PO server. If someone could convince a 1000 people or so to use Spinda in OU, it WOULD become OU, atleast for a while.
 
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I'll say this again, Smogon does not ban luck based moves because they factor in too much luck but because tey take out all player skill. It doesn't take skill to spam double team but you have to think twice before using any offensive move or a main stat(ie the main 5 stats) boosting move. The high power low accuracy moves are also luck based moves as are critical hits but they aren't banned because they still need player skill.

Remember, the chance of missing Focus Blast is the same as the chance of a OHKO move hitting. But using a OHKO move means you've left the whole game to chance. You're gonna win or you're gonna lose and neither your skill or your opponents's skill is gonna get in the way.
Their justifications for why they ban what they ban doesn't make my point any less relevant. And I was talking about why tiers are forced to be necessary, in this case.
Tiers are not necessary. But they allow for inferior Pokemon to be used without fear of being crushed. That is the purpose of tiers. Nothing more. And Smogon does not decide the tiers. The people playing do. The only thing smogon does in managing tiers is condect regular suspect tests and ban a Pokemon if it is too centralizing. The tiers themselves are based on usage. One would think that the terms Overused, underused, rarelyused and neverused would be a dead giva away but apparently not. How much each Pokemon is used is regularly noted on their PO server. If someone could convince a 1000 people or so to use Spinda in OU, it WOULD become OU, atleast for a while.
Thanks for supporting my theory that Smogon bans/tiers are tantamount to popularity contests, but what exactly classifies a Pokemon as 'inferior'? If in fact tiers are based on nothing more than usage, then stats wouldn't even play into that, so there would be no such thing as an inferior Pokemon by that logic.
I still say that the luck factor of things like Double Team would allow an 'inferior' Pokemon from a 'weaker' tier to at least stand up to a 'better' one, or even win. It would be like a featherweight beating a heavyweight champ - in the past, upsets like that have become legendary. I agree that spamming Double Team on a Pokemon who doesn't really need it to win is lame and unnecessary, but what kind of self-respecting player would resort to such a cheap tactic?
 
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I'll say this again, Smogon does not ban luck based moves because they factor in too much luck but because tey take out all player skill. It doesn't take skill to spam double team but you have to think twice before using any offensive move or a main stat(ie the main 5 stats) boosting move. The high power low accuracy moves are also luck based moves as are critical hits but they aren't banned because they still need player skill.

Remember, the chance of missing Focus Blast is the same as the chance of a OHKO move hitting. But using a OHKO move means you've left the whole game to chance. You're gonna win or you're gonna lose and neither your skill or your opponents's skill is gonna get in the way.
Their justifications for why they ban what they ban doesn't make my point any less relevant. And I was talking about why tiers are forced to be necessary, in this case.
Tiers are not necessary. But they allow for inferior Pokemon to be used without fear of being crushed. That is the purpose of tiers. Nothing more. And Smogon does not decide the tiers. The people playing do. The only thing smogon does in managing tiers is condect regular suspect tests and ban a Pokemon if it is too centralizing. The tiers themselves are based on usage. One would think that the terms Overused, underused, rarelyused and neverused would be a dead giva away but apparently not. How much each Pokemon is used is regularly noted on their PO server. If someone could convince a 1000 people or so to use Spinda in OU, it WOULD become OU, atleast for a while.
Thanks for supporting my theory that Smogon bans/tiers are tantamount to popularity contests, but what exactly classifies a Pokemon as 'inferior'? If in fact tiers are based on nothing more than usage, then stats wouldn't even play into that, so there would be no such thing as an inferior Pokemon by that logic.
I still say that the luck factor of things like Double Team would allow an 'inferior' Pokemon from a 'weaker' tier to at least stand up to a 'better' one, or even win. It would be like a featherweight beating a heavyweight champ - in the past, upsets like that have become legendary. I agree that spamming Double Team on a Pokemon who doesn't really need it to win is lame and unnecessary, but what kind of self-respecting player would resort to such a cheap tactic?
Because through experience, people learn which Pokemon are just naturally better. No matter how you slice it, pokemon such as Floatzel just aren't good even though their good stats may lead you to think otherwise. And if it was a straight up popularity contest, Charizard would be OU but its actually NU.

Your point on Double Team still doesn't answer one question. What's stopping people from putting double team on superior Pokemon like Blissey? You say that spamming double team is a cheap tactic and I agree but if it was allowed, people would use it despite it being cheap if it gets results.

If you allow Double Team, then you kicking player skill out. As soon as a Pokemon has 2 double teams up, we may as toss coins to decide the match winner.
 
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I agree that spamming Double Team on a Pokemon who doesn't really need it to win is lame and unnecessary, but what kind of self-respecting player would resort to such a cheap tactic?
Players who want to win?
 
Cranky Curmudgeon
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I see bans as pointless, as people will just all move onto this next best thing, starting the cycle over again.
 
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Look, you are not forced to follow their rules. And beside that, What if they let everyone use Arceus in a normal game play, what is the place on a Meganium in the game? Fodders?
Comon, playing evasion is just flipping coins, sometime, you got a critical hit right on head even you have +6 evasion. Whats the point of playing luck?
Even luck is a factor of a game, it doesn't mean you can depend on luck. If you lost a match just because of he sent out a Moody Smeargle and it start lowering its SP Def stat and raising Evasion, whatever move you are using missed and he spammed Shell Smash 3 times followed by a Baton Pass, I will see those here saying that they are not in place to ban anything rage quit.
I AM SURE YOU WILL RAGE QUIT!!!!!!!!
I AM SURE NO ONE LIKES TO BATTLE A MOODY SMASH PASS SMEARGLE, NO ONE WILL LIKE IT!!!!
Pokemon in lower tiers doesn't mean they are weak, look, I once get into finals with 1 OU Pokemon, 2 UU Pokemon and 3 NU Pokemon in a UBER tournament! They are not weeak, just strategies have to be made! I have Choice Band on 2 Pokemon and Focus Sash on 1. Even I lost in the finals, the Focus Sash and Choice Band caught them off-guard and I made it to 1-1. I won the semi-finals defeating a Kyogre, Groudon, Arceus and Giratina, is it that hard?
 
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@ Ranger Jack Walker: I think I've said this before, but there are moves that never miss no matter how many times something uses DT. And before anyone says it, I know, most are weak or whatever, but since you mentioned Blissey, Aura Sphere came to mind as it's Fighting Type. Also, you still didn't explain the whole 'superiority' thing; is it base stats? Moves? What?

@ Grass Type Trainer: My question was "What self-respecting player would spam DT on a Pokemon which didn't need it?", so the answer should be "A player who's so obsessed with victory that they're not worth playing with?"

@ Mareepy: ...what are you talking about? Is the Meganium=fodder a joke because it's Grass-type? A 6-on-six Arceus battle would be pretty cool, IMO, and I never said somebody should depend on luck, I said that luck would partially equalize the playing field.
A Moody Smeargle with Baton Pass and Shell Smash is brilliant, and kudos to the person who (originally) thought of it, but that setup you described actually happening would be miraculous. Moody granting multiple Evasion bonuses is just as likely as multiple Evasion drops, and that's in the 'hands' of the RNG, so it's not worth even getting upset about. For the record, I wouldn't "Rage Quit" over anything, and people who would should probably stop playing and possibly look into blood pressure medication if they're going to get so pissed off over a game.
I'm not sure exactly what point you're trying to make with your final paragraph, either. I'm in support of using so-called 'weak' Pokemon, so are you agreeing with me...?
 
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@ Ranger Jack Walker: I think I've said this before, but there are moves that never miss no matter how many times something uses DT. And before anyone says it, I know, most are weak or whatever, but since you mentioned Blissey, Aura Sphere came to mind as it's Fighting Type. Also, you still didn't explain the whole 'superiority' thing; is it base stats? Moves? What?
Aura Sphere is a Special Move and it can miss. I have no idea why anyone would even consider using it against a Blissey. And the moves that can't miss are awful. 60 base power is awful except on those select few with Technician. For example, even with the Technican Boost, an Aerial Ace Scizor will only manage to get a 3 HKO on a standard Blissey. Thats simply not worth it.

Sometimes the superiority of a Pokemon is just plain obvious. For example, tell me why I should use an Almomola when I could use a Suicune, especially since they both do the same job except Suicune does it far better? And Suicune itself is just UU. There are some even better Bulky Waters.

What makes a Pokemon superior is a combination of stats, movepool, type and ability. There is no straight up way to determine the more superior ones. Occasionally, a Pokemon may rise in prominence only to fall down again but the fact remains that some Pokemon just flat out suck even there wasn't another Pokemon who did its job better.
 
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Aura Sphere is a Special Move and it can miss. I have no idea why anyone would even consider using it against a Blissey. And the moves that can't miss are awful. 60 base power is awful except on those select few with Technician. For example, even with the Technican Boost, an Aerial Ace Scizor will only manage to get a 3 HKO on a standard Blissey. Thats simply not worth it.
Actually, Aura Sphere has 90 base power compared to other moves that can't miss. +2 Timid Lucario's Aura Sphere 2HKOs Max HP/Def Blissey. :V
And without NP Lucario you'd be totally screwed against DT Blissey.
 
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The metagame is all kinds of jacked currently. Smogon tries to mitigate this by deciding that certain Pokemon are uber and banning or limiting certain strategies. I appreciate what they have done for the community as a whole. Without Smogon and its ilk, many things we know about the game mechanics such as Effort Values, breeding, moves, etc., would still be unknown to the vast majority. However, with nearly 700 different Pokemon to deal with, and countless strategies and move/team compositions, competitive players are going to just have to accept that there is not now, nor will there ever be a 'perfect team' that can handle everything. I understand the competive desire to remove luck and emphasize skill, however, this game is naturally wild and unpredictable... Minimizing or manipulating that luck to your advantage is a different kind of skill, but skill nonetheless.
Unfortunately, there is an element within Smogon that takes things too far. The fact that there are players who would actually ban critical hits if it were possible speaks volumes about the difference between people who take the game as serious as a Korean Starcraft player and the kid who just wants to use his favorite pokes with the moves he's chosen. But here's the rub; you're both right.

The "non-competitive" player is right because he doesn't want nor need the "competitive" player's rules and clauses mucking up his attempts to just let loose and have fun battling. The "competitive" guy doesn't care for the wild, unrestrained "non-competitive" guy swinging for the fences with his OHKOs, Double Teams, and Moody Bidoofs occasionally "stealing" wins from his carefully planned OU Singles team.

TL;DR version: Different styles, different players. I think its amazing that this game can be played so many different ways by so many different players. Competitive or no, Smogon lover or hater, you all like playing this game. Learn how to let each other be, and both sides will be far happier.
 
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No, I messed up there. But Aura Sphere is a move that few Pokemon learn anyway.
So that's a reason to discredit it? Lucario, Mienshao and Togekiss learn it, and so does that shiny Raikou from last year. (Or does it count as Uber, being quasi-legendary...?)
 
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No, I messed up there. But Aura Sphere is a move that few Pokemon learn anyway.
So that's a reason to discredit it? Lucario, Mienshao and Togekiss learn it, and so does that shiny Raikou from last year. (Or does it count as Uber, being quasi-legendary...?)
Only 3 Pokemon to counter a move that is near universal? The special Raikou comes with a fixed Rash nature which means it reduces its rather great Sp.D and it can't use a Calm Mind set effectively which is one of its favoured sets I believe. Yes, I'd say that does discredit Aura Sphere as a viable counter to Double Team.
 
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Aura sphere would be a nice counter to Double-Teaming Blissey, yes. But I have encountered a double teaming drifblim which stands uneffected by aura sphere, then, of course, the guy had to make things impossible by Sending out a Raikou with Psych Up/Substitute + leftovers, but that's besides the point. What I'm trying to get at is, Aura sphere doesn't effect ghost type double-teamers so a tech boosted areial ace would be okay or if you are using a lucario, get a backup faint attack/shadow punch just in case.

On the topic of defeating cheap OU strategies, how on earth do you get past a Terrakion strategy without choice scarfing??
 
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