Smogon bans and suspect tests discussion

[TerraTF]

At this point stall is extremely hard to pull off
With the Aegislash ban the trio of Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, and Mega Gardevoir has risen, and stall cannot efficiently check them
The closest there is to a check to all three of them is Doublade, but it has to either invest into SpDef and hope that Mega Heracross is not packing EQ or invest into physical defense and lose to Gardevoir
When the opponent's team has only one of those, it's manageable, but if it's paired up with something like Trick Latios/Rotom, or Bisharp, or another stallbreaker/wallbreaker like Mew or Knock Off genie-I of choice, or one of them is paired with another wallbreaker, like MCharizard Y, it's pretty much an auto-loss for stall player

0- Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 340-408 (109.3 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (107 BP) vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 302-356 (109 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 240-284 (86.6 - 102.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The only one of those 3 that is harder to be with a common stall Pokemon is M-Medicham. We'll likely see stall much less lower on the ladder but higher level players who know how to counter those three will be just fine.

I assume that you are not aware that Ferrothorn is 2HKOed by a Focus Blast and thus can't switch in, Skarmory is 2HKOed by Heracross' CC after rocks and therefore can't switch in either, and defensive Mega Venusaur is 2HKOed by MGarde's Psyshock and thus can't switch in, and it also cannot OHKO with Sludge Bomb because Venusasurs don't run SpAtk on stall.

Which is why I said "high level player". If you gave a stall team to someone lower on the tier and had them counter M-Gardevoir, M-Heracross, and M-Medicham they wouldn't know that if they sacked a Pokemon to bring out Ferrothorn or Skarmory cleanly then they'd lose every time.

 

[Alexey]

I was sitting here for 5 minutes trying to understand what you meant, but I still don't think I understood you correctly
Do you mean that players at low ladder are going to sack pokemon in order to bring "Ferrothorns" in against "Gardevoirs" without having to take a hit so that they can survive another hit and KO back?
Or did you say that people on the low ladder are not going to sack anything, but, instead, will stay in and end up swept by the wallbreaker(s)?

 

[TerraTF]

I was sitting here for 5 minutes trying to understand what you meant, but I still don't think I understood you correctly
Do you mean that players at low ladder are going to sack pokemon in order to bring "Ferrothorns" in against "Gardevoirs" without having to take a hit so that they can survive another hit and KO back?
Or did you say that people on the low ladder are not going to sack anything, but, instead, will stay in and end up swept by the wallbreaker(s)?

People on the lower part of the ladder won't know to save their Ferrothorn so they can OHKO the opponent's M-Gardevoir and their Ferrothorn will likely end up with damage on it so when it comes out to face M-Gardevoir Ferrothorn will lose.

 

[Alexey]

I see
There is one thing you are not taking into account: Gardevoir simply breaks something else (whatever is sacked), Ferrothorn comes in... and Garde switches out. Then it comes in on something else, and again it gets a kill. Rinse and repeat. That's why a check to something when one plays stall, as opposed to other playstyles, has to be able to survive at least two hits from that poke which is supposedly checked
If you play stall and your pokemon is 2HKOed by something on the opponent's team, that Pokemon doesn't check it

This is not dependent on the level of the players

 

[UB-01 Kenobi]

Yeah no offense but it's pretty clear you don't play stall often. There is no such thing as saccing when you play stall, losing one member of your team opens up a massive hole the opponent can exploit and as such it's your top priority to keep every member alive until lategame at which point everything that mon checked is dead and you're capable of making a sac. If you need Ferrothorn to check Gardevoir, then what will you use to check, say, Azumarill? It's literally impossible to play the way you're suggesting, an ideal stall team has at least 1 Pokémon that can take at least 2 hits and either heal up or OHKO the opponent for every other Pokémon in the game. (This obviously approaches impossible, so you end up having to choose to be weak to certain Pokémon and live with the fact that unless you play perfectly you'll likely lose when you face that Pokémon.) Choosing one of the Big Three (MHera, MGarde, MMedi) to be weak to is one of the worst ideas ever in building a stall team, and packing Ferrothorn as your check to Gardevoir means you're incredibly fucked against Garde teams as either Will-O-Wisp or Focus Blast ruins your day.

 

[Simba]

You know what's insane? I'm starting to think - and I can't believe I'm saying this - that Stealth Rock should be banned.

Just for one simple reason -- every single team HAS to have a spinner, just to get rid of Stealth Rocks, because every other team has a Stealth Rocks layer.

It's not broken, it's not overpowered, it's not centralizing per se, but it's so easy and effortless to set up, and so good, and wrecks so many mons, that having a spinner (or defogger, or Magic Bouncer) is necessary on every single team, bar none.

I recently got back on Pokemon Showdown and in 40+ battles I haven't seen a single team without a spinner. Banning SR would completely change the metagame, and I think for the funner. It's boring having one of your team slots on any conceivable team you could ever want to make dictated by the presence of SR.

 

[TerraTF]

You know what's insane? I'm starting to think - and I can't believe I'm saying this - that Stealth Rock should be banned.

Just for one simple reason -- every single team HAS to have a spinner, just to get rid of Stealth Rocks, because every other team has a Stealth Rocks layer.

It's not broken, it's not overpowered, it's not centralizing per se, but it's so easy and effortless to set up, and so good, and wrecks so many mons, that having a spinner (or defogger, or Magic Bouncer) is necessary on every single team, bar none.

I recently got back on Pokemon Showdown and in 40+ battles I haven't seen a single team without a spinner. Banning SR would completely change the metagame, and I think for the funner. It's boring having one of your team slots on any conceivable team you could ever want to make dictated by the presence of SR.

Banning Stealth Rocks would just centralize the meta to using either Spike or Toxic Spikes. Its actually way easier to take down SR than to put it up. All you have to do is make sure that their layer is down and out so that your Defogger or Spinner can easily take Rocks down. If SR would to be banned Talonflame and both M-Charizards would run even more rampant than they do now.

 

[DCM]

You know what's insane? I'm starting to think - and I can't believe I'm saying this - that Stealth Rock should be banned.

Just for one simple reason -- every single team HAS to have a spinner, just to get rid of Stealth Rocks, because every other team has a Stealth Rocks layer.

It's not broken, it's not overpowered, it's not centralizing per se, but it's so easy and effortless to set up, and so good, and wrecks so many mons, that having a spinner (or defogger, or Magic Bouncer) is necessary on every single team, bar none.

I recently got back on Pokemon Showdown and in 40+ battles I haven't seen a single team without a spinner. Banning SR would completely change the metagame, and I think for the funner. It's boring having one of your team slots on any conceivable team you could ever want to make dictated by the presence of SR.

Banning Stealth Rocks would just centralize the meta to using either Spike or Toxic Spikes. Its actually way easier to take down SR than to put it up. All you have to do is make sure that their layer is down and out so that your Defogger or Spinner can easily take Rocks down. If SR would to be banned Talonflame and both M-Charizards would run even more rampant than they do now.

I remember seeing a lot of discussion about banning stealth rock when Diamond and Pearl came out. I don't think banning stealth rock would overcentralize the meta around spikes / toxic spikes (nor do I think we could ever have a metagame centralized around those... not with defog around), but I do think stealth rocks keeps a lot of important stuff in check (like you said. and keeps the meta a little slower paced.

 

[TerraTF]

You know what's insane? I'm starting to think - and I can't believe I'm saying this - that Stealth Rock should be banned.

Just for one simple reason -- every single team HAS to have a spinner, just to get rid of Stealth Rocks, because every other team has a Stealth Rocks layer.

It's not broken, it's not overpowered, it's not centralizing per se, but it's so easy and effortless to set up, and so good, and wrecks so many mons, that having a spinner (or defogger, or Magic Bouncer) is necessary on every single team, bar none.

I recently got back on Pokemon Showdown and in 40+ battles I haven't seen a single team without a spinner. Banning SR would completely change the metagame, and I think for the funner. It's boring having one of your team slots on any conceivable team you could ever want to make dictated by the presence of SR.

Banning Stealth Rocks would just centralize the meta to using either Spike or Toxic Spikes. Its actually way easier to take down SR than to put it up. All you have to do is make sure that their layer is down and out so that your Defogger or Spinner can easily take Rocks down. If SR would to be banned Talonflame and both M-Charizards would run even more rampant than they do now.

I remember seeing a lot of discussion about banning stealth rock when Diamond and Pearl came out. I don't think banning stealth rock would overcentralize the meta around spikes / toxic spikes (nor do I think we could ever have a metagame centralized around those... not with defog around), but I do think stealth rocks keeps a lot of important stuff in check (like you said. and keeps the meta a little slower paced.

The loss of Stealth Rocks would also completely destroy Stall. Its a hell of a lot harder to Stall out using just Toxic damage especially when the opponent will be switching a lot.

 

[DCM]

You know what's insane? I'm starting to think - and I can't believe I'm saying this - that Stealth Rock should be banned.

Just for one simple reason -- every single team HAS to have a spinner, just to get rid of Stealth Rocks, because every other team has a Stealth Rocks layer.

It's not broken, it's not overpowered, it's not centralizing per se, but it's so easy and effortless to set up, and so good, and wrecks so many mons, that having a spinner (or defogger, or Magic Bouncer) is necessary on every single team, bar none.

I recently got back on Pokemon Showdown and in 40+ battles I haven't seen a single team without a spinner. Banning SR would completely change the metagame, and I think for the funner. It's boring having one of your team slots on any conceivable team you could ever want to make dictated by the presence of SR.

Banning Stealth Rocks would just centralize the meta to using either Spike or Toxic Spikes. Its actually way easier to take down SR than to put it up. All you have to do is make sure that their layer is down and out so that your Defogger or Spinner can easily take Rocks down. If SR would to be banned Talonflame and both M-Charizards would run even more rampant than they do now.

I remember seeing a lot of discussion about banning stealth rock when Diamond and Pearl came out. I don't think banning stealth rock would overcentralize the meta around spikes / toxic spikes (nor do I think we could ever have a metagame centralized around those... not with defog around), but I do think stealth rocks keeps a lot of important stuff in check (like you said. and keeps the meta a little slower paced.

The loss of Stealth Rocks would also completely destroy Stall. Its a hell of a lot harder to Stall out using just Toxic damage especially when the opponent will be switching a lot.

do you think Talonflame would be worthy of a suspect test if stealth rock wasn't an issue? what about the charizards?

 

[TerraTF]

You know what's insane? I'm starting to think - and I can't believe I'm saying this - that Stealth Rock should be banned.

Just for one simple reason -- every single team HAS to have a spinner, just to get rid of Stealth Rocks, because every other team has a Stealth Rocks layer.

It's not broken, it's not overpowered, it's not centralizing per se, but it's so easy and effortless to set up, and so good, and wrecks so many mons, that having a spinner (or defogger, or Magic Bouncer) is necessary on every single team, bar none.

I recently got back on Pokemon Showdown and in 40+ battles I haven't seen a single team without a spinner. Banning SR would completely change the metagame, and I think for the funner. It's boring having one of your team slots on any conceivable team you could ever want to make dictated by the presence of SR.

Banning Stealth Rocks would just centralize the meta to using either Spike or Toxic Spikes. Its actually way easier to take down SR than to put it up. All you have to do is make sure that their layer is down and out so that your Defogger or Spinner can easily take Rocks down. If SR would to be banned Talonflame and both M-Charizards would run even more rampant than they do now.

I remember seeing a lot of discussion about banning stealth rock when Diamond and Pearl came out. I don't think banning stealth rock would overcentralize the meta around spikes / toxic spikes (nor do I think we could ever have a metagame centralized around those... not with defog around), but I do think stealth rocks keeps a lot of important stuff in check (like you said. and keeps the meta a little slower paced.

The loss of Stealth Rocks would also completely destroy Stall. Its a hell of a lot harder to Stall out using just Toxic damage especially when the opponent will be switching a lot.

do you think Talonflame would be worthy of a suspect test if stealth rock wasn't an issue? what about the charizards?

They definitely would have been suspected very early on, I suspect by the 3rd round of testing if SR didn't exist. Charizard by itself is a pretty good Pokemon, the addition of Stealth Rocks definitely brought him down but his Mega's made him far better than before.

 

[UB-01 Kenobi]

Yeah there was like a ladder in BW where Rocks were banned and it wasn't a better meta, the only real difference was that Volcarona was borderline OP. This gen that would be TFlame and CharX, but the experiment still stands.

 

[Simba]

I don't think banning SR would make Spikes centralizing. Spikes take so long to set up. And Toxic Spikes are virtually worthless unless you build your entire team around using them. And while yes, SR are easy to take down, my main point is, the presence of SR forces every single team bar none to have a spinner. It's boring and obnoxious and forces your hand when teambuilding. If the only hazards were Toxic/Spikes, you wouldn't have to have a spinner on every team because they aren't used as much.

I should point out here I've never actually had a problem with Stealth Rocks. Mainly I just ignore them, and I still win 75+% of the time with my good teams. It's just unsavory that SR forces every single team to have a spinner. It just slows down gameplay. "Ohp, he put up Stealth Rocks. Gotta bring out my spinner. Oop, he has a ghost type, gotta bring out my counter to get rid of it so it doesn't spinblock me first." It's so formulaic.

SR is one of the top things that makes competitive Pokemon formulaic and dull. The lower tiers not so much, but OU is boring as crap.

EDIT: Also note that if the only thing stopping Talonflame from being Uber is the presence of Stealth Rocks, then guess what? Talonflame is Uber. The fact of the matter is, if you don't have Stealth Rocks and/or a specific Talonflame counter on your team and your opponent has a Talonflame, you lose.

 

[UB-01 Kenobi]

If you build a team that auto loses to Talonflame, you've done something terribly wrong. That's like bringing a team of 6 in which each member is weak to Ground and complaining when you get swept by a Diggersby. The point is that Stealth Rock actually diversifies teambuilding because with it you don't need to pack 1 hard counter/a collection of loose checks to TFlame, you just need one solid check that can force it out one time and recoil and Rocks will do the dirty work for you. The fact that you need a way to deal with Talon doesn't make it Uber, it just means he's good. You need a group of Mega Heracross checks or you auto-lose to it - fact. But nobody would ever claim it's banworthy. Same with Talon, it's just that one of its checks is an entry hazard, not a Pokémon.

 

[Alexey]

Rotoms and Tyranitars and Bisharps and Heatrans and Terrakions and Landorus-Ts all say hi to Talonflame
Without rocks

 

[Psycho Pacifist]

Well according to an Ubers moderator over on Smogon, M-Gengar will most likely be staying. (It was directly said in the Ubers SQSA thread)

 

[Lord Reshiram]

Most people invest in HP on Talonflame over SPEED, so Mold Breaker takes care of it with a rock slide

 

[Psycho Pacifist]

Well according to an Ubers moderator over on Smogon, M-Gengar will most likely be staying. (It was directly said in the Ubers SQSA thread)

^Official now. 46 Ban, 75 Do not Ban. With a majority of 60.5%

 

[SharKing]

46 Ban, 75 Ban. With a majority of 60.5%

You meant "Do Not Ban", right?

Well, I'm indifferent to this myself, as I haven't played XY Ubers at all... yet. However, I'll admit to having been confounded at the idea of banning a Pokémon (even a Mega Evolution) from the Uber tier, of all things. XD

 

[Psycho Pacifist]

Thanks for correcting me ^_^

I think it was mostly Shadow Tag in combination with that speed. I believe that's the next suspect test in Ubers.