Smogon bans and suspect tests discussion

[DCM]

I don't think I've actually seen any good arguments from the Anti-Ban side. What are the benefits to having a Greninja Metagame? I've been playing the suspect ladder a lot and I really like the meta without him.

 

[Zeb]

ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 1, Voting | Page 10 | Smogon Forums

rip frog

good riddance

(greninja was banned with 205 ban - 44 no ban)

 

[TerraTF]

ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 1, Voting | Page 10 | Smogon Forums

rip frog

good riddance

(greninja was banned with 205 ban - 44 no ban)

Goddamn. Time to see how the meta settles.

 

[Zeb]

Mega Pidgeot, Dragalge and Serperior were all just banned from RU by a supermajority.

 

[SharKing]

Based on what I saw in the suspect thread, I'm a little surprised Bird Jesus got banned, since it seemed the least likely of the three.

Heretics.

 

[Zeb]

Well the vote on Mega Pidgeot was 90 ban and 27 no ban. So quite a clear ban. (Dragalge was 91 ban - 24 no ban, Serperior was 98 ban - 17 no ban - 3 abstain). Pidgeot and Serperior just rose to UU by usage anyway, so they didn't even spend 24 hours sat in BL2. Poor Dragalge though

 

[Alexey]

But... but Dragalge is an absolute monster *_* I don't really play RU (or UU, for that matter), but in OU it runs Specs, Toxic/Draco Plate, Life Orb, and just reks
And then there's the deceptively effective TSpikes set

 

[Norzan]

Wonder if a suspect test to Rock Head Tyrantrum will be done.

 

[Zeb]

But... but Dragalge is an absolute monster *_* I don't really play RU (or UU, for that matter), but in OU it runs Specs, Toxic/Draco Plate, Life Orb, and just reks
And then there's the deceptively effective TSpikes set

I meant poor Dragalge living out its days in a BL rather than a tier like RU or UU :/

Wonder if a suspect test to Rock Head Tyrantrum will be done.

In RU I imagine it will be eventually. It has less pressure there so has potential for more sets than in OU. In OU I think will stick to a Choice Band set, I just don't see DD working out well there. Banded Head Smash from Tyrantrum can 2HKO Mega Slowbro of all things.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 180-213 (45.6 - 54%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO

Rock resists can generally take it better, but on the whole pretty much everything is nuked by it so I don't see lower tiers handling it well at all. Mega Steelix is probably going to the best option down there, off the top of my head.

 

[Amoebo]

not a surprise on serp, specs contrary leafstorm is not fun

 

[Zeb]

Don't use Specs Serperior pls. Life Orb > Specs.

 

[Amoebo]

Don't use Specs Serperior pls. Life Orb > Specs.

but specs r damage

 

[Infinity Storm]

On a random note, I'm still personally amazed nothing has ever tested Darmanitan for the UU tier. Granted, I know that Darmanitan can be beat by specific counters that are viable options to run, but dear Xernias that thing is terrifying. I've run the speed set (Scarf instead of Life Orb, literally the only difference between the two sets) and it still consistently two-hit KOs Milotic and Haxorus with Flare Blitz.

 

[Winterdaze]

Darma is very manageable due to the fact that it kills itself so quickly. Between the stealth rock weakness, recoil and pathetic defenses, its severe survivability issues really limits the amount of damage it can do. Not to mention it's quite easy to revenge kill, base 95 speed is not that great, and it lacks the bulk that other wallbreakers have.

As for the bans on Dragalge, Serperior and Pidgeot, all I can say is good riddance. As much as I loved using Dragalge and Pidgeot, they were definitely unhealthy for the metagame. It looks like RU might enjoy a bit of stability at last, at least until Rock Head Tyrantrum arrives.

 

[winstein]

I am amazed that Serperior gained so much popularity within around three weeks of Contrary. It steadily got banned in tiers starting from where it was, climbing from PU, then NU, then RU, then got promoted to UU eventually (though it was close to being OU through usage). Even on Pokemon Online, Serperior got promoted to UU through usage. Contrary really made all the difference in the world, including discouraging Sticky Web setup, gaining evasion from Defog and actually benefiting from Memento (recently saw a replay where the opponent forfeited after Serperior received Whimsicott's Memento).

I'm actually curious to know what Serperior's performance is like in Inverse battle, because of Grass' great offensive coverage there.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Alexey]

I am amazed that Serperior gained so much popularity within around three weeks of Contrary. It steadily got banned in tiers starting from where it was, climbing from PU, then NU, then RU, then got promoted to UU eventually (though it was close to being OU through usage). Even on Pokemon Online, Serperior got promoted to UU through usage. Contrary really made all the difference in the world, including discouraging Sticky Web setup, gaining evasion from Defog and actually benefiting from Memento (recently saw a replay where the opponent forfeited after Serperior received Whimsicott's Memento).

I'm actually curious to know what Serperior's performance is like in Inverse battle, because of Grass' great offensive coverage there.

Thanks for reading.

You're actually spot on about the Whimsicott
The release of Contrary Serperior may very well be the final "f*** you" to DenisssPass

 

[Fairy Type Arceus]

Finally found a cool new steel mega I like in metagross

I swear to Arceus they'll ban every mega (more accurately the ones I like) I know it hasn't been banned yet but I have the feeling he will be. I may not know much about the metagame I always found it to confusing to try and understand the whole thing but metagross getting banned? wtf?

Why not just bring prankster sabalye and burn him? then recover and shadow sneak spam him to death or switch into slowbro after that grass knot won't kill slowbro when metagross is burned. (float stone slowbro anyone? not sure if that'd work) what about bisharp, a sucker punch from that guy hurts. or mandibuzz. Steel got a major nerf which hurts metagross the most out of all steel types, he gained two new weaknesses in dark and ghost. Are you telling me out of all the dark, ghost, fire and ground types not one of them can come in and take metagross out? It might require the loss of a pokemon to get a safe switch in but sometimes you need to sack a mon.

I guess the megas I like will keep getting banned (that was sarcasm, I know smogon isn't targeting anyone)

 

[AnybodyAgrees]

My instinct tells me that this suspect will actually be close, like the Aegislash suspect. If you really don't wanna see him go, then head to Showdown's Suspect Test ladder and get a COIL of 2700, like I'm trying to do. I'm voting No Ban if I actually make reqs. I don't see the reasons that this is broken. It can't outspeed and 2HKO almost every single switch-in like Greninja, and it can't have its moveset adjusted to deal with almost any threat to your team like Greninja. I can actually think of something that is perfectly viable that can switch in and force Metagross out every single time.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Thunder Punch vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 136-160 (41.3 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If it counters that, that's a 37.5% chance to OHKO Metagross in return.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Roosting Skarmory: 180-212 (54.7 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is problematic though, but the Metagross needs to use Hammer Arm twice to be slower than you, during which you can use Counter twice to just KO him.

Keep in mind that this assumes that the Metagross even carries Thunder Punch, which is relatively uncommon. Hammer Arm is not problematic, you can just switch in on the first one, Roost on the second one, and Counter twice on the third and fourth one.

 

[Alexey]

Here's what I think:

I have no bloody clue if it's ban-worthy. It kinda is, but it also kinda isn't

 

[UB-01 Kenobi]

My instinct tells me that this suspect will actually be close, like the Aegislash suspect. If you really don't wanna see him go, then head to Showdown's Suspect Test ladder and get a COIL of 2700, like I'm trying to do. I'm voting No Ban if I actually make reqs. I don't see the reasons that this is broken. It can't outspeed and 2HKO almost every single switch-in like Greninja, and it can't have its moveset adjusted to deal with almost any threat to your team like Greninja. I can actually think of something that is perfectly viable that can switch in and force Metagross out every single time.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Thunder Punch vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 136-160 (41.3 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If it counters that, that's a 37.5% chance to OHKO Metagross in return.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Roosting Skarmory: 180-212 (54.7 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is problematic though, but the Metagross needs to use Hammer Arm twice to be slower than you, during which you can use Counter twice to just KO him.

Keep in mind that this assumes that the Metagross even carries Thunder Punch, which is relatively uncommon. Hammer Arm is not problematic, you can just switch in on the first one, Roost on the second one, and Counter twice on the third and fourth one.

That necessitates that every Skarmory carries Counter, and it also doesn't account for slower, bulkier builds designed to break Skarmory and other walls or sweep with Agility (it switches in on a Hammer Arm, goes to Roost, only to eat: 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory on Roost: 196-232 (59.5 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery followed by one or two of these: 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 98-116 (29.7 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery)

So not only does Skarmory need to a) pack Counter and b) be at a range where it can take two hits without Roosting to win, it might still lose to certain builds.


I'm honestly just playing devil's advocate, here - I can see both sides of the argument and I don't care strongly either way so I won't ladder.