So is Journeys the Worst Series Ever?

[Daren]

I can see why SM, Journeys and Horizons would be considered divisive and controversial among fans, but I don't see how that really applies to XY. Aside from the Kalos League, there wasn't much backlash compared to those series. I'd argue even SM became less divisive over time too.

XY seems to be the least controversial series in the back half of the show, but I did see some amount of non-league disparagement towards it on other sites, generally over thinking it was "trying too hard to appeal be cool/dark/appeal to older fans" and the noted lack of continuity with the previous series'. And a few people who loved BW or Sun/Moon that disliked it.
And honestly the league backlash is so strongly associated with the XY anime it's hard for me to completely ignore it.

 

[Die-Hard Dragon Devotee]

I can see why SM, Journeys and Horizons would be considered divisive and controversial among fans, but I don't see how that really applies to XY. Aside from the Kalos League, there wasn't much backlash compared to those series. I'd argue even SM became less divisive over time too.

Woops, I meant 3. Miscounted in my head. My bad. (There's no way I could ever say anything bad about XY, except how they handled the league and Ash's incredibly forced releases of Goodra and Greninja. That's pretty much it though!)

 

[Kurolegacy]

Woops, I meant 3. Miscounted in my head. My bad. (There's no way I could ever say anything bad about XY, except how they handled the league and Ash's incredibly forced releases of Goodra and Greninja. That's pretty much it though!)

To this day I’d still love to know what the thought process was in those releases. We literally hadn’t done any releases with Ash since they got the series figured out and then they give him 2 strong Pokémon and just toss them out. Makes no sense.

 

[Greninjaman]

Woops, I meant 3. Miscounted in my head. My bad. (There's no way I could ever say anything bad about XY, except how they handled the league and Ash's incredibly forced releases of Goodra and Greninja. That's pretty much it though!)

How were they forced?

 

[Die-Hard Dragon Devotee]

To this day I’d still love to know what the thought process was in those releases. We literally hadn’t done any releases with Ash since they got the series figured out and then they give him 2 strong Pokémon and just toss them out. Makes no sense.

Agreed. Completely nonsensical.

 

[Hidden Mew]

XY seems to be the least controversial series in the back half of the show, but I did see some amount of non-league disparagement towards it on other sites, generally over thinking it was "trying too hard to appeal be cool/dark/appeal to older fans" and the noted lack of continuity with the previous series'. And a few people who loved BW or Sun/Moon that disliked it.
And honestly the league backlash is so strongly associated with the XY anime it's hard for me to completely ignore it.

There were a fair amount of complaints towards the series even during its run, but that isn't quite the same thing as being controversial or divisive among fans, especially in a fanbase like Pokemon. The Kalos League backlash was pretty huge, but I don't think it had a negative impact on XY's overall reception, at least from what I saw during and after that stretch of the series.

Woops, I meant 3. Miscounted in my head. My bad. (There's no way I could ever say anything bad about XY, except how they handled the league and Ash's incredibly forced releases of Goodra and Greninja. That's pretty much it though!)

I didn't really have an issue with Greninja's release. After how much attention it got as Ash-Greninja, I don't know if I could have seen it just being at Professor Oak's Lab forever. Goodra's entire storyline was pretty rushed and it only evolved to give Ash a powerhouse for his battle against Clemont. People weren't sad that Ash was losing a close Pokemon friend. They were upset that he lost his psudeo legendary Pokemon. I probably wouldn't have minded its release that much if they actually gave Ash a proper sixth Pokemon on his team to take its place instead of keeping a slot for Goodra.

 

[Daren]

The Kalos League backlash was pretty huge, but I don't think it had a negative impact on XY's overall reception, at least from what I saw during and after that stretch of the series.

I think it hurt XY's reception, though it was sufficiently positive that it survived, so to speak. Based off the hype going in I think if Ash had beaten Alain XY would have a legendary reputation rather than just being up there with DP and Kanto.

 

[Falaish]

Neither Goodra nor Greninja was released. Goodra was treated the same way Charizard, Squirtle, and Gliscor (remember when he left a whole year in DP with a random air battle master?) etc. when they left and came back. There is really no difference with Goodra and how Charizard came and went many times prior to BW.

Greninja is in this weird position where it's both the protector of Kalos and Ash's Pokémon at the same time. Maybe if Ash is ever seen again we can see it or other pokemon reunite (XY is over 10 years old now for that matter, the nostalgia for it is going to be high).

 

[SatoSerefan5229]

Hell yeah it was the worst. Goh was annoying. Ash should have ditched him after his loss to Bea. I feel Ash would have been better off on his own. Also there was no need to have Chloe travel full time with Ash & Goh in the second. She shouldn’t have gotten Eevee as well. Give Goh an Eevee so he can have either Espeon or Umbreon but I guess the writers made a rule where only female travel companions can have Eevee. SM was pretty bad but JN was worse. For me JN is the worst series with SM a close second.

 

[Die-Hard Dragon Devotee]

Hell yeah it was the worst. Goh was annoying.

You said it.

I feel Ash would have been better off on his own.

Eeeeeh...........that wouldn't have worked out so great either. Ash is an iconic and awesome protagonist and character, through and through, but..........he doesn't really work as a solo character. His personality just isn't interesting enough. (On his own, he's pretty boring.) Ash always worked best as a character when he had others to bounce off of.

 

[SatoSerefan5229]

Eeeeeh...........that wouldn't have worked out so great either. Ash is an iconic and awesome protagonist and character, through and through, but..........he doesn't really work as a solo character. His personality just ain't interesting enough. Ash always worked best as a character when he had others to bounce off of.

To be honest his friends drag him into stuff he has no interest in like contests, showcases, etc. I feel in Sinnoh Ash shouldn’t have watched Dawn compete in contests. I feel Ash could have beaten Tobias had he spent time training instead of cheering Dawn on in contests. Plus I feel Ash holds his friends back from achieving their goals. I saw an article where it said Ash’s companions get stronger once they leave him.

 

[Palamon]

To be honest, not really? I enjoyed it enough. While I found the ending...disappointing, I definitely liked it more than some of the godawful filler in Sinnoh and the Johto sagas. But, tbh, I'm bias and pretty much like everything, so. Some of the Journeys Saga definitely dragged and was a bit repetitive, but it didn't really bog it down for me all that much.

 

[FelipePR]

There were a fair amount of complaints towards the series even during its run, but that isn't quite the same thing as being controversial or divisive among fans, especially in a fanbase like Pokemon. The Kalos League backlash was pretty huge, but I don't think it had a negative impact on XY's overall reception, at least from what I saw during and after that stretch of the series.

XY seems to be a slightly atypical case. Well, as far as I understand, the series was initially very well received, especially by Western audiences. In part, I believe this happened because BW was one of the most disheartening series for fans of the franchise in general. However, as you mentioned, the series gradually received criticism during its run, especially regarding the treatment and development of Ash and Serena, as well as the issue of the Kalos League.

Personally, I have the impression that, in general, the Pokémon series that received the least criticism was DP, or the Original series, despite the ongoing criticism of their approach to the Pokémon League.

NOTE: The DP series also suffers from the misfortune of marking the farewell of the most incredible Pokégírl to set foot in this universe, who, by accompanying Ash, has left an indelible mark on our hearts. But for some good reason, few seem to take this into account. Lol.

 

[Daren]

Personally, I have the impression that, in general, the Pokémon series that received the least criticism was DP, or the Original series, despite the ongoing criticism of their approach to the Pokémon League.

I think it depends on if you mean contemporarily or in retrospect; DP actually got a lot of criticism when it was the current series.

Honestl,y I think AG is the series I see criticized the least but also doesn't get praised as much as some of the others. I guess there aren't too many things people see as a major problem but also fewer shining points so it's mostly seen as competently done and notable for setting the style the show would follow until XY ended.

 

[FelipePR]

Honestl,y I think AG is the series I see criticized the least but also doesn't get praised as much as some of the others. I guess there aren't too many things people see as a major problem but also fewer shining points so it's mostly seen as competently done and notable for setting the style the show would follow until XY ended.

I don't know if I agree, I think that, initially, AG was one of the most criticized series in the franchise and the one that received the most hate simply due to the proposed changes and, perhaps, the slow start. At least in my personal circle, I'm sure there was, initially, a lot of disdain and disinterest towards the series.

Nowadays, I think this is the least watched series in the franchise, as it is older, not counting the entire original saga, and does not have the nostalgic appeal of this one, hence the little criticism and praise. However, in my opinion, this does not adequately represent how divisive the series is or was.

Still, in this forum, I've had to deal, sometimes, with literal hate for characters from this saga, something I haven't found a parallel to except for the treatment occasionally directed at Goh.

I think it depends on if you mean contemporarily or in retrospect; DP actually got a lot of criticism when it was the current series.

At the time I certainly wasn't as involved with the Pokémon community as I have been more recently, but within my personal circle and from what I saw in the media and internet I never had that vision or impression, quite the opposite.

 

[-PokemonBattleFanatic-]

AG has always been treated as run of the mill or underrated. Not the best or the worst just somewhere in the middle whether it be involving the gym battles, Ash's team or the pokemon league. The biggest complaints I've seen are Max and Ash not having a rival throughout most of Hoenn.

 

[Hidden Mew]

To be honest his friends drag him into stuff he has no interest in like contests, showcases, etc. I feel in Sinnoh Ash shouldn’t have watched Dawn compete in contests. I feel Ash could have beaten Tobias had he spent time training instead of cheering Dawn on in contests. Plus I feel Ash holds his friends back from achieving their goals. I saw an article where it said Ash’s companions get stronger once they leave him.

I think that's a pretty terrible way of looking at Ash supporting his friends. It feels especially strange to claim that Ash would have won the Sinnoh League if he didn't cheer Dawn on in Contests when they frequently inspired each other throughout DP. Dawn's Contests weren't a distraction for Ash. That was a major storyline and was treated just as important as Ash's Gym battles. Ash choosing to train instead of watching Dawn's Contests wouldn't have made a significant difference either. Ash would often train during May's Contests in AG, even during the first Grand Festival, and he still lost in the Hoenn League. Honestly, Ash choosing his own training over being there to support May always felt out of character to me, especially when he'd rather head towards the next Gym instead of her Contest. The problem wasn't Dawn, but that they weren't willing to let Ash win the Sinnoh League for whatever reason.

I don't think Ash's friends getting stronger once they leave means that he's holding them back from their goals either. That's just a way to show the audience that they've made progress off-screen. Plus, I wouldn't say that Misty in AG, the SM cast or Dawn in Journeys come off as significantly stronger. Even Iris becoming the Unova Champion off-screen felt more like the writers desperately trying to make her a closer fit to her video game counterpart as opposed to being proof that being with Ash held her back.

I think it depends on if you mean contemporarily or in retrospect; DP actually got a lot of criticism when it was the current series.

Honestl,y I think AG is the series I see criticized the least but also doesn't get praised as much as some of the others. I guess there aren't too many things people see as a major problem but also fewer shining points so it's mostly seen as competently done and notable for setting the style the show would follow until XY ended.

Yeah, I do remember a fair bit of criticism towards DP during its run. As much as people praise it now, I don't think people liked its pacing. I'll still see people on occasion say that there was a lot of filler in it, especially in the year between Ash's seventh and eighth badges, but it really wasn't more so than other series or sagas in that regard.

I think AG doesn't get as much attention because there are other series that cover its storyline more effectively. Dawn's Contests were much better than May's and she has a more engaging storyline. XY had a better sibling relationship with Clemont and Bonnie and Bonnie herself was a much better take on a main character who wasn't a trainer. I'd argue that even Chloe in Journeys is a better take on a main character who didn't care for Pokemon initially. Aside from one line in the first episode and preferring to travel over Pokemon, May doesn't really have any issue with being a trainer or having a Pokemon. It felt like the show was telling the audience that May didn't like Pokemon rather than show it. Chloe growing to like Pokemon was gradual and it made her becoming a trainer more satisfiying in a way because of that buildup.

AG is still a good series. It has some good battles. It's hard to capture just how refreshing it was for Ash to start over with a brand new team at the time when that became the default for every future series, but it really felt like a new start for the anime at the time. May was still likable. There were some hilarious filler episodes. The Hoenn League was pretty good, possibly the last non-controversial League for Ash. But when other series stand out more for better or for worse, it's hard to make AG really get more attention.

 

[Daren]

AG is still a good series. It has some good battles. It's hard to capture just how refreshing it was for Ash to start over with a brand new team at the time when that became the default for every future series, but it really felt like a new start for the anime at the time. May was still likable. There were some hilarious filler episodes. The Hoenn League was pretty good, possibly the last non-controversial League for Ash. But when other series stand out more for better or for worse, it's hard to make AG really get more attention.

At the time AG was very bold for how much it shook things up, but pretty much all of those changes becoming the default makes it feel like the "safest" series now, in the some way some classic film or literature now feel formulaic, despite being what popularized the formula; the only thing in AG that especially stands out now was Ash winning the Battle Frontier and defeating Legendary Pokémon for the first time (something later series' decided to mostly back away from), and even winning the BF wasn't entirely new since the OS had him winning the Orange League--I actually remember people assumed DP would have a post-league victory arc as well at one point.

That said I think there's a underrated quality to AG not really doing anything disastrously wrong other than maybe the Aqua/Magma conclusion and that was never as controversial as the leagues or B/W's changes. There's a certain charm to a workmanlike product with no major faults when compared to a rollercoaster that has some incredible highs but also crushing lows.

 

[Hidden Mew]

At the time AG was very bold for how much it shook things up, but pretty much all of those changes becoming the default makes it feel like the "safest" series now, in the some way some classic film or literature now feel formulaic, despite being what popularized the formula; the only thing in AG that especially stands out now was Ash winning the Battle Frontier and defeating Legendary Pokémon for the first time (something later series' decided to mostly back away from), and even winning the BF wasn't entirely new since the OS had him winning the Orange League--I actually remember people assumed DP would have a post-league victory arc as well at one point.

I definitely remember people wanting another Battle Frontier arc too. I can understand why people thought we'd get that or a post-victory arc. Ash defeating Paul in the Sinnoh League finals wasn't a guarantee, but it felt a lot more plausible at the time given how important their rivalry was. All things considered, I'm glad that they didn't do another Battle Frontier arc. While I think that Ash should get more credit for winning the Battle Frontier, the arc itself was so rushed. They had to cram so many battles for both Ash and May in just a little over a year. Doing the same thing with DP would have been terrible. Having one journey for DP instead of trying to do multiple ones like both the OS and AG did really helped DP in the long run too.

That said I think there's a underrated quality to AG not really doing anything disastrously wrong other than maybe the Aqua/Magma conclusion and that was never as controversial as the leagues or B/W's changes. There's a certain charm to a workmanlike product with no major faults when compared to a rollercoaster that has some incredible highs but also crushing lows.

I forgot about the Aqua/Magma conclusion. Even at the time, I thought it was bizarre that these two teams were able to get a hold of Legendary Pokemon out of nowhere. I don't think that they handle that storyline well at all, but it's easier to excuse that when that was their first time adapting more events from the games' storyline. They skipped a lot of Team Rocket stuff from R/B and G/S. AG is still a pretty good series. Some of it hasn't aged as well for me, mainly May's Contests, but it's still one of my favorite series.

 

[FelipePR]

I'd argue that even Chloe in Journeys is a better take on a main character who didn't care for Pokemon initially. Aside from one line in the first episode and preferring to travel over Pokemon, May doesn't really have any issue with being a trainer or having a Pokemon. It felt like the show was telling the audience that May didn't like Pokemon rather than show it. Chloe growing to like Pokemon was gradual and it made her becoming a trainer more satisfiying in a way because of that buildup.

I wonder what May's introduction is like in the original, in Japanese? Is there really such a line? It is clear from watching the cartoon that May has nothing against Pokémon (I mean, besides the tentacool incident), she is just not very interested in them and her preferences and priorities, at least initially, tend elsewhere.

On the other hand, I don't know if I can agree with your comparison because although they may have been named similarly, I have the impression that their issues are actually quite distinct, as are the characters itself.
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May is a girl who lives in an area surrounded by nature and Pokémon, in addition to his father being a gym leader and his brother being a Pokémon geek. Since her childhood she has been surrounded by Pokémon and grow up in a family extremely fond of them, It would therefore be quite unusual if she really felt uncomfortable around them.

Besides, May, like Ash, has a very instinctive and emotional nature, and not a very rationale one. It is not to be expected, therefore, that she over problematized her issues, but rather confront them with her guts.

But, personally, I don't think that she really have an issue with Pokémon, the girl just seems to believe that people, especially her family, overvalue these creatures and that there are more interesting and relevant things out there. However, in her journey, she soon realize that somethings that she initially values are often more superfluous than the things she denies.
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Chloe on the other hand is an overly cautious and insecure person, who has difficulty understanding herself and opening up to others and therefore appears distant and indifferent, when she's not truly like that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chloe is portrayed as a big city, or a modern one, girl who lives in a reality where there isn't as much contact with nature and deep social relationships seem scarcer.

Their parents are Pokémon researchers, but she seems not to be so familiar with Pokémon which puts a social strain on her as her peers believe she should follow her parents' path while she is trying to understand what she wants and who she is.
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Chloe's journey revolves, in my understanding, primarily around self-discovery, as she embarks on a transformative adventure alongside her Pokémon. On the other hand, May's path is centered on exploring the vast wonders of the Pokémon World and finding her place within it.