So is Journeys the Worst Series Ever?

[SatoSerefan5229]

It's a morally grey topic. Some people would want Horizons to not have Ash appear because they've had enough of him after 25 years of little progress, but others are so upset that he was replaced that they want Ash to appear in Horizons, even if just as a cameo. I would think they'll only bring him back if ratings for Horizons suddenly drop, and the writers want an easy stunt, which is probably why the previous series had an open-ended finale.

But I feel it was a huge mistake to leave Ash’s ending open-ended. There’s nothing left for him. He’s reached the top of the mountain.

 

[Hidden Mew]

The anime had been on the edge since the infamous Kalos League. Even here in the Bulbagarden forums, most of us were so jaded over that loss that our question for the Alola League was "Who will beat Ash?", even after leaks of his victory came. I personally think the writers only had Ash win the Alola League to keep the anime from being cancelled in disgrace.

But regardless, the damage is done. The anime's reputation has been shattered by the Kalos League, and some former fans have lost faith in the writers, especially thanks to some SM and JN episodes having terrible writing. Replacing Ash, Pikachu, and Team Rocket with a new set of protagonists and antagonists is probably another way to regain their reputation, but whether it would work in the long run remains to be seen. I wouldn't call Horizons the "worst" yet, as we're just 41 episodes in as of this post, and it's only slightly better than Journeys, and there's a chance Ash and Pikachu could return (if mainly to boost ratings). We just have to see...

As frustrating as the Kalos League was, I really don't think that it would have led to the anime being cancelled if Ash hadn't won the Alola League. I don't know the ratings for SM, but I doubt that they were that bad or if that would have mattered that much for a merchandise driven series. I'm not sure if replacing the cast is another way for the writers to regain their reputation, although I can understand that interpretation more. Aside from long time fans still bitter over the Kalos League, I don't think that the writers' reputation was still that low by the time Journeys started.

With the franchise strong enough that we see occasional animated shorts, a live-action film, music videos, and RL events, do we need this anime anymore?

I would say yes because none of those other media help to keep the franchise in the public sphere or are able to tie in more directly with current games like the anime does. There are some good mini series out there, but I don't think most of them really catch much attention. I don't think most people cared much for Paldean Winds, or I assume that is the case given how it just came and went without much reactions. Detective Pikachu was a good movie, but I don't see much praise for it either. Music videos and RL events can be cool. But having new episodes nearly every week is a pretty easy way to keep eyes on the franchise, especially when it has been going on for decades. Aside from maybe the Detective Pikachu movie, none of these other form of media or promotion really gather as much attention as the anime does.

Ironically Ash returning would cause the ratings to tank. I feel fans were sick & tired of Ash. That doesn’t mean they hate Ash, they felt fatigue set in with him.

That was the case for some fans sure, but definitely not for everyone. Plenty of people love Ash and there were quite a few people upset with him being replaced. It feels a bit much to assume that Ash's appearance would cause the ratings to tank. I can't say if he'd be a big boost in the ratings, but I can't say for certain either way because it hasn't happened yet.

But I feel it was a huge mistake to leave Ash’s ending open-ended. There’s nothing left for him. He’s reached the top of the mountain.

Except he specificially said that he hadn't reached his true goal of being a Pokemon Master. Being a World Champion trainer is still an impressive accomplishment, but I don't think that means he can't lose to anyone else or have any other kinds of challenges. I can understand wanting something more definitive for Ash's sendoff, but at the same time, I think that leaving it open ended is pretty fitting for both Ash's personality and the anime's tone in general. He loves to travel, so of course Ash would continue to have adventures and make friends along the way off-screen. It's probably also an easy way for the writers to bring him back whenever they want to, but I still think it works more than if they gave him a more definitive ending.

 

[SatoSerefan5229]

That was the case for some fans sure, but definitely not for everyone. Plenty of people love Ash and there were quite a few people upset with him being replaced. It feels a bit much to assume that Ash's appearance would cause the ratings to tank. I can't say if he'd be a big boost in the ratings, but I can't say for certain either way because it hasn't happened yet.

But after the crappy writing in both SM & JN, it’s best Ash doesn’t return in Horizons.

Except he specificially said that he hadn't reached his true goal of being a Pokemon Master. Being a World Champion trainer is still an impressive accomplishment, but I don't think that means he can't lose to anyone else or have any other kinds of challenges. I can understand wanting something more definitive for Ash's sendoff, but at the same time, I think that leaving it open ended is pretty fitting for both Ash's personality and the anime's tone in general. He loves to travel, so of course Ash would continue to have adventures and make friends along the way off-screen. It's probably also an easy way for the writers to bring him back whenever they want to, but I still think it works more than if they gave him a more definitive ending.

Ash reached the top of the mountain beating Leon. The fall from the top would be much harder than the climb for Ash. Plus I know for a fact Ash would beat and humiliate both Nemona and Geeta even at their best. I feel Ash should give up on becoming a Pokemon master and instead become a teacher for kids who want to become trainers just like him but aren’t 10 years old yet however they would be 8-9 years old. He can teach what he learned on his adventures to a new generation of trainers.

 

[Hidden Mew]

But after the crappy writing in both SM & JN, it’s best Ash doesn’t return in Horizons.

I didn't think that the writing in SM and Journeys was that bad. Journeys was more frustrating than anything else for me. Even if you do think that the writing in those series were bad, that wouldn't necessarily guarantee that Ash's return in Horizons would be poorly written as well.

Ash reached the top of the mountain beating Leon. The fall from the top would be much harder than the climb for Ash. Plus I know for a fact Ash would beat and humiliate both Nemona and Geeta even at their best. I feel Ash should give up on becoming a Pokemon master and instead become a teacher for kids who want to become trainers just like him but aren’t 10 years old yet however they would be 8-9 years old. He can teach what he learned on his adventures to a new generation of trainers.

Considering that Ash hasn't battled any Paldea Pokemon, being so confident that he'd humiliate Nemona and Geeta feels like a bit much to me. I still can't really see Ash being at the top of the mountain by beating Leon. He is a World Champion trainer, but that doesn't mean he couldn't find other challenging trainers to battle. Since the anime by design has to retcon new characters, regions and Pokemon, it's kind of hard for me to see winning the WPC to be that big of a deal in a way. Plus, as I have often said, Ash himself still doesn't think that he has reached his goal. His goal wasn't to become a Champion, but to become a Pokemon Master.

I can't really see Ash giving up on becoming a Pokemon Master. That's one of his main defining characteristics. Giving up on that goal would be incredibly out of character. I can see the appeal of Ash becoming a teacher, even though I think he'd be more of an unconventional teacher, but I don't think he'd give up traveling to become a Pokemon Master in favor of teaching other kids what he has learned.

 

[SatoSerefan5229]

I didn't think that the writing in SM and Journeys was that bad. Journeys was more frustrating than anything else for me. Even if you do think that the writing in those series were bad, that wouldn't necessarily guarantee that Ash's return in Horizons would be poorly written as well.


Considering that Ash hasn't battled any Paldea Pokemon, being so confident that he'd humiliate Nemona and Geeta feels like a bit much to me. I still can't really see Ash being at the top of the mountain by beating Leon. He is a World Champion trainer, but that doesn't mean he couldn't find other challenging trainers to battle. Since the anime by design has to retcon new characters, regions and Pokemon, it's kind of hard for me to see winning the WPC to be that big of a deal in a way. Plus, as I have often said, Ash himself still doesn't think that he has reached his goal. His goal wasn't to become a Champion, but to become a Pokemon Master.

I can't really see Ash giving up on becoming a Pokemon Master. That's one of his main defining characteristics. Giving up on that goal would be incredibly out of character. I can see the appeal of Ash becoming a teacher, even though I think he'd be more of an unconventional teacher, but I don't think he'd give up traveling to become a Pokemon Master in favor of teaching other kids what he has learned.

Look. Ash is never going to be a Pokemon master. If he wants to do so, he has to catch every Pokemon known to exist, something he will never ever do. He's chasing an impossible dream. He has better chances of being murdered than becoming a Pokemon master. The reason I say he must capture every Pokemon is because that's how it is in the game even after nearly 3 decades.

 

[BeautifulSylveon]

While Horizons isn’t 1 year old yet, I think Journeys handled relatability way better. I do think that "a facial expression tells more than a that’s-me or a what’s-wrong-about-me speech".

Today, I remembered the Sobble evolution episode. The relatability comes mostly from Drizzile’s attitude, due to the episode being about it and not about Goh. To me, the latter comes off to me more as an "audience surrogacy" than a so-you’re-like-that-it’s-very-interesting exposition you generally have in Horizons. Goh’s scene is literally a "I know how you feel, I already experienced that" one.

While Goh isn’t well-liked for having too much of the spotlight, I really like his relatability (either by being relatable by himself or serving as an audience surrogate like the aforementioned episode) vibes, more than Liko’s.

Even though there were so-you’re-like-that-it’s-very-interesting expositions, it’s way less insiting than Horizons.

 

[RetroPokeFan]

Why does Ash need to capture every Pokémon to be a Pokémon Master though? I mean we already saw Goh catching a whole bunch of them in Journeys and they mostly just stayed at Cerise's lab contributing about as much as a rusty old tin can rolling down a street so it'd just be the exact same scenario in Ash's case. And besides not only are there tons more Pokémon introduced in every new region but I doubt poor Professor Oak could handle that many mons in his lab anyway.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Look. Ash is never going to be a Pokemon master. If he wants to do so, he has to catch every Pokemon known to exist, something he will never ever do. He's chasing an impossible dream. He has better chances of being murdered than becoming a Pokemon master. The reason I say he must capture every Pokemon is because that's how it is in the game even after nearly 3 decades.

But players aren't considered a Pokemon Master by catching every Pokemon in the games. You complete the Pokedex, you get a nice in-game certificate for your accomplishment and you'll get other rewards like the Shiny Charm, but I don't think that the term Pokemon Master has been brought up in the games. The anime never really clarified what a Pokemon Master really is. The closest was Ash wanting to befriend every Pokemon, which isn't the same thing as catching every single Pokemon. The fact that Ash is catching an impossible dream is also kind of the point. It's supposed to show off how determined he is.

 

[SatoSerefan5229]

But players aren't considered a Pokemon Master by catching every Pokemon in the games. You complete the Pokedex, you get a nice in-game certificate for your accomplishment and you'll get other rewards like the Shiny Charm, but I don't think that the term Pokemon Master has been brought up in the games. The anime never really clarified what a Pokemon Master really is. The closest was Ash wanting to befriend every Pokemon, which isn't the same thing as catching every single Pokemon. The fact that Ash is catching an impossible dream is also kind of the point. It's supposed to show off how determined he is.

Still I feel the anime got stale with Ash around after Kalos. No offense but I felt Ash held the anime back from being more creative.

 

[SlipperytheTotodile]

Honestly I haven't watched it in a while but I remember it being meh

 

[Daren]

but I don't think that the term Pokemon Master has been brought up in the games.

It's used at least once; in Red/Blue/Yellow (and I think FR/LG), Lance calls you one after you defeat him. I'm not sure if it ever appeared in the games outside of that (and possibly manuals or the back of boxes), though.

 

[Hidden Mew]

It's used at least once; in Red/Blue/Yellow (and I think FR/LG), Lance calls you one after you defeat him. I'm not sure if it ever appeared in the games outside of that (and possibly manuals or the back of boxes), though.

I wasn't sure if it was used in the first generation games, but that would make sense. I don't know if that is accurate to the Japanese version or not, but it doesn't sound like completing the Pokedex has anything to do with becoming a Pokemon Master in the games if that is the case.

 

[a230]

I've grown with Ash, from the first to last epsiode. I've watch every single episodes more than twice(except the BW anime, it was a shame). Like a lot of kids from the 90's, Ash help me realize what true friendship was, what never giving up was . I've grown with those two qualities thanks to him. I still know what a true Friendship is and that you should never give up, even so nobody believe in you. I'm going to have my children listen to this show one day, in order to instill in them the values that this show taught me. That is not something Horizon is doing right now. At least, last time I watch an episode.


This show made it possible to appreciate Pokémon that would not have been appreciated otherwise. It brought sprites to life at a time when video games did not allow it.
Yes, the 7th and 8th generation weren't very good. They decided to change the drawing style and unfortunately it wasn't for the better. Plus they seemed to no longer know what to do with Team Rocket. Which is sad because I loved this trio.

Of course this show wasn't perfect, but it represent the childhood and teenage of more than one generation.

 

[skynerel]

Still I feel the anime got stale with Ash around after Kalos. No offense but I felt Ash held the anime back from being more creative.

I don’t think Ash was the problem in the anime. The problem was the people in charge who wanted to keep the character around with no character development and any development he got always got butchered since the BW era. The people who want Ash around just want so for nostalgia since it’s clear that there’s no intention from the show runners to give the character more depth, let alone closure. They are so much against that idea that they turned “Pokemon Master” into an impossible goal just to make sure that even if he returns, his goal is not complete, just to have a lazy excuse to keep him around. I don’t get wanting to watch the journey of a character who never gets to the final destination. Obviously, Ash becoming World Champion is a form of closure for those of us who finally wanted to see him win a tournament, but I don’t buy for a second that the original meaning of “pokemon master” was to “befriend” all pokemon. Across different pokemon media (games, manga etc.) there are various hints or meanings, as you can see in this bulbagarden article.

Pokémon Master - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

I much rather have the following definition of pokemon master to be true “According to The Electric Tale of Pikachu manga, a Pokémon Master is simply an elite Trainer who is considered a professional and regularly takes part in Pokémon League competitions.”
It makes much more sense and explains better why Ash participated in this competitions in the first place.

 

[Vengeful Ghost]

To be honest Ash is better off on his own. I feel he would focus more by himself. Plus he should not go to school.

This is all you needed to say. You didn’t need to manufacture reasons why Arven, Nemona, and Penny wouldn’t be good companions for Ash. Everything you say indicates you are bending over backwards to justify your vision for him:

• Your reading of Arven as a hot head who Ash won’t get along with not only ignores Ash’s history with plenty of fellow hotheads like Misty and even May to an extent. You also ignore Arven’s entire character arc just to make this point.
• Your reading of Penny as a traitor whom Ash shouldn’t trust ignores her character arc as one who is so loyal that she takes the blame for her own friends’ chaos.
• Your reading of Nemona makes Ash come off as the uncharitable one oddly. You act as if Ash only cares about people’s strength. That’s not Ash. That’s pre-character development Paul.

Look, I get you want an Ash solo story. Just don’t manufacture reasons this poor.

Ash will never catch every Pokemon so he’s never becoming a Pokemon master. Plus the people Ash lost to in leagues were lone wolves so Ash realizes he has to achieve his goal all by himself with only his Pokemon.

This is called survivorship bias, and you are misattributing cause to traits without drawing any connection between them. For every lone wolf trainer Ash lost to, we have plenty of examples of those who lost to him: many PWC competitors, Sawyer, Paul, and Trip just to name a few.

 

[FelipePR]

I wasn't sure if it was used in the first generation games, but that would make sense. I don't know if that is accurate to the Japanese version or not, but it doesn't sound like completing the Pokedex has anything to do with becoming a Pokemon Master in the games if that is the case.

It seems that the definition of what a Pokémon Master has, according to Bulbapedia, changed several times during the franchise's initial years.

• In Red, Blue, Yellow, FireRed, and LeafGreen, after defeating Lance he says "I hate to admit it, but you are a POKéMON master!".
• In Gold, Silver, and Crystal, after defeating all the Electrode in the Team Rocket HQ, Lance says "The journey to becoming the Pokémon Master is long and difficult. Knowing that, will you keep going?"
• The Official Pokémon Handbook states that a Trainer would deserve the title of Pokémon Master upon defeating or catching Mewtwo. The handbook also refers to the Elite Four members as "Master Trainers".
• According to A Sneak Peek at Pokémon, one of the tasks to become a Pokémon Master is to catch all Pokémon.
• The book Charizard, Go! states that a Pokémon Master must catch one of every kind of Pokémon and become a member of the Pokémon League.
• According to The Electric Tale of Pikachu manga, a Pokémon Master is simply an elite Trainer who is considered a professional and regularly takes part in Pokémon League competitions.

Ultimately, the Pokémon Company's definitive position is that questions of this nature do not have a definitive answer, and are up to the personal interpretation of each trainer and how they are seen by their peers.

"I'm very sorry, but the Pokémon Company does not answer questions of this nature. It is the intent of the Pokémon creators that such questions be left to the imaginations and interpretations of Pokémon fans, adding more excitement and mystery to the Pokémon universe."

In short, it seems to me that Pokémon Master is not an official title, but rather a pronoun that can be used to refer to trainers that you hold in high regard.

 

[Karakuri18]

This is all you needed to say. You didn’t need to manufacture reasons why Arven, Nemona, and Penny wouldn’t be good companions for Ash.

They could not become Satoshi's companions because they have the status of rivals.

 

[Greninjaman]

They could not become Satoshi's companions because they have the status of rivals.

So? May is a rival (if the player picks Brendan) and she still joined him. The same thing applies to Serena.
Edit: Plus, out of the three (Arven, Nemona, & Penny), Nemona is the only one that can be considered a rival.

 

[Vengeful Ghost]

They could not become Satoshi's companions because they have the status of rivals.

This series has bent the roles and characterizations of multiple game characters in the past. I think we’re long past the point of arguing “they had this role in the game, so it’s set in stone”

 

[Karakuri18]

So? May is a rival (if the player picks Brendan) and she still joined him. The same thing applies to Serena.

Here it's something different. They did not only have the status of rivals, they were also protags in their games.
I will also add that their anime versions were not related to fighting like Satoshi.