SPOILERS: Demo Datamine Discussion

[Uhane]

Any theory/alternative/solution to "all the cores are Red in game" is welcome in my opinion. Masuda is still probably wading through all the hate mail I sent when they coloured the Lure Ball Green in HGSS.

@Esserie; 's theory is also backed up by the anime.

While both Squishy and Z2 have at some stage been shown in all formes, Squishy most of the time goes around as a Core and then turns into 10 percent (only reaching 50 percent once, right at the end) and Z2 is almost always seen directly in 50 percent form, when it first appeared in the series opening XY094 in Terminus Cave it was already in 50 percent form, and when it appeared in the most recent episode, Squishy was briefly 10 percent,and then a core, Z2 was 50 percent the whole time. Both times there was no suggestion it had just used Power Construct

 

[Alola]

252+ Atk Druddigon Z-Move* vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 339-399 (99.4 - 117%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 304-358 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

The power difference isn't noticeable, trust me. There's nothing you can do to make something like Druddigon comparable with something like Mega Salamence unless you give it its own Mega or a new Forme or something.

*If you're wondering how I ran the calc, I gave Druddigon a 200 base power Dragon type move. In the demo, Nuzzle (20 BP) changes to a 100 BP Gigavolt Havoc, and Thunderbolt (90 BP) changes to 175 BP, so I'm assuming the boost is approximately +80 BP, meaning that Outrage probably results in an ~200 BP Dragon type Z-Move.

Of course a Double Edge coming off an Aerilate and 145 base Attack stat would be stronger than Druddigon's Dragon Z-Move. That's an unfair comparison and not what I was comparing in my original post.

To reiterate, what I said is that a Dragon Z-Move from a Druddigon would be stronger, with a base stat somewhere around 200 as you pointed out, than a Mega Salamence's (because as a Mega Evolution, it can't use Z-moves).

Case in point:
252+ Atk Druddigon Z-Move* vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 339-399 (99.4 - 117%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

vs

252+ Atk Mega Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 213-252 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[CharizardMen99]

Yeah that was a leak as well as S.S. Anne returning.

Well...this thing was said by masuda if im right

 

[Ablaze]

Well...this thing was said by masuda if im right

Whoa, when? Can you give a source?
I really want this to happen.

 

[Boss1708]

Well...this thing was said by masuda if im right

Whoa, when? Can you give a source?
I really want this to happen.

He hasn´t said such a thing. He hasn´t said anything about the SS Anne. Unless I somehow didn´t notice it.

 

[Esserise]

He hasn´t said such a thing. He hasn´t said anything about the SS Anne. Unless I somehow didn´t notice it.

I do recall him saying the thing about older characters returning (although I don't think he specified anybody in particular), but no, you're right, he has said jack-squat about the S.S. Anne.

Found it; it's from that Burning Questions interview you posted before:

> Masuda: There are some other characters that may show up and may be recognized by fans of the previous games. So there's some characters recurring, and maybe they show up with a different look than they had before.

 

[MallowBloomDoom]

Well...this thing was said by masuda if im right

Interesting so most likely that's also true for that leak maybe just a cameo!

 

[tioeduardo27]

I'm pretty sure he was referring to Dexio and Sina.

 

[Esserise]

I'm pretty sure he was referring to Dexio and Sina.

Sure, but I doubt that those two are going to be the extent of the returning characters.

 

[UB-01 Kenobi]

Of course a Double Edge coming off an Aerilate and 145 base Attack stat would be stronger than Druddigon's Dragon Z-Move. That's an unfair comparison and not what I was comparing in my original post.

To reiterate, what I said is that a Dragon Z-Move from a Druddigon would be stronger, with a base stat somewhere around 200 as you pointed out, than a Mega Salamence's (because as a Mega Evolution, it can't use Z-moves).

Case in point:
252+ Atk Druddigon Z-Move* vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 339-399 (99.4 - 117%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

vs

252+ Atk Mega Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 213-252 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I disagree, considering that Mega Salamence does not use Dragon type moves. It is more unfair to compare the literal strongest possible move in Druddigon's arsenal to a move so suboptimal that Mega Salamence does not even run it on competitive sets. That's like saying "Magikarp is stronger than Arceus because a max attack 1HP Magikarp Flail is stronger than Arceus's Rock Smash."

252+ Atk Magikarp Flail (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 79-94 (23.1 - 27.5%) -- 71.8% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Arceus Rock Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 45-54 (13.1 - 15.8%) -- possible 7HKO

Feel free to go to Smogon and check - out of every single one of Salamence's sets in every single tier it is viable in, not one of them uses Outrage. The only dragon type moves you'll see are Dragon Tail on the defensive sets (which is irrelevant to a raw power comparison) and Draco Meteor on mixed attacking sets. And check this out:

252 SpA Mega Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 201-237 (58.9 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Druddigon Special Z-Move* vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 210-247 (61.5 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Literallt only a 3% difference. That's, like, 1/4 of a Stealth rock switch in. Negligible.

*gave it a special Dragon attack with 210 BP because Draco is 130 BP

 

[Arceus the Dragon]

I disagree, considering that Mega Salamence does not use Dragon type moves.

What do you mean? Of course it uses Dragon moves. It has Dragon Claw and others at it's disposal. It wouldn't be Dragon type if it didn't use Dragon moves. Unless you are talking about Dragon Z move. But it can use it if it doesn't use mega stone.

 

[PocketMonster]

I dunno. Somehow, I don´t think that limiting Pokemon players and other handheld users to "buy my expensive Switch hybrid console, or don´t play Pokemon!" starategy would make much sense. I think Nintendo will be intelligent enough to also create a cheaper, handheld- only console, like they have ALWAYS done since the original GameBoy.

That, or they will just continue to support the 3DS family by making games also for it. For example, Gen VIII comes out, and the games are available for Switch, and there is also a 3DS port with inferior graphics, but the exact same content.

I mean, you guys know for how long the PS2 was supported. If I remember correctly, PS4 was out, and PS2 ports of games were still made xD (for reference, the last PS2 game was FIFA 2014. It was available for PS2, PS3 and PS4)!

yeah but wasn't PS Sony?
I hope you are right though, because i hate buying new consoles. Esp if i need to get an upgrade to play sun/moon. I heard an nintendo representative was not completely clear if the 3ds will support sun/moon or not. I guess i could see if GameStop will accept a trade in to knock the price down for the new 3ds.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

I'm pretty sure he was referring to Dexio and Sina.

I think he's implying there are more cameos than just them, and I'm hoping so. Still hoping to see the queen herself, Champion Cynthia. Maybe she's dressed in her outfit from BW season 2.

 

[Vyrron]

Esp if i need to get an upgrade to play sun/moon. I heard an nintendo representative was not completely clear if the 3ds will support sun/moon or not. I guess i could see if GameStop will accept a trade in to knock the price down for the new 3ds.

Umm, all 3DS systems will support Sun and Moon. They were never vague about it.

 

[jman21]

Any idea if chain fishing and horde encounters are making a come back?

 

[UB-01 Kenobi]

What do you mean? Of course it uses Dragon moves. It has Dragon Claw and others at it's disposal. It wouldn't be Dragon type if it didn't use Dragon moves. Unless you are talking about Dragon Z move. But it can use it if it doesn't use mega stone.

It CAN use Dragon moves, yes. But when people from Smogon use Mega Salamence on a competitive team, most of the time they use these moves:

-Dragon Dance
-Double Edge
-Earthquake
-Roost/Refresh/Substitute

Other times, they use moves like Fire Blast, Return, Body Slam, Dragon Tail, Hyper Voice, Draco Meteor, etcetera.

But at Smogon, we basically never use Outrage or Dragon Claw, because we can hit just about any Pokemon that those moves hit with either Aerilate Double Edge or a super effective Earthquake.

 

[Alola]

That's like saying "Magikarp is stronger than Arceus because a max attack 1HP Magikarp Flail is stronger than Arceus's Rock Smash."

No it's not, because Magikarp and Arceus are two different types of Pokemon, with your example having them using non-STAB moves that aren't even the same move. Lol that's completely different from the comparison @Eggseggseggseggs made.

I disagree, considering that Mega Salamence does not use Dragon type moves. It is more unfair to compare the literal strongest possible move in Druddigon's arsenal to a move so suboptimal that Mega Salamence does not even run it on competitive sets. That's like saying "Magikarp is stronger than Arceus because a max attack 1HP Magikarp Flail is stronger than Arceus's Rock Smash."

252+ Atk Magikarp Flail (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 79-94 (23.1 - 27.5%) -- 71.8% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Arceus Rock Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 45-54 (13.1 - 15.8%) -- possible 7HKO

Feel free to go to Smogon and check - out of every single one of Salamence's sets in every single tier it is viable in, not one of them uses Outrage. The only dragon type moves you'll see are Dragon Tail on the defensive sets (which is irrelevant to a raw power comparison) and Draco Meteor on mixed attacking sets. And check this out:

252 SpA Mega Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 201-237 (58.9 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Druddigon Special Z-Move* vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 210-247 (61.5 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Literallt only a 3% difference. That's, like, 1/4 of a Stealth rock switch in. Negligible.

*gave it a special Dragon attack with 210 BP because Draco is 130 BP

Now we're discussing two separate things. You're completely missing my original point and have taken it in a spectacularly different direction-I don't care about Mega Salemence's fan submitted move-sets or that it doesn't have Outrage as a competitive move in said set. And I'm not looking at this from a competitive angle.

@Eggseggseggseggs and I were originally discussing the aspect of now having more incentive to use your favorite Pokemon due to the power they can unleash with Z-Moves (rather than using stronger, but more common, Pokemon). Druddigon and Mega Salamence were brought up as examples, rightly or wrongly, to demonstrate that-that yes, if a Druddigon uses a Dragon Z-Move, it will have more base power (and potential power overall) than any dragon move a Mega Salamence would use, by virtue of Mega Salamence not being able to use Z-moves. A common player may not feel as bad about using Druddigon in-game because of this. Or any other Pokemon-there are many examples. That's it. They were not meant to be compared as you so meticulously have.

There isn't anything wrong with what you're saying. I just don't think you're understanding nor empathizing with my point. If you still don't get it, then is my main take-away: Z-moves allow for a lot of damage from many Pokemon that were previously unable to unleash such power. And you can't refute that.

 

[UB-01 Kenobi]

There isn't anything wrong with what you're saying. I just don't think you're understanding nor empathizing with my point. If you still don't get it, then is my main take-away: Z-moves allow for a lot of damage from many Pokemon that were previously unable to unleash such power. And you can't refute that.

I can certainly agree with this. My main point was regarding this point by Eggs:

I heard that that's the reason they did Z Moves, but the thing is besides Signatures how does giving every pokemon (including already strong ones) new powerful moves to work with make weaker pokemon more viable? Sure you could use Druddigon so you can use a dragon Z Move...or you could use Mega Salamence and accomplish the same thing with more power.

My point was more of a supplement to this point. Eggs pointed out that if your favorite ever Pokemon is Druddigon but you weren't using it before because it was too weak, then Z-Moves will not solve that problem. You could use a Haxorus (to give an example of a Pokemon stronger than Druddigon that can still hold items) and use the same Z-Move as Druddigon - therefore, the difference in power between Druddigon and Haxorus has not changed at all, so the player in this example would have no incentive to start using Druddigon, their favorite Pokemon ever, because it's still too weak comparatively with Haxorus.

My point with Mega Salamence is that even if we disregard the existence of Pokemon like Haxorus who can also use Z-moves - let's say that Druddigon and Mega Salamence are the only 2 Pokemon in the game - there is no reason to use Druddigon instead of Mega Salamence, just like there was no reason to use Druddigon over Haxorus. Mega Salamence can CONSISTENTLY output power on the same scale as Druddigon's (one time only) Z-move with its normal moves.

Therefore, the hypothetical player that Eggs brought up who is dissuaded from using their bae Druddigon.. Is still dissuaded from using Druddigon, even though it got a Z-Move and Mega Salamence didn't.

 

[Alola]

I can certainly agree with this. My main point was regarding this point by Eggs:



My point was more of a supplement to this point. Eggs pointed out that if your favorite ever Pokemon is Druddigon but you weren't using it before because it was too weak, then Z-Moves will not solve that problem. You could use a Haxorus (to give an example of a Pokemon stronger than Druddigon that can still hold items) and use the same Z-Move as Druddigon - therefore, the difference in power between Druddigon and Haxorus has not changed at all, so the player in this example would have no incentive to start using Druddigon, their favorite Pokemon ever, because it's still too weak comparatively with Haxorus.

My point with Mega Salamence is that even if we disregard the existence of Pokemon like Haxorus who can also use Z-moves - let's say that Druddigon and Mega Salamence are the only 2 Pokemon in the game - there is no reason to use Druddigon instead of Mega Salamence, just like there was no reason to use Druddigon over Haxorus. Mega Salamence can CONSISTENTLY output power on the same scale as Druddigon's (one time only) Z-move with its normal moves.

Therefore, the hypothetical player that Eggs brought up who is dissuaded from using their bae Druddigon.. Is still dissuaded from using Druddigon, even though it got a Z-Move and Mega Salamence didn't.

Ah, much better. I see your points now that you elaborated more-thank you for doing that. Hmm, in that case you're right (at least hypothetically haha). Especially with your first paragraph. Still, in comparison to Mega Evolution, the flashy Z-Moves may make people even more inclined to use their favorites (at least casually!) than Gen 6. I know I will take great pleasure in having my Rowlet's final evolution destroy opposition with Bloom Doom or whatever other Z-Move we use.

 

[DoctorWhy]

Umm, all 3DS systems will support Sun and Moon. They were never vague about it.

It'll just run much better on New 3DS.