MimeyTheKeeper
Member
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2022
- Messages
- 58
- Reaction score
- 212
Longer post about why battle between Leon and Alain did not work. And how it probably affects other battles.
I am no exception, found Leon vs Alain underwhelming. Yep, pacing was the obvious problem on the surface. But since I am recapping it in my head more and more, I think the writers approach to battles in general in Journeys is the main culprit. It was similar with Ash vs. Drasna, but many were oblivious to it, because different circumstances.
Problem n. 1 - Journeys seems to treat battles similarly to games and doing it badly (contrary to let's say Diamond and Pearl)
Disclaimer - I do no play the games, but been watching some videos of Pokémon Championships and Game walkthroughs lately.
As we all know, Pokémon is at its core strategy numbers game. All those Pokémon and their typing, attacks and abilities are just very functioning wrap under which pure mathematics takes place and virtually unlimited numbers of variations. The facade, if you will, makes it engaging, approachable, easier to remember and attach to. It is easier to comprehend/remember that some "fire" attack is more effective on grass than water. But some of those typings-matchups do not follow that strict obvious relatable real-world logic, but they simply need to be set up some way - some are better fitting, some are less. Why should "dark" be neutral to "psychic" for example? It has some allegory, but we all virtually know, because creators decided so. It's game. But when that info is crucial to understanding Anime battle...
Problem is and always to some degree has been, Anime is a visual medium. We had a clear example in the last episode - Rillaboom finishing Chesnaught with Acrobatics. Now, in games, that would be simple I reckon, that move is 4x effective on Chesnaught, with speed boost after G-Max, very good candidate for OHKO. Hiccup - that does not work so simple in Anime. First, taking these factors into the account is sometimes difficult to properly show ("yeah, Rillaboom is speedy somehow"), so we have characters narrating it for us. Diantha took the pleasure here, in DP it was mostly Brock explaining. Problem is some of these work good in Anime, like those famous toxic spikes, some of them not so much.
Then, in game you call the move Acrobatics, give it some stats and sprite. Here...the way the made Rillaboom use it, how many people not familiar with games would tell you that was flying move? I would say the way it was animated, many would presume fighting move. And do not let me start on, how they should infer from Chesnaught and his typing that he should be very weary of such moves? Not even mentioning explaining that proper fighting move would have done far less damage, they would probably not understand why. To human eye, one very sturdy Pokémon evaded and strongly punched other sturdy Pokémon.
Then you have things like tough claws with Charizard X, taxing Flare Blitz and other things. In the end, that battle could probably go similarly being it two gamers with said Pokémon. But that's the problem, the everlasting problem. This is Anime, not game.
To have your visual medium engaging, realism is not always the best way to go. Imagine realistic historic battles (unfilmable due to their slowness) or sword duels lasting 2-3 slashes.
So to wrap this point up - I think what Journeys is doing badly is forcing on (what seems to be) quite strict game logic and numbers, but trying it to show in very visually appealing way of Pokémon wrapped in fierce battle, overcoming themselves, trainers shouting. We know both approaches could work - in DP the strategy and tactics were paramount, in XY we had very engaging flowing battles, blow for blow. Ash-Greninja vs MCX was choreographed mostly like 5'/90lbs ninja frog vs 7'/240lbs flying dragon in intense, often close combat. Typings were secondary. You may prefer one or the other, that's not the issue.
Journeys is trying to mix them, so they could look stunning and have ton of emotional moments, but also having the mathematics behind work. They are trying to have the best from both sides, especially when it serves their desired brevity, but are unsurprisingly ending with more negatives. The result is this uncanny valley. Leon vs Alain was rushed, but remembering Ash vs Drasna, I do not think it would be that much better nonetheless. It needed to be much slower strategic fest constantly interrupted by explaining or flowing brawl where typing and matchups does not account for that much and both Monsterzards are just purely narratively required to give and suffer multiple hits before even imagining them going down.
But with this not-functioning approach, it was always destined to be letdown.
Problem n. 2 - showing Leon's strength in convincing way
First of all - there has been established way how to show champion's ace before. Cynthia's lady Garchomp was paramount I would say. It was simple - reasonable tank-iness, convincingly over-powered attack and ability to evade/cancel move out of nowhere. Garchomp demonstrated it against Paul, was affected by attacks less than Paul anticipated, finished his mons quicker. And when his strategy card came, it was nullified by Garchomp being able to evade Torterra's Giga Drain. But Garchomp was still affected by logic and her typing, just less so and had one Joker in her cards. That was reasonable.
Now, Journeys seems not to settle its mind why is Leon the best, although at the beginning it seemed well communicated. Maybe not satisfactory, but well communicated. Leon's been saying it himself. He (a) learns from every battle, (b) does not underestimate his opponent and (c) aims for super-effective hits.
Showed quite well against Lance and also Raihan.
Leon's Charizard seemed tanky, but not over-powered. His flamethrower lost clash with Gyarados's Hyper Beam and also Duralodon's Steel Beam. He was hit by effective Aqua Tail and Stone Edge respectively.
But Leon was sporting 4x effective Thunder Punch against Lance and waiting for right opportunity before showing it and also super-effective moves against Duralodon. And well done G-Maxing with finishing G-Max Wildfire has done the rest.
On the other hand. Ash's Pikachu was just simply over-powered in their sparing match and hard to say for Flint's Infernape, as we have seen just bits of that match.
Now with Alain, it seemed they are going the same way, but then dropped ball or what.
Leon's been obviously studying Alain, knowing his Ace is MCX. So he adjusted his Charizard's moveset - one obligatory Fire and one Flying move, but rest is Rock and Dragon, to be super-effective. G-Max is less appealing here, because G-Max Wildfire does not do its repeated damage on Fire types (and they are resistant anyway). So better to flex Rillaboom (also pleasing the crowd), to wipe up the rest.
Now, seems that Alain anticipated this and comes better prepared, avoiding Max Moves almost entirely. Leon uses G-Max and that gives Rillaboom the edge to finish Chesnaught, but then Alain's uses Charizard to wipe him out with single blow and at that point Alain's is theoretically winning - with single strike he evens the number of fallen Pokémon and has taken out Leon's gimmick.
But Leon sends out his Charizard and he wipes up the rest quickly, because clock is ticking. Again, we are shown that his Fire Blast does not overpower Malamar's attack, but then he pulls out Champion's Ace Joker by grabbing him (similarly like evading Flint's Infernape) and finishes him off. On the other hand his Dragon Pulse overpowers Flare Blitz and wins...
So to wrap this up - dear Anime, what makes Leon the best? It is strategy, him preparing moves deliberately and not panicking when opponent lands some attack and feels powerful (especially against Raihan). It is sheer strength and agility of his Charizard? Because sometimes is and sometimes is not. With Cynthia's Garchomp it was at least consistent. And that is the key - it is convenient to say that Leon's wins by what means are available to him at that moment. One match it is tactics, other sheer strength. And for some real world unbeatable champion, that would probably be the exact case. To be hard to read, had flexibility to win all matches. But again, works terribly in Anime. Leon's obstacle for Ash, therefore it must be telegraphed where are his strengths and how to beat him. Which takes us to very connected last problem...
Problem n.3 - how will Ash defeat Leon?
This one is not yet on table, but maybe very soon and threatening to be even more disappointing.
As we discussed above, Leon seems to be preparing very carefully for his matches and also not panicking during the match. With presumably also sheer strength on his side, how on earth will Ash win? Since Ash usually does not bother to research his opponent much. At least they are making him use more or less suitable Pokémon lately (especially against Raihan). But here, expecting it 6v6 there is not much to speculate with Pokémon Roster - especially with him not using reserves.
And Leon has been present for many Ash's battles - he has seen almost any trick Ash has pulled out so far - Lucario's defense and gigantic Aura Sphere, Gengar's ingenious use of mouth and tongue during G-Max. And probably also seen 10 Million Volt Thunderbolt against Volkner.
Ash is packing some new moves after visiting Oak's, but even those would have been revealed before finals.
If Ash is not winning by sheer strength, has limited options have to think outside of box (Leon has seen many occasions and will be counting on it, terrain is also non-factor in PWC for some time it seems) and even then Leon's Charizard has been pulling out his Joker lately, when he simply evades or stops something, because he is Leon's Charizard...how is Ash winning this convincingly exactly?
Yep, pulling out reserves would be strategically brilliant, but since we are not doing that and with writers simplifying too much when they are pushed (presumably by themselves) in the corner...I am half expecting 100 milion Volt Thunderbolt and half-stadium-sized Aura Sphere to communicate it visually. And that would be hardly satisfying. Hopefully they have some better ideas.
I am no exception, found Leon vs Alain underwhelming. Yep, pacing was the obvious problem on the surface. But since I am recapping it in my head more and more, I think the writers approach to battles in general in Journeys is the main culprit. It was similar with Ash vs. Drasna, but many were oblivious to it, because different circumstances.
Problem n. 1 - Journeys seems to treat battles similarly to games and doing it badly (contrary to let's say Diamond and Pearl)
Disclaimer - I do no play the games, but been watching some videos of Pokémon Championships and Game walkthroughs lately.
As we all know, Pokémon is at its core strategy numbers game. All those Pokémon and their typing, attacks and abilities are just very functioning wrap under which pure mathematics takes place and virtually unlimited numbers of variations. The facade, if you will, makes it engaging, approachable, easier to remember and attach to. It is easier to comprehend/remember that some "fire" attack is more effective on grass than water. But some of those typings-matchups do not follow that strict obvious relatable real-world logic, but they simply need to be set up some way - some are better fitting, some are less. Why should "dark" be neutral to "psychic" for example? It has some allegory, but we all virtually know, because creators decided so. It's game. But when that info is crucial to understanding Anime battle...
Problem is and always to some degree has been, Anime is a visual medium. We had a clear example in the last episode - Rillaboom finishing Chesnaught with Acrobatics. Now, in games, that would be simple I reckon, that move is 4x effective on Chesnaught, with speed boost after G-Max, very good candidate for OHKO. Hiccup - that does not work so simple in Anime. First, taking these factors into the account is sometimes difficult to properly show ("yeah, Rillaboom is speedy somehow"), so we have characters narrating it for us. Diantha took the pleasure here, in DP it was mostly Brock explaining. Problem is some of these work good in Anime, like those famous toxic spikes, some of them not so much.
Then, in game you call the move Acrobatics, give it some stats and sprite. Here...the way the made Rillaboom use it, how many people not familiar with games would tell you that was flying move? I would say the way it was animated, many would presume fighting move. And do not let me start on, how they should infer from Chesnaught and his typing that he should be very weary of such moves? Not even mentioning explaining that proper fighting move would have done far less damage, they would probably not understand why. To human eye, one very sturdy Pokémon evaded and strongly punched other sturdy Pokémon.
Then you have things like tough claws with Charizard X, taxing Flare Blitz and other things. In the end, that battle could probably go similarly being it two gamers with said Pokémon. But that's the problem, the everlasting problem. This is Anime, not game.
To have your visual medium engaging, realism is not always the best way to go. Imagine realistic historic battles (unfilmable due to their slowness) or sword duels lasting 2-3 slashes.
So to wrap this point up - I think what Journeys is doing badly is forcing on (what seems to be) quite strict game logic and numbers, but trying it to show in very visually appealing way of Pokémon wrapped in fierce battle, overcoming themselves, trainers shouting. We know both approaches could work - in DP the strategy and tactics were paramount, in XY we had very engaging flowing battles, blow for blow. Ash-Greninja vs MCX was choreographed mostly like 5'/90lbs ninja frog vs 7'/240lbs flying dragon in intense, often close combat. Typings were secondary. You may prefer one or the other, that's not the issue.
Journeys is trying to mix them, so they could look stunning and have ton of emotional moments, but also having the mathematics behind work. They are trying to have the best from both sides, especially when it serves their desired brevity, but are unsurprisingly ending with more negatives. The result is this uncanny valley. Leon vs Alain was rushed, but remembering Ash vs Drasna, I do not think it would be that much better nonetheless. It needed to be much slower strategic fest constantly interrupted by explaining or flowing brawl where typing and matchups does not account for that much and both Monsterzards are just purely narratively required to give and suffer multiple hits before even imagining them going down.
But with this not-functioning approach, it was always destined to be letdown.
Problem n. 2 - showing Leon's strength in convincing way
First of all - there has been established way how to show champion's ace before. Cynthia's lady Garchomp was paramount I would say. It was simple - reasonable tank-iness, convincingly over-powered attack and ability to evade/cancel move out of nowhere. Garchomp demonstrated it against Paul, was affected by attacks less than Paul anticipated, finished his mons quicker. And when his strategy card came, it was nullified by Garchomp being able to evade Torterra's Giga Drain. But Garchomp was still affected by logic and her typing, just less so and had one Joker in her cards. That was reasonable.
Now, Journeys seems not to settle its mind why is Leon the best, although at the beginning it seemed well communicated. Maybe not satisfactory, but well communicated. Leon's been saying it himself. He (a) learns from every battle, (b) does not underestimate his opponent and (c) aims for super-effective hits.
Showed quite well against Lance and also Raihan.
Leon's Charizard seemed tanky, but not over-powered. His flamethrower lost clash with Gyarados's Hyper Beam and also Duralodon's Steel Beam. He was hit by effective Aqua Tail and Stone Edge respectively.
But Leon was sporting 4x effective Thunder Punch against Lance and waiting for right opportunity before showing it and also super-effective moves against Duralodon. And well done G-Maxing with finishing G-Max Wildfire has done the rest.
On the other hand. Ash's Pikachu was just simply over-powered in their sparing match and hard to say for Flint's Infernape, as we have seen just bits of that match.
Now with Alain, it seemed they are going the same way, but then dropped ball or what.
Leon's been obviously studying Alain, knowing his Ace is MCX. So he adjusted his Charizard's moveset - one obligatory Fire and one Flying move, but rest is Rock and Dragon, to be super-effective. G-Max is less appealing here, because G-Max Wildfire does not do its repeated damage on Fire types (and they are resistant anyway). So better to flex Rillaboom (also pleasing the crowd), to wipe up the rest.
Now, seems that Alain anticipated this and comes better prepared, avoiding Max Moves almost entirely. Leon uses G-Max and that gives Rillaboom the edge to finish Chesnaught, but then Alain's uses Charizard to wipe him out with single blow and at that point Alain's is theoretically winning - with single strike he evens the number of fallen Pokémon and has taken out Leon's gimmick.
But Leon sends out his Charizard and he wipes up the rest quickly, because clock is ticking. Again, we are shown that his Fire Blast does not overpower Malamar's attack, but then he pulls out Champion's Ace Joker by grabbing him (similarly like evading Flint's Infernape) and finishes him off. On the other hand his Dragon Pulse overpowers Flare Blitz and wins...
So to wrap this up - dear Anime, what makes Leon the best? It is strategy, him preparing moves deliberately and not panicking when opponent lands some attack and feels powerful (especially against Raihan). It is sheer strength and agility of his Charizard? Because sometimes is and sometimes is not. With Cynthia's Garchomp it was at least consistent. And that is the key - it is convenient to say that Leon's wins by what means are available to him at that moment. One match it is tactics, other sheer strength. And for some real world unbeatable champion, that would probably be the exact case. To be hard to read, had flexibility to win all matches. But again, works terribly in Anime. Leon's obstacle for Ash, therefore it must be telegraphed where are his strengths and how to beat him. Which takes us to very connected last problem...
Problem n.3 - how will Ash defeat Leon?
This one is not yet on table, but maybe very soon and threatening to be even more disappointing.
As we discussed above, Leon seems to be preparing very carefully for his matches and also not panicking during the match. With presumably also sheer strength on his side, how on earth will Ash win? Since Ash usually does not bother to research his opponent much. At least they are making him use more or less suitable Pokémon lately (especially against Raihan). But here, expecting it 6v6 there is not much to speculate with Pokémon Roster - especially with him not using reserves.
And Leon has been present for many Ash's battles - he has seen almost any trick Ash has pulled out so far - Lucario's defense and gigantic Aura Sphere, Gengar's ingenious use of mouth and tongue during G-Max. And probably also seen 10 Million Volt Thunderbolt against Volkner.
Ash is packing some new moves after visiting Oak's, but even those would have been revealed before finals.
If Ash is not winning by sheer strength, has limited options have to think outside of box (Leon has seen many occasions and will be counting on it, terrain is also non-factor in PWC for some time it seems) and even then Leon's Charizard has been pulling out his Joker lately, when he simply evades or stops something, because he is Leon's Charizard...how is Ash winning this convincingly exactly?
Yep, pulling out reserves would be strategically brilliant, but since we are not doing that and with writers simplifying too much when they are pushed (presumably by themselves) in the corner...I am half expecting 100 milion Volt Thunderbolt and half-stadium-sized Aura Sphere to communicate it visually. And that would be hardly satisfying. Hopefully they have some better ideas.