[SPOILERS] The story of Sun&Moon

Laid to Wake
Joined
Oct 18, 2012
Messages
6,134
Reaction score
16,101
I'm starting to wonder if the post-game Cosmog event should even be considered canonical. Maybe it is strictly a convoluted gameplay obligation to allow us to complete the Dex and invert the clock. What would be the implications of it, anyway, since the player character has to cross over into the other world in order to get Cosmog? Is he/she robbing that world of their next Solgaleo/Lunala and turning it into its opposite? :confused:

Plus, it being non-canonical would slightly lessen the whole "Lillie doesn't keep Nebby" thing, because at least we wouldn't have a redundant Cosmog.
 
Destroyer of Fairy, Steel and Ice types.
Joined
Feb 21, 2011
Messages
5,199
Reaction score
2,239
I am confused. They say Solgaleo/Lunala are legendary but then they say they are ultra beasts. Which is it? All the other ultra beasts has the Beast Boost ability. Serebii lists Solgaleo/Lunala as legendary so would that confirm them as legendary?
 
Laid to Wake
Joined
Oct 18, 2012
Messages
6,134
Reaction score
16,101
I am confused. They say Solgaleo/Lunala are legendary but then they say they are ultra beasts. Which is it? All the other ultra beasts has the Beast Boost ability. Serebii lists Solgaleo/Lunala as legendary so would that confirm them as legendary?
"Legendary" is ultimately an arbitrary term, the particulars of which are completely at the whim of Game Freak. And however Serebii lists things is irrelevant; he's not an official source of information.

Of course, there's no reason why something cannot be both a Legendary Pokémon and an Ultra Beast. I don't think we have any cause, at the moment, to assume that Nihilego and its ilk are classified as Legendary Pokémon, but the Cosmog line definitely is, and it was also intimated by the storyline to be an Ultra Beast. So for now it could be considered both.
 
Formerly known as Tsu
Joined
May 23, 2010
Messages
4,757
Reaction score
2,066
I'm starting to wonder if the post-game Cosmog event should even be considered canonical. Maybe it is strictly a convoluted gameplay obligation to allow us to complete the Dex and invert the clock. What would be the implications of it, anyway, since the player character has to cross over into the other world in order to get Cosmog? Is he/she robbing that world of their next Solgaleo/Lunala and turning it into its opposite? :confused:

Plus, it being non-canonical would slightly lessen the whole "Lillie doesn't keep Nebby" thing, because at least we wouldn't have a redundant Cosmog.
I agree that it should be considered non-canonical.

If it were canonical, that would mean we'd wind up with two Lunala, which doesn't make any sense. And yes, it definitely makes Lillie not keeping Nebby an easier pill to swallow.
 
Actually Your Boy Guzma
Joined
Mar 26, 2016
Messages
1,379
Reaction score
1,824
You know, after playing through the game, Guzma's dethroned Ghetsis as my favorite Pokemon villain. Ghetsis is still scarier and more evil, but Guzma's just so hilarious.
I cracked up at the "Y'all are STUPID!" bit.
 
Hear me roar!
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Messages
6,083
Reaction score
5,377
Guzma cracked me up through the whole game honestly. Ghetsis definitely is scarier due to the psychotic feeling he has, but Guzma just outclasses him due to his hilarious dialogue and his egocentric personality. Plus, Guzma was challenging to me.

And his "Y'all are stupid!" line was just pure gold. I laughed so hard when he said that.
 
Destroyer of Fairy, Steel and Ice types.
Joined
Feb 21, 2011
Messages
5,199
Reaction score
2,239
Guzma does not outclass Ghetsis. Ghetsis was a far more serious and superior villain than Guzma in my opinion. Funny villains are not good villains in my opinion.
 
Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2014
Messages
1,664
Reaction score
1,226
I guess gladion tries to explain why his mother went crazy for the ultra beast before he gives you type null, but what is guzmas role in all this? How did they know each other what did he hope to gain? where did he go and what becomes of team skull?
 
*Silly Dance For Power*
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Messages
1
Reaction score
4
...but what is guzmas role in all this?
According to Plumaria, Lusamine was one of the first adults that ever really respected him and acknowledged his power, which means a lot to someone who is all but stated to be from an abusive household. This was probably enough to gain his loyalty until she proved just how crazy she was.
How did they know each other what did he hope to gain?
He wanted more power. The power of an Ultra Beast, in this case. His plan was just to catch one and become the baddest dude in Alola, but we all saw how that turned out.
...where did he go and what becomes of team skull?
You can meet him again in that one house on Route 2, across from the hotel.
He disbanded Team Skull after the whole mess was over, and after you beat him in a battle on the beach he gets dragged off by Hala to learn what it really means to be a trainer.
 
Last edited:
Laid to Wake
Joined
Oct 18, 2012
Messages
6,134
Reaction score
16,101
someone who is all but stated to be from an abusive household.
Now, this is the point I raised on the previous page of this thread. I don't think Guzma's parents were abusive.

His dad talks about how going on a journey is great for kids, but running off without letting your parents know is an entirely different matter. From that, I assume he's saying that Guzma left to sign up for the island challenge without letting his parents know. The dad then says that he "tried to set [Guzma] straight," but he was "the one who ended up getting beat."

That implies a reversal. I think at most, Guzma's dad may have tried to strike him in this instance (we don't have an immediate reason to think that it was a regular occurrence, because the dad's description of the events specifically correlates it to this particular transgression of Guzma running off without saying anything), but Guzma, being younger and stronger, turned it around and beat his dad. That's consistent with Guzma's self-description as "the hated boss who beats you down and beats you down and never lets up." (Although, do note that I'm not forgiving the dad in this situation. I'm just saying that I don't think we have firm evidence that the physical abuse was a regular occurrence. The account that we have makes it sound like a one-off.)

So what about the damaged golf clubs? Well, maybe Guzma used those to attack his dad, but I don't know about that. I think it's equally possible that after beating his dad, Guzma may have smashed up the golf clubs just to take out further frustration on him. If golfing was something that Guzma's dad enjoyed, and Guzma's dad is here trying to punish Guzma for what he enjoys (Pokémon battling), then I can see Guzma wanting to "get even."

We also know that Guzma has come back to the house in the post-game, and asked his dad to give the player his old Swagger TM. To me, that sounds like Guzma may be trying to make amends, which I'd find a rather uncomfortable thought if Guzma had been a regular victim of abuse. I think it makes more sense if it was all just this one incident that led to Guzma attacking his dad, and now Guzma is trying to apologize for his part in that.
 
Actually Your Boy Guzma
Joined
Mar 26, 2016
Messages
1,379
Reaction score
1,824
Guzma does not outclass Ghetsis. Ghetsis was a far more serious and superior villain than Guzma in my opinion. Funny villains are not good villains in my opinion.
Funny can still be cool. Ghetsis is still one of my favorites since he is the biggest Complete Monster in the main series. See, there's no excuse for anything he did - he's no someone who had an abusive childhood like Cyrus and Guzma possibly did, he wasn't someone who went insane from being so jaded with the world like Lysandre, and he wasn't someone who went insane because of the influence of Eldritch Abominations like Lusie. He's able to match Giovanni in threat level. Unlike Guzma, Archie and Maxie, he doesn't redeem himself in the end. Ghetsis is one hundred percent pure evil, and that's why he's a great villain...

But Guzma's just so damn hilarious that he became my favorite character in the game.
 
The Charming Fool
Joined
Oct 10, 2013
Messages
719
Reaction score
163
Does anyone know what the Japanese text says in secret lab B? I really have to question whether Mohn is the same one mentioned in those texts or if it's just a localization thing.
 
Laid to Wake
Joined
Oct 18, 2012
Messages
6,134
Reaction score
16,101
Does anyone know what the Japanese text says in secret lab B? I really have to question whether Mohn is the same one mentioned in those texts or if it's just a localization thing.
I mean, Mohn has bleach-blond hair and green eyes... I don't think that's a localization thing, and this series isn't really the type to break the One Steve Limit.
 
Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
1,334
Reaction score
1,732
"Legendary" is ultimately an arbitrary term, the particulars of which are completely at the whim of Game Freak. And however Serebii lists things is irrelevant; he's not an official source of information.

Of course, there's no reason why something cannot be both a Legendary Pokémon and an Ultra Beast. I don't think we have any cause, at the moment, to assume that Nihilego and its ilk are classified as Legendary Pokémon, but the Cosmog line definitely is, and it was also intimated by the storyline to be an Ultra Beast. So for now it could be considered both.
About the Ultra Beasts - Nihilego and its ilk, I do feel like bringing up something one of the dataminers dug up. They dug up two lists - one for the "sub-legendaries" which Type: Null line and UBs are in it (as well as the Birds, Beasts, Regis, Pixies, Regigigas, Heatran, Musketeers, Genies, and Tapus), and the other list is for the "legendaries". Phione is in it (along with the mascots, Mewtwo, Zygarde, Necrozma, and all the Mythicals).

Here are the links for the lists:

View: https://twitter.com/SciresM/status/799324958770032641

View: https://twitter.com/SciresM/status/799322666079551488
 
Laid to Wake
Joined
Oct 18, 2012
Messages
6,134
Reaction score
16,101
Alright, I've got to go on a bit of a rant here.

It's not really a problem on this site, but I frankly am sick of this fandom's tendency to force """""dark""""" """""themes""""" into the games.

People seem to be going gaga over how "dark" the Pokédex entries are this time. But for god's sake. Game Freak isn't trying to "sneak things in" or to be "adult," or at least not in the way people seem to think. The Pokédex entries in this generation seem to be written in such a way to emphasize that Alola has a realistic ecosystem filled with creatures with comprehensible biological traits. So we get descriptions of how Toxapex prey on Corsola, or how you can find the bones of Palossand's prey underneath it. That's not Game Freak trying to be edgy or to show that it's "not a kid's game." It definitely is a kid's game, it's just that Game Freak (thankfully) don't seem to think of kids as being fragile little muffins who can't deal with the fact that yes, cheetahs are quite vicious and nature ain't always pretty.

Then there's the abusive parents, which seems to be one of the fandom's favorite things ever. It's not just the Guzma thing - there *is* room in that to suggest that Guzma's dad may have tried to physically discipline him. It's vague, but I do think that interpretation can be reasonably made (though whether the golf clubs were involved or if the abuse was a regular occurrence is another matter - it's probably still open to debate, but personally, the context leads me to think that neither are the case). But no, I'm seeing some people say that Lusamine tried to kill Lillie "multiple times." Um, how about no? Because that never happened whatsoever. Lusamine may have been off her rocker in Ultra Space, but as far as we know, she wasn't influenced by Nihilego before then, and even afterward, she seems more poised to attack the player, if anything (and if she did mean to attack us, there's still quite a jump from "assault" to "attempted murder").

And then the icing on the cake has to be this notion that the Ultra Beasts wiped out the GBA/DS universe. That isn't suggested anywhere in the games. And yet fans keep running with it. "Jesus Christ, Game Freak! How dark! can you get!?" What is it with this obsession with making everything dark and miserable? Does it really improve the story in any way? To say, apropos of nothing, that everybody in the old universe is, by the way, totally dead now? Come on.

Sorry. I just really needed to get that off my chest.

About the Ultra Beasts - Nihilego and its ilk, I do feel like bringing up something one of the dataminers dug up. They dug up two lists - one for the "sub-legendaries" which Type: Null line and UBs are in it (as well as the Birds, Beasts, Regis, Pixies, Regigigas, Heatran, Musketeers, Genies, and Tapus), and the other list is for the "legendaries". Phione is in it (along with the mascots, Mewtwo, Zygarde, Necrozma, and all the Mythicals).

Here are the links for the lists:

View: https://twitter.com/SciresM/status/799324958770032641

View: https://twitter.com/SciresM/status/799322666079551488
Damn, way to go Phione.
 
New Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
Messages
72
Reaction score
64
@Esserise : May I offer a counterpoint; there are people who DON'T like the perceived direction of Pokémon going towards "darker" aspects. Like myself. If we interpret these things as such, a few of us may be turned off by the perception.

I certainly don't like to think this is a deliberate design, but if people are gonna go bonkers about it, perception will eventually become reality.
 
Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2012
Messages
202
Reaction score
3
So are Z-moves explained in-game (as in, the science behind its phenomenon) to the extent that Mega Evolution and Primal Reversion were? If so, is there anything that indicates Z-moves as something that would be restricted to the separate universe that Gen VI-VII are in? Like, does the existence of Z-moves seem to tie in with the results of the Ultimate Weapon at all?

Oh and while we're on the topic, (sorry, this isn't a Sun/Moon question) unless I missed something shouldn't Primal Reversion technically be achievable in the RSE universe if the PC thought of slapping on the Red/Blue orbs to Groudon/Kyogre? The backstory of ORAS Hoenn says that Primal Reversion existed since ancient times where the battles between the two titans created Hoenn (which I would think predates AZ's time, unless I'm mistaken).

So I saw this interesting post:
You also become the League's first Champion, and Hau challenges you. I feel like playing this through and losing to Hau
I mean, this isn't exactly something that's new (your rival being one step behind you rather than ahead of you) to my knowledge. I mean, the only rivals that come to mind are Blue and Barry. Wally only got ahead of the PC in the middle of the game (and this also applies to ORAS only).
 
Top