Preview JN009: The Promise We Made that Day! The Houou Legend of the Johto Region!!

[PkmnTrainerV]

People need to stop over-analysing things. There isn't any rule established in the anime that you should befriend every Pokemon before you capture it, Kanto has already proven this no matter how long ago it happened.

Gary caught heaps of Pokemon like Go is and it wasn't seen as wrong by Oak or any one else.

There’s no such rule but Ash never supported the practice. It was clearly presented as the more ethical choice and the protagonists clearly avoided doing so. And now said protagonist is acting as if it’d perfectly fine.

People are not over analysing things but confused on the anime doing a 180 in the ethics department while promoting Pokémon Go.

 

[Silktree]

Are you really justifying the context of the present day anime with stuff that happened 22+ years ago? Yes, I won't deny that OS-Kanto had a lot of similar moments but it had other weird shit happening as well that can be credited to Early Installment Weirdness. But 22 years down the line, repeating the same mistakes that were rare (if not non-existent) is quite jarring and contradictory.

Safari Zone mechanics shouldn't be jarring or contradictory. Pokemon Go didn't invent them, and the anime shouldn't treat them like the plague.

The bottom line is that this is what Go's goal requires, unless they scale down the captures a lot. I think that future capture episodes will have more time to breathe, but they do need an average of about one capture per episode (say 3 captures every third episode) if they want to make it to 151 within 3 years.

Except you know... some of his captures literally tried to murder him beforehand (Pinsir and Beedrill) but they automatically became friends with him? One would have expected to see at least a bit of friction between trainer and Pokemon but judging by next week's preview,

I would have liked an explanation for that, yes. But these two didn't have a real reason to be so aggressive in the first place; giving them some food and friends to play with could believably make them calm down.

it seems like Scyther will obey Gou without any problem. Remember when Charizard was so powerful that it disobeyed Ash because it thought the trainer wasn't strong enough to command it?

We don't know how strong it is (the fact of the matter is that Scorbunny had the upper hand) and it doesn't have the history that Charizard did, which made it too attached to power when it evolved.

Like @sc190191 stated, just because they showed a 20 second scene with him "playing" with his Pokemon doesn't mean he's actually bonded with them. If anything, they've been brainwashed by the future PokeSith Lord.

Ash and his companions battle, feed and play with their Pokemon for the most part. Their bond isn't that deep except for certain starters, and Ash hasn't seen most of them on-screen since leaving them at Oak's.

I won't be replying to future complaints about that episode in an unrelated thread. The Ho-Oh episode won't be about Go, so tone down the pessimism or you might as well drop the show entirely.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Safari Zone mechanics shouldn't be jarring or contradictory. Pokemon Go didn't invent them, and the anime shouldn't treat them like the plague.

Safari Zone's a special place with different mechanics, which may, or may not be feasible in the wider Pokémon universe. Avoiding or using the mechanics shouldn’t come at the cost of the world building set up by the anime for the prior 20 years of its run.

But these two didn't have a real reason to be so aggressive in the first place;

Who knew that known aggressive species of an organism would act out aggressively when a boy throws a ball at them on a random day for his specimen collection without any prior meaningful interaction...

The bottom line is that this is what Go's goal requires,

That’s another can of worms, a main character's goal goes against the ethics the anime has established, and instead of using the opportunity to provide meaningful contrast or arguments they’re suddenly acting as if it’s completely fine to go on random catching sprees and collecting Pokémon just for the sake of a collection.

Ash and his companions battle, feed and play with their Pokemon for the most part. Their bond isn't that deep except for certain starters, and Ash hasn't seen most of them on-screen since leaving them at Oak's.

Key word: "since leaving them at Oak's", which was usually preceded by bonding, training and battling sessions of an entire series'duration. Almost every Pokemon got their time to shine as a member of Ash's team for an entire saga. So it’s not really fair to say Ash didn’t spend appropriate bonding time with them. In the prior series he often called them back to battle, too. It’s more of a recent series' issue where they're scaling down on continuity, but all those Pokémon in total spent more time with Ash than any non-Scorbunny Pokémon can dare to expect from Go.

I do agree it’s getting off topic for this thread,and the subject matter of this episode won’t change anything about how the anime handles Go's goals.

 

[game3524]

Wait, what? Continuity doesn't just mean references to past episodes. They have completely contradicted the set up for capturing new Pokemon that has been relevant to the entire series to date, replacing it with mobile game mechanics. Direct and significant contradictions represent a departure from continuity that is far greater than any BW or XY had. BW and XY at least felt like the same world, whereas this series is some bizarre hybrid 80% Pokemon Go, 20% Pokemon anime. Nothing in BW or XY made past events make little sense in light of new events like the new catching mechanic does towards most historic catches and even training. Nothing in BW or XY hypocritically made something okay that was taught as a lesson multiple times as not okay, like catching tons of Pokemon for selfish reasons without considering the Pokemon's point of view. You could say PM has more references than BW or XY did, but even then, these references are extremely shallow and limited, and borderline contradictory to the point of having essentially no value. Continuity envelops a lot more than just references, and in that regard, PM is quite easily the worst so far.

That isn't a contradiction.

Go's method of catching Pokemon was no different then Ash catching the 30 Tauros back in the day. Also, there is nothing in Pokemon that says catching a lot of Pokemon is selfish without befriending them. I don't know where people are getting this idea from. Gary caught over 200 Pokemon and it was never frowned up and no one has ever complained about Ash's herd of Tauros in show. On top of that, we have had several captures where the main characters never thought about the Pokemon "feelings" (ex. Ash and Caterpie, Tauros, and Krabby and Brock with Zubat). You can also point to Ash and Brock with Donphan in Johto (yes, they didn't capture it, but they never thought about it's feelings) or Misty with Quagsire. Also, I don't remember Ash or Misty giving a shit about Totodile's feelings when they were trying to catch it. Go's method and thought process is nothing new.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

That isn't a contradiction.

Go's method of catching Pokemon was no different then Ash catching the 30 Tauros back in the day. Also, there is nothing in Pokemon that says catching a lot of Pokemon is selfish without befriending them. I don't know where people are getting this idea from. Gary caught over 200 Pokemon and it was never frowned and no one has ever complained about Ash's herd of Tauros in show. On top of that, we have had several captures where the main characters never thought about the Pokemon "feelings" (ex. Ash and Caterpie, Tauros, and Krabby and Brock with Zubat).

There’s a common theme in all the examples you mentioned... they're from OS, the home of early series instalment. And most of the captures toh listed weren’t typical.
Caterpie was literally the first capture of the franchise, Ash didn’t even capture the Tauros himself. The captures also happened under a different, specialised environment and the episode ended up getting itself banned anyway.

There’s a reason Ash hasn't captured a hoard since.

Also, there is nothing in Pokemon that says catching a lot of Pokemon is selfish without befriending them.

Remember when Paul used to follow the Pokémon GO model to a t? Capturing multiples of a Pokémon, releasing whatever he didn’t like? And the protagonist took up a series-long rivalry to show that befriending Pokemon is the way to go?
Before anyone mentions the Chimchar issues, it was a separate thing, the rivalry was formed due to Ash hating Paul's style of simply releasing Pokémon he didn’t like, or training without befriending his Pokémon.

The thought process might not be new but it clearly isn’t the optimal way captures are advocated to be.

 

[game3524]

There’s a common theme in all the examples you mentioned... they're from OS, the home of early series instalment.

It is still canon and the OS was over 200 episodes and the backbone of the entire series. And I also added some examples that weren't from early Kanto, but as late as Johto.

Remember when Paul used to follow the Pokémon GO model to a t? Capturing multiples of a Pokémon, releasing whatever he didn’t like? And the protagonist took up a series-long rivalry to show that befriending Pokemon is the way to go?

Paul wasn't following Go's method. The issue was him releasing his Pokemon outright due to being "weak". There was nothing inherently wrong with him catching a ton of Pokemon.

 

[nickdt]

In terms of mechanics, Go caught a lot of his bugs in the same way Ash caught Caterpie, Krabby and 30 Tauros. It might be jarring when it happens many times in the same episode, but it isn't unprecedented. Besides, you could see how they were gradually building up to the "you need to weaken a Pokemon before you catch it" rule.

In terms of morality, befriending a Pokemon before you catch it isn't a rule, at least except for starters (although just being given one isn't exactly a testament of anything). It's also unfeasible unless a character has a small roster. What matters more is how you treat the Pokemon once you have it, and in that regard Go isn't off to a bad start given how he played with his bugs, found a place for them nearby, and will meditate with them soon.

The difference is: Safari Zone mechanics. You couldn't fight them, so the only way was to capture them in first or second try, else they run away. It was explain in-universe that both Caterpie and Krabby were weak upon capture, which explains the first Pokeball stuck. The thing they should have done with the Capture episode
Caterpie, Metapod, Weedle, Kakuna, Paras easy captures
Venonat and Parasect: 1st pop out, second is in
Evolved forms (Excluding Scyther, because it was the main focus): Fight, throw ball, stay in
Scyther: Fight, Throw regular ball, Pop out, fight, throw Net ball, stay in.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

And Ash did weaken Krabby using his own physical normal type attacks.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Warning: This post contains sarcasm.

What fans want to happen: Ash and Ho-Oh have a heart-to-heart talk or battle about Ash's goals and their previous encounters.

What will actually happen: Go's friend (a.k.a. Pikachu's trainer) wakes up one day and sees news about a legendary bird Pokémon on the newspaper. Go's friend will say that he has very vague memories of it and that he wants to see it again, Sakuragi says that he and Go should go to Ecruteak City. The duo go there, visit the inside of the Brass Tower and go through a series of Indiana Jones-esque trials, where Go catches a bunch of Fire-type Pokémon while Go's friend is burned by all of them. At the end they meet up with Eugene and Norty, two trainers from Team Valor who tell them the legend of Ho-Oh. Go's friend sees Ho-Oh flying in the distance and promises to become one day a Pokemon Master, while Go vows to catch 'em all. They go back to Vermilion City and await for their next exciting adventure.

I personally find this sarcasm and pessimism highly unamusing. Try to have some more positivity and take your losses with less disappointment.

 

[MarshiyanMisutaa]

There’s a common theme in all the examples you mentioned... they're from OS, the home of early series instalment.

View: https://youtu.be/3HgArBzKgPM
Wow, he even said "Go!"

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

View: https://youtu.be/3HgArBzKgPM
Wow, he even said "Go!"

Did you miss the part where Ash actually battled Fletchling and showed it his skill as a trainer?

That’s another way the anime works: the Pokemon earning respect for the trainer, else you’re met with disobedience.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

I personally find this sarcasm and pessimism highly unamusing. Try to have some more positivity and take your losses with less disappointment.

Well, the sarcasm can be quite funny. And “take your losses?” We’re literally talking about a TV show here...

How would you react if someone told you to express your opinions to a minimum? There’s place for both positivity and negativity over here, as long as it’s civil discussion. The post you quoted was just a joke.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Did you miss the part where Ash actually battled Fletchling and showed it his skill as a trainer?

That’s another way the anime works: the Pokemon earning respect for the trainer, else you’re met with disobedience.

You quoted the wrong post there.

Well, the sarcasm can be quite funny. And “take your losses?” We’re literally talking about a TV show here...

How would you react if someone told you to express your opinions to a minimum? There’s place for both positivity and negativity over here, as long as it’s civil discussion. The post you quoted was just a joke.

"Take your losses" as in "taking your disappointments". I guess I should have been more clear.

A joke that I didn't find as amusing as others.

And yeah, I tend to support various ideals, while not actually following them myself. A bad habit of mine...

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

You quoted the wrong post there.

Sorry, I got two notifications for the single thread and wrote up the replies on two separate mobile tabs, editing it right now.

 

[MarshiyanMisutaa]

Did you miss the part where Ash actually battled Fletchling and showed it his skill as a trainer?

What? Main point of criticism about Gou's captures was how he doesn't friended them and didn't care about pokémon's feelings. No one said anything about that.

That’s another way the anime works: the Pokemon earning respect for the trainer, else you’re met with disobedience

Maybe Gou's pokémon care more about his ball throwing skills.

 

[Silktree]

Pinsir and Beedril didn't see any Poke Balls when they started to attack. Again, it's far from good writing to make them friendly overnight, but their aggression was a gag to begin with.

Key word: "since leaving them at Oak's", which was usually preceded by bonding, training and battling sessions of an entire series'duration. Almost every Pokemon got their time to shine as a member of Ash's team for an entire saga. So it’s not really fair to say Ash didn’t spend appropriate bonding time with them.

I didn't say that he didn't bond with them, but I find it weird when Go playing with his Pokemon is downplayed as if he needs to take them to therapy beforehand. Pokemon-human interactions are generally pretty one-note, so there's a double standard here when Go is vilified after one episode. In my opinion, feeding and playing with your Pokemon every day for the rest of your/its life, is a far bigger deal than helping it improve for the sake of a badge quest over a year at most. Sure, the latter is a lot more exciting, but that is not what a true bond is about. Otherwise I'd have a bigger connection to digital data than to my own dogs, and that would be ridiculous.

I'd understand the criticism if Go sent his Pokemon to a lab and barely saw them again, but that is probably not the case since he lives right next door. So at least wait another episode before you pass harsh judgment.

but all those Pokémon in total spent more time with Ash than any non-Scorbunny Pokémon can dare to expect from Go.

That's the undue pessimism I'm talking about. Scyther and similar Pokemon could easily receive better treatment than certain members of Ash's roster, certainly the ones that were never permanent members of his team. The rest will be showcased every now and then. Is it the ideal form of friendship? No, but that's Go's goal and it's similar to what professors do. The boy's crime is that he wants to get to know as many Pokemon as possible. He's far more studious than Ash or past companions, which is perfectly okay, but he's probably going to be toned down eventually.

Before anyone mentions the Chimchar issues, it was a separate thing, the rivalry was formed due to Ash hating Paul's style of simply releasing Pokémon he didn’t like, or training without befriending his Pokémon.

Go hasn't done any of those things yet. And as I recall, the rivalry was resolved with Ash and Paul both understanding each other, rather than the latter changing outright. I guess that was okay?

It doesn't matter how old the OS is, especially when the recent episode clearly mirrored the Caterpie/Pidgeotto capture episode. Ash would have to be a hypocrite to tell Go that he needs to befriend a Pokemon before catching it. Hell, every single regional bird was caught after a battle without any grand gesture behind it (and only Noctowl and Tailow posed a challenge), and the same goes for Corphish, Palpitoad and probably someone else. Even if "can I catch you, please?" is Ash's preferred way, it is clear that most trainers out there are less friendly, and you can blame Poke Ball technology for that. They don't need to ask permission, and the show can't stick to the same character tropes forever without the whole thing feeling contrived and repetitive.

If is this is all about "you need to weaken a Pokemon first!", then: 1. Ash said that towards the end and that's how the last two captures were handled. 2. What does that have to do with friendship? It's just a technique to increase the odds of capture.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Maybe Gou's pokémon care more about his ball throwing skills.

Well, Go must be quite a prodigy to captivate Pokemon with his ball throwing skills alone when most trainers (if not all before him) have had to battle before capturing...

The main concern for me is Pokémon being treated as trivial beings to be obtained for collection and being captured relatively easily compared to the previous series just to be sent to the lab. Like Ash's reserves, only the don’t spend even a single moment battling or being in Go's team. At least his reserves had an entire series to their name.

In my opinion, feeding and playing with your Pokemon every day for the rest of your/its life, is a far bigger deal than helping it improve for the sake of a badge quest over a year at most. Sure, the latter is a lot more exciting, but that is not what a true bond is about. Otherwise I'd have a bigger connection to digital data than to my own dogs, and that would be ridiculous.

Training for the badge quest involved all of it though, at least in Ash's training methods.

I guess I'll wait for the next episodes to see how Go treats his Pokémon, but the way his captures have been handled doesn’t bode well to me, at all. Specially if he ends up with more catching sprees.

 

[Beatsy Ray]

The franchise has established from the very start that capturing every Pokemon, or capturing Pokemon the "traditional way" is not immoral. This is a fantasy universe and that's just how it works. Nobody in the games or anime (except Team Plasma) have ever implied otherwise. Ash is a hyperactive kid who really loves Pokemon, not a social justice warrior (Poke-justice? idk). Ash caught both Starly and Fletchling using the "kidnap method" and no one batted an eye. Actually I watched the Starly episode recently and that one was particularly brutal; not only did he maim an innocent wild animal, he also chucked that ball at it's face with full force which visually showed it getting hurt even more. And that's perfectly moral because that's how this universe works.

Frankly, Ash doesn't have any strong feelings on the matter. When he heard how many Pokemon Gary caught, he was jealous at how much better he was doing. The only thing keeping Ash from going on a mass catching spree is his short attention span and his overwhelming excitement whenever he catches one, causing him to stop what he's doing and shower it with love and affection. That's what makes Ash special and why he is the protagonist of the show. While catching Pokemon normally is fine, Ash is unique in that he bonds with Pokemon way more than anyone else. That doesn't mean everyone else is evil, that just means Ash is the Pokemon whisperer. What makes Ash likable is the fact that he doesn't realize this. He doesn't snub his nose at other trainers or act high and mighty, he just follows his heart. You can argue that most protagonists in this show treat their Pokemon similarly making Ash less unique, but I think that's because they get inspired by seeing how Ash interacts with his Pokemon and follow suit.

As for the GO references, the quest to catch all Pokemon was introduced in Red/Blue. The only thing that makes this a GO reference is "Excellent!" and that fact that he's using a phone. I'm surprised that it took so long for this mechanic to be introduced into the anime actually. I'm okay with most of the first-attempt captures because they were mostly low-level bugs, but I'll admit that the Pinser one was pretty appalling. They were foreshadowing the fact that Gou would eventually have to battle for the whole episode, and something tells me he'll never have such an easy time ever again so I'll forgive it just this once.

 

[sc190191]

That isn't a contradiction.

Go's method of catching Pokemon was no different then Ash catching the 30 Tauros back in the day. Also, there is nothing in Pokemon that says catching a lot of Pokemon is selfish without befriending them. I don't know where people are getting this idea from. Gary caught over 200 Pokemon and it was never frowned up and no one has ever complained about Ash's herd of Tauros in show. On top of that, we have had several captures where the main characters never thought about the Pokemon "feelings" (ex. Ash and Caterpie, Tauros, and Krabby and Brock with Zubat). You can also point to Ash and Brock with Donphan in Johto (yes, they didn't capture it, but they never thought about it's feelings) or Misty with Quagsire. Also, I don't remember Ash or Misty giving a shit about Totodile's feelings when they were trying to catch it. Go's method and thought process is nothing new.

The Tauros captures were a joke episode, most of the captures were by accident. It was also the safari zone, where battling wasn't allowed. Like was said before, Pokemon often gain respect for trainer through battle, it isn't an ambush capture, no one was ever sneaking up throwing balls like Go was. He literally was trying to ambush them, trying to make sure they didn't hear him or Scorbunny coming.

Pinsir and Beedril didn't see any Poke Balls when they started to attack. Again, it's far from good writing to make them friendly overnight, but their aggression was a gag to begin with.


I didn't say that he didn't bond with them, but I find it weird when Go playing with his Pokemon is downplayed as if he needs to take them to therapy beforehand. Pokemon-human interactions are generally pretty one-note, so there's a double standard here when Go is vilified after one episode. In my opinion, feeding and playing with your Pokemon every day for the rest of your/its life, is a far bigger deal than helping it improve for the sake of a badge quest over a year at most. Sure, the latter is a lot more exciting, but that is not what a true bond is about. Otherwise I'd have a bigger connection to digital data than to my own dogs, and that would be ridiculous.

The problem is the Pokemon are being treated as collectibles rather than individuals. None of them have any actions that distinguish them from one another. Compare that to how the main characters Pokemon were in any series really (even OS), but especially the more recent series. It is awful writing, lazy writing, and its completely pointless, considering it really has no entertainment value either (especially the catch episodes, which are insanely boring when catching is so easy). And if he truly catches them all, most will have absolutely nothing to their name besides being a trophy. The bug Pokemon all playing in the exact same way, and then all stretching in the exact same way, are just token scenes that have no meaning at all and further strip the Pokemon of any chance at being unique.

That's the undue pessimism I'm talking about. Scyther and similar Pokemon could easily receive better treatment than certain members of Ash's roster, certainly the ones that were never permanent members of his team. The rest will be showcased every now and then. Is it the ideal form of friendship? No, but that's Go's goal and it's similar to what professors do. The boy's crime is that he wants to get to know as many Pokemon as possible. He's far more studious than Ash or past companions, which is perfectly okay, but he's probably going to be toned down eventually.

He doesn't want to get to know as many Pokemon as possible, he wants to light up a fucking log in his phone. His motivation has nothing to do with the Pokemon themselves, it is a fully selfish desire to have a record in his phone. That is what made episode 6 the most disgusting by far. The connection to Mew is tenuous at best, and even then he didn't state that until the end of the episode, his entire motivation was lighting up his phone, making him purely a collector for collections sake, rendering his Pokemon as trophies. We've seen collectors before, they were all considered very bad.

Sorry to edit and add something late, but you saying Go wants to get to know as many Pokemon as possible makes me chuckle, because that's exactly what Ash has done. Its already been done, he's met nearly every Pokemon, and he's had more meaningful encounters with most Pokemon without having to catch them. Now in a three year series they can't give meaningful encounters to all Pokemon, which makes it questionable why they would try to tackle something like this in the first place, when they've basically been doing it in a more entertaining and meaningful way for years.

If is this is all about "you need to weaken a Pokemon first!", then: 1. Ash said that towards the end and that's how the last two captures were handled. 2. What does that have to do with friendship? It's just a technique to increase the odds of capture.

Its not all about any one thing, its about a lot of really bad things stuffed into a really shitty 20 minutes. Ash kind of mentioning towards the end doesn't change the fact that Go caught multiple fully evolved Pokemon with no effort at all. It completely changes the dynamics of the universe. It doesn't mean anything to have a strong Pokemon anymore, if anyone can just toss a ball at anytime. This goes against so much we have seen, like said earlier, Ash's Krabby was especially weak and he even had to battle it some. May couldn't even get an Azurill, Dawn couldn't get a Buneary, but Go gets multiple fully evolved Pokemon with no effort. Having a Pokemon never meant less, because this selfish kid is going to have tons within a few days of becoming a trainer, with no way to give them all proper attention and respect they deserve, and he could easily be good at battles as well with no effort because you can just automatically catch a strong Pokemon without having strong Pokemon of your own. This so clearly messes up so many previously established notions about the anime universe.

I personally find this sarcasm and pessimism highly unamusing. Try to have some more positivity and take your losses with less disappointment.

If people didn't voice any displeasure the conversations here would be pretty stale and boring, not to mention extremely short. You may like no conflict at first, but you would probably get pretty bored after a while. It'd be about as exciting as....catching tons of Pokemon without any struggle or difficulty. Anyway, sorry if some of the negativity is bothering you, but remember that all of us here are very passionate about Pokemon, so when something is really upsetting it is going to manifest itself in certain ways. This is kind of the place to talk about how we feel, whether it is good or bad.

Its clear many of us have seen this series differently in the past, but at least it had enough ambiguity to not shove something a lot of us see as negative down our throats. I just see the collection of Pokemon for collections sake as so disgusting. The way I have interpreted Pokemon (which may well be wrong) is that they are not the equivalent of pets, they are not mindless beings, they have their own hopes, dreams and goals, and they should be treated as equals. The games have always had tons of catching in them, but I really never felt it was meant to be how the world operated, it was just a part of the games. I felt the anime had done a good job of addressing this, sure some trainers caught a few more Pokemon than others (200 for Gary? Really I never thought that was implied at all, I would have thought more like 40), some of which seemed like a bit too much to me, but nothing like trying to catch all of them. I really thought Pokemon had a good sense of self awareness when they introduced Team Plasma and I felt good about the franchise as a whole. If this truly is the new direction of the franchise, then I guess it just isn't for me, because I find it disgusting.

 

[Nicolas721]

I personally find this sarcasm and pessimism highly unamusing. Try to have some more positivity and take your losses with less disappointment.

I just tried to make people laugh with their worst fears becoming true. If you think that's a bad thing, well, that's why I posted a warning that if you didn't like exaggerating stuff it was better to skip my post. Also for your information I don't think this series has been a total loss so far and no moment has actually left me angry or disappointed, I quite liked episodes 4 & 5.