Starter Discussion

[Norzan]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

Chestnaught hidden ability is Guardian wich is a defense variation of Speed Boost and Delphox has Magic Veil or something wich cuts special attacks damage that target it in half.

I too saw that picture from 4Chan (where it is important to take with a pinch of salt), but I am basing my guesses on the list you see when you search for the Ability in the Dex. There are abilities we didn't know about yet, namely Grass Pelt and Symbiosis. There isn't a webpage with this, but this is a good idea on what was available:

Data - Ability Descriptions | Smogon Forums

Guardian and Magic Veil aren't on the list. Maybe they are a super-secret thing that won't be revealed until you have a Pokemon with that ability, but I doubt that because Event Pokemon's abilities are there too (Victory Star, Multitype), in which case, the reference you might have seen is possibly a fake.

Thanks for reading.

Your guess was right, Chespin line hidden ability is Bulletproof and Fennekin line hidden ability is Magician, it has been confirmed. Guess Guardian and Magic Coat are fake abilities.

 

[ShakerMaker]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

/

Chespin has a varied array of attacking options, my favourite grass type ever so far!

Would you be so kind as to share a link to it's known moveset?
I mean, I LOVE Chespin, but it would be nice to know it.

I'm not too sure buddy, i'm only up to lvl 15 so far, but he's already learned bite, vine whip, leech seed and rollout! decent start i reckon.

 

[winstein]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

Your guess was right, Chespin line hidden ability is Bulletproof and Fennekin line hidden ability is Magician, it has been confirmed. Guess Guardian and Magic Coat are fake abilities.

Yeah. Speaking of, Bulletproof is an interesting ability because of its effect of blocking attacks with ball or bomb. This essentially means that stuff like Energy Ball, Magnet Bomb and Shadow Ball are blocked. Perhaps the most interesting thing that is blocked is Sludge Bomb, which would be Chesnaught's weakness, but being immune to this attack is a big advantage. Weather Ball is another important move that is blocked.

I don't remember where it's mentioned, but I thought I saw "bullet" as a mention as a blocking type, but if true, then Focus Blast and Bullet Punch are blocked, which is great. Why Focus Blast? Because its Japanese name is "Fighting Spirit Bullet".

thanks for reading.

 

[Eeveeanne]

Kalos Starters (Discussion and Theory Thread)

We've had a pretty surprising round of starters here in X & Y. Some of us are impressed with them while others feel disappointed. Do believe that the starters are balanced in power? If not how do you feel gamefreak could have made them so? Do you think this is on purpose? If so then for what reason?
(This thread comes with an attachment of Serebii's assessment of the 3 starters of Kalos so take a read about their analysis of them, does it sound fair to you?)

Also, how did you feel about your starter? Were you pleased with it? Did you start over and choose a different starter because of your disappointment with the current starter? Is the starter a ditch after Pokemon Bank comes out?

I played all the way through with Fennikin and to hear that Delphox was the weakest of starters made me feel a little heated. Maybe I'm a little old fashioned or something but I believe that your starter should be one of your strongest in your corner to fight with. So what up with the imbalance here? The lack of moves, the non-ablility to balance out the defense, and all around the more cons of this pokemon that pros. Chesnaught is seen as the strongest of the 3 followed by Greninja but that is only because of it's secondary ability. Why not have all the starters have a fair advantage against each other? (I know I sound bruised about Delphox but I promise that's not the case here)

So checkout Serebii.Net analysis (I take no credit for this at all! It's all Serebii's work okay!?!?) and post it here.

 

[Stratelier]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

Serebii is speaking about the metagame. I can agree with a lot of points they make:

- Protean ability is broken. Don't get me wrong - changing your type to match whatever attack you're using is an entertaining ability (like Color Change, but for your attacks rather than your opponent's - and on a sidenote, Kecleon's Hidden Ability is now Protean) but currently it also means you get STAB on EVERY ATTACK you make. Good news for Kecleon (who is otherwise lackluster in power) but for a fast and hard striker like Greninja, is it any wonder the frog is everywhere? I wouldn't be surprised at all if it gets nerfed in G7, namely by changing the user's type after making their move (in which case you'd only get STAB by using the same type of move consecutively; if you're constantly switching types, no STAB for you).

- Delphox's limited movepool is limited. Make no mistake, Delphox has great Sp.Atk, good Sp.Def, and excels at its elements' natural strengths (e.g. vs. Grass/Bug/Ice/Steel and Poison/Fighting), but when a large strategic aspect of Pokemon revolves around equipping off-type moves for extra coverage against surprise-typed opponents, Delphox's lack of options really can hurt. (For comparison, Espeon may also have a limited movepool but it at least gets Dazzling Gleam, a strong Fairy move for those pesky Darks.) If you're up against a Mega/Gengar you can equip a Kasib berry and hope to go Psychic on its Poison typing, but if you're up against any other Ghost, and especially if you're up against a Dark, Delphox is one trapped fox (stay at your own risk vs. switch at your own risk). Mystical Fire is a fun signature move and Magician is basically Pickpocket 2.0 (steals item if the move hits, physical contact not required), but neither of them are very useful in the larger metagame.

- Delphox's weakness to Stealth Rock isn't Delphox's problem, it's Stealth Rock's problem. That move is broken and has always been broken since it was introduced in G4. The only saving grace is it's not a TM, and it's easier to remove from play (i.e. Defog). You can still bet that, once Pokemon Bank opens, Stealth Rock will be back with a vengeance.

 

[Garren]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

I guess Chesnaught may be inspired by a football player partially, which would make sense alongside his build, Dex, and moveset, as the TCG card has one of his attacks as "Touchdown".

 

[Almonds]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

I've heard from a friend that Greninja is more than satisfying. She doesn't play competitively, and only works around in-game, but even without the Protean ability, Greninja works just fine. The only thing she complained was the lack of special moves for Greninja (since most of Greninja's level up moves are physical for some reason), but it was a minor thing to her because Surf was enough to get by.

 

[The Outrage]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

Serebii is speaking about the metagame. I can agree with a lot of points they make:

- Protean ability is broken. Don't get me wrong - changing your type to match whatever attack you're using is an entertaining ability (like Color Change, but for your attacks rather than your opponent's - and on a sidenote, Kecleon's Hidden Ability is now Protean) but currently it also means you get STAB on EVERY ATTACK you make. Good news for Kecleon (who is otherwise lackluster in power) but for a fast and hard striker like Greninja, is it any wonder the frog is everywhere? I wouldn't be surprised at all if it gets nerfed in G7, namely by changing the user's type after making their move (in which case you'd only get STAB by using the same type of move consecutively; if you're constantly switching types, no STAB for you).

It's only broken depending on who gets it. The speed certainly helps Greninja, but its low defenses keeps it from utilizing Protean as a defensive ability by switching into resistances (and even then you can out maneuver it). It's also not as if it has such a wide move pool that it makes it unpredictable as what it can turn into. It's SAtk also isn't so high that getting STAB on everything makes it incredibly powerful--it's the fact that it even gets STAB on everything that makes its ~100 base SAtk usable in a world where we have people topping 150 offensive base stats.

Doing as you suggest would make Protean a useless ability on slow Pokemon since it's primary utility would be for defensive plays (which Greninja can't pull off) which won't work if you don't change your type before your opponent attacks. If Greninja didn't have the mix-sweeper build but instead had the defenses of a typical bulky water with its speed (at the expense of it's attack and even some of its SAtk) then it might be broken. It gets STAB on everything and can play defensively. Right now it can only utilize its ability for pure offense.

 

[Doggelicious]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

I chose Froakie as my starter and must say I'm really satisfied. Not only does it have (in my opinion) the coolest final evolution, but it's Protean ability which I've just started to play with seems really interesting, as it adds another layer of strategy to the moveset. For example using Shadow Sneak to counter a possbile fighting move seems hilarious! I was a little bit disappointed by its level-up moveset though, since (as has already been said) there was a lot of physical moves which doesn't go all too well with the stats and a lot of the other moves just seemed like they were added because Game Freak wanted to emphasise the ninja aspect (Smokescreen, Substitute, Haze, etc.). Also I'm a bit disappointed in Water Shuriken, since it seemed like such a cool move on paper, but its "hit 2-5 times"-thing (and the fact that the RNG gods hate me) is such a let down...

 

[Almonds]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

Also I'm a bit disappointed in Water Shuriken, since it seemed like such a cool move on paper, but its "hit 2-5 times"-thing (and the fact that the RNG gods hate me) is such a let down...

Actually, considering Water Shuriken has priority, it's a relatively good move. From what I heard, 3 hits of Water Shuriken is already better than Aqua Jet. But yeah... having to rely on RNG sucks.

 

[Stratelier]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

Protean's only broken depending on who gets it. The speed certainly helps Greninja, but its low defenses keeps it from utilizing Protean as a defensive ability by switching into resistances (and even then you can out maneuver it). It's also not as if it has such a wide move pool that it makes it unpredictable as what it can turn into. It's SAtk also isn't so high that getting STAB on everything makes it incredibly powerful--it's the fact that it even gets STAB on everything that makes its ~100 base SAtk usable in a world where we have people topping 150 offensive base stats.

Doing as you suggest would make Protean a useless ability on slow Pokemon since it's primary utility would be for defensive plays (which Greninja can't pull off) which won't work if you don't change your type before your opponent attacks. If Greninja didn't have the mix-sweeper build but instead had the defenses of a typical bulky water with its speed (at the expense of it's attack and even some of its SAtk) then it might be broken. It gets STAB on everything and can play defensively. Right now it can only utilize its ability for pure offense.

Okay, I guess I was a little premature in speculating that. Of moves 80 power or higher that don't already match Greninja's normal typing, we have Extrasensory, Hyper Beam, obligatory Ice techniques, and Dig -- none of them much threat to its Fire counterpart Delphox. Yes it can learn Rock Slide too but it's better off sticking with Surf and Dark Pulse which it gets STAB from anyway, Protean or not.

I was a little bit disappointed by its level-up moveset though, since (as has already been said) there was a lot of physical moves which doesn't go all too well with the stats and a lot of the other moves just seemed like they were added because Game Freak wanted to emphasise the ninja aspect (Smokescreen, Substitute, Haze, etc.). Also I'm a bit disappointed in Water Shuriken, since it seemed like such a cool move on paper, but its "hit 2-5 times"-thing (and the fact that the RNG gods hate me) is such a let down...

Water Shuriken DOES have increased priority so it always goes first, but in terms of power it is indeed on the low end of the multi-strike spectrum. I'm not sure Greninja's Sp.Atk being higher than physical Attack is that much to complain about when the difference between the stats is only about 10%. Not like Delphox whose Sp.Atk outclasses its physical by over 50%.

 

[bluestarfish]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

I'm finding it difficult to find a niche for my delphox against the NPC's. I'm poking around at different team ideas for online battling, and I'm not sure I'll be able to use delphox...but who knows. I'm not a good battler even if I somewhat understand the popular meta games that exist right now, so I probably shouldn't think too hard about delphox.

I'm not surprised by it though, most starters aren't very competitive to begin with (gen 5 helped some starters with hidden abilities, but starter pokemon still are often outclassed by something that does the same thing better).

 

[Doggelicious]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

Water Shuriken DOES have increased priority so it always goes first, but in terms of power it is indeed on the low end of the multi-strike spectrum. I'm not sure Greninja's Sp.Atk being higher than physical Attack is that much to complain about when the difference between the stats is only about 10%. Not like Delphox whose Sp.Atk outclasses its physical by over 50%.

Now that you mentioned it I had completely forgot that it was a priority move, which I guess makes it a bit more useful (although with Greninjas speed stat it's not really that important). My main problem with the move is probably that it's so unreliable, get 5 hits and it's a really potent physical water move, get 2 and you might suffer a fatal retaliation from your opponent.

All in all though, I'm just happy we finally got a water starter that is of the "fragile speedster" type and not bulky but slow.

 

[Winterdaze]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

As far as battling prowess goes, from an in-game perspective I'd have to say that all three starters are more than satisfying. Their secondary typings alone give them the versatility to stay useful throughout the game, and none are seriously disadvantaged in how they match up against the game (unlike say, Meganium in Johto).

Competitively Greninja is the obvious standout, its unparalleled versatility and unpredictability easily makes it the second best starter after Blaziken. Though it is surprisingly easy to wall, seeing as 95/103 attacking stats can only do so much, but then that's where U-turn comes in. Oh and if all that wasn't enough, it gets Spikes and eats Starmie for breakfast.

Chesnaught isn't as lucrative or versatile as Greninja, but what it can do, it does very well. Its typing combined with Bulletproof gives it amazing synergy with most spinblockers, and allows it to counter a host of dangerous threats, making it easy to slot into defensive cores. Just make sure you're packing something that can reliably eat a Brave Bird.

Delphox actually has some great stats, its just...everything else that's the problem. Its movepool is very sparse, making it very easy to wall. It could actually function quite well as hit and run attacker if it weren't for that Fire/Psychic typing, which just makes it so easy to wear down and trap. It's not an awful Pokemon by any means, just not particularly good at what it was designed to do.

 

[Stratelier]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

Just realized that in a battle between the two of them, Delphox actually does BETTER against a Protean Greninja than the regular Torrent Greninja. Why? Whatever Greninja launches at Delphox, it'll lose either the Water or Dark typing, leaving it wide open to a full-power Fire or Psychic counter. And Delphox does have some Special bulk to it to take that first hit.

 

[Fairy Ice Ricky]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

Just realized that in a battle between the two of them, Delphox actually does BETTER against a Protean Greninja than the regular Torrent Greninja. Why? Whatever Greninja launches at Delphox, it'll lose either the Water or Dark typing, leaving it wide open to a full-power Fire or Psychic counter. And Delphox does have some Special bulk to it to take that first hit.

I know most people (that I know anyway) like to run U-turn on their Greninja, and I would think that Delphox would take a hefty amount of damage from a STAB physical Bug-type attack like that, especially since it would be super effective.

EDIT: As soon as I posted this I remembered that Fire types resist Bug-type attacks. @__@;;

 

[Stratelier]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

EDIT: As soon as I posted this I remembered that Fire types resist Bug-type attacks. @__@;;

If you have the time to add that, you have the time to correct your post.

My Delphox happens to have a Defense-boosting Nature and I've done a bit of EV training on the same stat. Damn Rock techniques....

 

[The Outrage]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

Too bad you'll have to decide whether you're getting hit by a Surf or a Dark Pulse.....and unless you've EV Trained to be especially bulky, I have my doubts you're surviving any SE hit from Greninja.

 

[Zweilous]

^Yeah, going by calculations, if Stealth Rocks are down there's no chance Delphox is surviving either attack unless you decide to run it bulky and even then its limping out the door if it survives. Even ignoring Stealth Rocks Delphox has a good chance of being one shot and guaranteed to be 2HKO'd.

 

[G50]

I started with Froakie and then IV bred and EV Trained a Protean one. Depending on moveset, I think Greninja could really benefit from being used in Double Battles as opposed to Single Battles. With the right support on the rest of the team, it could work very well.

One thing I've tried is a status condition hassle moveset. Not sure that would work well in most cases, would probably be more suited for single battles. At the same time, Trick Room and Inner Focus would butcher that type of thing.

Greninja sure has a ton of possibilities. With Chesnaught having Assault Vest available, I'd probably not risk a head-to-head battle between them. Bulletproof is interesting for Chesnaught, but at the same time blocks only a few SE Special attacks that would be used against it.

In-game I really liked using Greninja and Delphox, though with Torrent during my first run-through Greninja struggled quite a bit on its own against Gym Leaders.