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Striving for equality: Why Bulbagarden is taking a pro-LGBTQ stance

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Because Bulbanews is allowed to post stories about anything Bulbagarden related, not just Pokémon news. Also, this is an editorial, not a news article.
That rather hampers its utility as a Pokémon news source; unless I'm missing something, there's only the one RSS feed, and it lacks tags or categories for filtering out the meta stuff.
 
Good on bulbapedia for tackling this issue! I believe people on all walks of life deserve respect, and people shouldn't be judged over what they cannot help. I wish more websites would take on this policy. Hell, I wish this whole country would take on this policy!
 
That rather hampers its utility as a Pokémon news source; unless I'm missing something, there's only the one RSS feed, and it lacks tags or categories for filtering out the meta stuff.

We cover all aspects of our fandom, generally. As for tags and filters, I can bring that up with Archaic to see what can be done.
 
That is why I am againsts homosexuALITY, but not against homosexuALS
The "love the sinner, hate the sin" mantra though can be just as bad however. You're basically saying you're against who a person is, but doubling back and saying "oh, but I'm not against you". That's like calling a black person "one of the good ones" or something along those lines. If you're against homosexuality, you're against homosexuals. I don't think you have any particular venom towards them, but it's still a hateful statement to make.

I personally would like to know where you get your numbers from. Whenever I see an unqualified statistic, I want to know where it comes from.
Well, for one, there's no state that bans heterosexual marriage.

So it's a hateful statement to state that I believe that something someone is doing is wrong and unhealthy? There ARE some OTHER statistics out there that indicate that gay males MAY have a shorter life expentancy that straight males, but according to this article on the subject, no one seems to be willing to try to tabulate gay men and straight men by the same standard, which confuses me, because it sounds like something that the pro-homosexuality people would at least attempt as a counter-strike.

Homosexual life expectancy and the gay agenda

As for my statement being the equivalent of saying "You're one of the good ones," that's bullshit. Nowhere do I say that any specific person, homosexual or not, is better than any other person. Neither did I compare homosexuals as a whole to heterosexuals as a whole; ALL people have their own problems, and it's not my job to fix the world as you guys seem to believe you are doing. However, if I believe that someone is putting themselves in unnecessary danger and I say nothing, then I am responsible for not warning them of the perceived danger. I don't think I'm wrong, but even if I am, it does NOT make me evil to try to warn someone of danger when I honestly believe they are in danger. However, claiming that I am somehow "bigoted" for questioning someone's BEHAVIOR and MENTAL STATE (which is not at all the same as racism, which is based on something that the person in question has had no choice in the matter about and cannot change no matter how hard they try) reeks of bigotry against the very IDEA that that person's behavior and mental state might not be normal or healthy.

On the subject of "banning" marriage, I'll state something I've stated before and will state again: The state should stay out of regulating marriages at all, because it's none of the government's business.
 
being apart of the lgbtq community myself i greatly appreciate the support bmgf gives to this group. it makes me happy coming on here knowing that this forum is supportive and welcoming. thank you so much!

oh, and guys, peace. it's all about love and tolerance. this world is better off without hate.
 
@Nuvakat:

I'm guessing that by "reporting" they mean making a formal complaint against a boss, student, etc. It is certainly possible to avoid making a complaint like that in a formal setting, and then report on a survey later that they have done so.

Of course, that is just my best guess, and I don't know the truth any more then you do. However, you did ask for statistics, but then later say:

Nuvakat said:
A poll shows what people SAY happened; but if the truth about so many of the supposed statistics went unreported, then how do we know that the people who DID report abuse were indeed telling the truth? What if the people polled were only saying what they thought the interviewers wanted to hear?

If you believe this, then why ask for statistics in the first place? By that logic, we can never be sure of any statistic - after all, it could be falsified or people could be lying, and so forth. It really comes across like you're asking for evidence, and then immediately disbelieving it when it is presented. With that philosophy, there is no point in asking.

Anyways, I can speak from personal experience that the harassment towards myself and other GLBT people I know doesn't really compare to the "harassment" of any homophobic people I know. In fact I don't personally know any homophobe who has to endure much harassment at all. But hey - I could just be lying.

You're guessing. They're guessing. We're all guessing. It's still YOUR guess, and why should YOUR guess be any better than MY guess, or MY guess any better than YOUR guess?

So all in all, it isn't really about "inclusion" at all -- it's about whose guesses we're going to believe as fact, and whose we're going to EXCLUDE.

I am not at ALL in favor of abusing human beings, and that includes you and your compatriots. Jesus hung out with harlots and tax collectors, which were then considered to be the scum of the earth; His fiery words were always reserved for the self-righteous hypocrites who were the church at that time. If He were here today, no doubt He would be decrying the state of where we've gone so far from His teachings. I cannot speak here on what the Bible says about homosexuality, but I will say what it says about judging others: "Fool! First remove the plank that is in your own eye, and then you will be able to remove the speck that is in your brother's eye."

Would you have rather I just disbelieved you in the first place and not stated why?

----

being apart of the lgbtq community myself i greatly appreciate the support bmgf gives to this group. it makes me happy coming on here knowing that this forum is supportive and welcoming. thank you so much!

oh, and guys, peace. it's all about love and tolerance. this world is better off without hate.

Love cannot tolerate what does harm to those they love. Therefore, if I love the world, I must hate what would do the world harm, even if it costs me my own life.
 
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Why is this on Bulbanews? I have no idea what prompted this, there's no explanation of context, and I can't imagine how it's relevant to anything but the forums.

It is an 'Editorial', not a regular news article. Just like columns and opinion pieces.

Also,

Just as a quick reminder for all:
This isn't a debate thread.

Furthermore, as the new rules state, describing homosexuality as a disease or something that people should seek to cure is not acceptable. Any further posts to this effect will be infracted.

Conversely, if you see somebody posting similarly inflammatory statements, please don't take them to task over it. I realize it's tempting, but leave them be. Rest assured that the mods will deal with such things on your behalf.

ATTENTION

As a general reminder, this is NOT a Nicoleta's Bus thread. This means per the new policy, negative opinions of homosexuality don't belong in this thread.

So, there is no need to cut each other's throats. Calm down, please.
 
How about the American Psychiatric Association?

Lesbian, gay, and bisexual people in the United States encounter extensive prejudice, discrimination, and violence because of their sexual orientation. Intense prejudice against lesbians, gay men, and bisexual people was widespread throughout much of the 20th century. Public opinion studies over the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s routinely showed that, among large segments of the public, lesbian, gay, and bisexual people were the target of strongly held negative attitudes. More recently, public opinion has increasingly opposed sexual orientation discrimination, but expressions of hostility toward lesbians and gay men remain common in contemporary American society. Prejudice against bisexuals appears to exist at comparable levels. In fact, bisexual individuals may face discrimination from some lesbian and gay people as well as from heterosexual people.

Sexual orientation discrimination takes many forms. Severe antigay prejudice is reflected in the high rate of harassment and violence directed toward lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals in American society. Numerous surveys indicate that verbal harassment and abuse are nearly universal experiences among lesbian, gay, and bisexual people. Also, discrimination against lesbian, gay, and bisexual people in employment and housing appears to remain widespread. The HIV/AIDS pandemic is another area in which prejudice and discrimination against lesbian, gay, and bisexual people have had negative effects. Early in the pandemic, the assumption that HIV/AIDS was a “gay disease” contributed to the delay in addressing the massive social upheaval that AIDS would generate. Gay and bisexual men have been disproportionately affected by this disease. The association of HIV/AIDS with gay and bisexual men and the inaccurate belief that some people held that all gay and bisexual men were infected served to further stigmatize lesbian, gay, and bisexual people.

Not a statistic per se. So, here are some actual statistics.

•The vast majority of victims of anti-lesbian/gay violence - possibly more than 80% - never report the incident, often due to fear of being "outed." --New York Gay and Lesbian Anti-Violence Project Annual Report, 1996.

How in the world would anyone know this if those incidents are never reported? The very fact that the source is able to make this claim with certainty indicates that their statistics MAY indeed be questionable. Note that I did not say that it PROVES that their statistics are questionable; for all we know each statistic was taken by an entirely different statician (or set of staticians).

Now that I have confirmed that one source at least provides these statistics, my next enquiry is this: how were the statistics discovered, anyway? (This question comes especially to mind concerning the paragraph above). A poll shows what people SAY happened; but if the truth about so many of the supposed statistics went unreported, then how do we know that the people who DID report abuse were indeed telling the truth? What if the people polled were only saying what they thought the interviewers wanted to hear? Once again, I am NOT saying that these reports are any percent false or true, as I have no way whatsoever of knowing that. I'm just pointing out that we have no way whatsoever of knowing that.

(In case you haven't guessed, I've recently been reading "How To Lie With Statistics," and it's more than rubbing off on me. The fact is that this world is a lot more complex than me think it is, which is why it is our job to closely examine EVERYTHING handed to us, including this very sentence. That is why I ask these questions; not to force you to see it my way, but just to give you a different perspective. I mean no harm to any man, woman, bisexual, or transgender -- I simply am interested in shedding light where it must be shed.)

I'll admit that I've only skimmed this text, but regarding to how they most likely know not everything is reported, is I guess indeed the fear-factor
Take rape for example. There are many woman who don't report this, due to a feeling of shame, thinking it is their own fault, etc.
However, in an anonymous investigation/research (sorry, English isn't my first language and I'm not sure what word I should use, but it should be understandable)
Anyway, in such a thing, the rate of woman who'd report it is higher then the actual amount of woman who have reported it
Either they're lying, or what is somewhat more likely, they don't mind telling if they're anonymous

I guess it's something similar
 
Love cannot tolerate what does harm to those they love. Therefore, if I love the world, I must hate what would do the world harm, even if it costs me my own life.

i do not like how you just completely ruin my wonderful statement by adding your bigoted opinions. please, if you will, keep your mouth shut and debate your opinions elsewhere.
 
ok guys, forget what I said...
since It's considered as flaming
not trying to force my opinion here
I only saying that gay people can change too...
peace of you :)

You can't change your sexual orientation. Stop saying you can. That is some of the Hate Speech that Bulbagarden is referring to... >.> You're implying that Homosexuality is an issue and that it can be "Cured"... It can't. You know why? Cuz It's not wrong or a disease.
 
First of all it is pretty troubling that the first link you bring up is one that talks about the "homosexual agenda," which makes it sound like wanting to be treated equally is some kind of dastardly scheme. But anyways. I notice you haven't addressed my point about the statistics.

However, claiming that I am somehow "bigoted" for questioning someone's BEHAVIOR and MENTAL STATE (which is not at all the same as racism, which is based on something that the person in question has had no choice in the matter about and cannot change no matter how hard they try) reeks of bigotry against the very IDEA that that person's behavior and mental state might not be normal or healthy.

That's exactly the idea though - GLTB people do not feel that they had a choice in the matter, and that it is so intrinsic to them the only way to "get rid" of it is through sexual repression. The life expectancies of gay men aren't really a relevant argument against homosexuality, because it isn't something that can be changed anyway. It's just an unfortunate fact, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if the reason gay men's life expectancies were shorter is because they are treated as second-class citizens.

There are of course some religious groups which claim the opposite, but I have doubts as to their effectiveness.

But this wasn't intended to be a debate thread and I don't want to drag this out any longer, so it might be better to continue this through PM if you'd like.
 
It's no different than banning racist comments, or anti-Semitic comments, or what have you. There's a difference between judging someone for their character, which bigotry reflects a lot about, and judging someone for something that has nothing to do with their character such as who they're attracted to. Being a bigot is also a choice you made, being gay isn't.

Look up the FBI hate crime statistics, and tell me how many crimes against straight people for being straight there are compared to attacks against LGBT people for being LGBT. In fact, it’s only recently where the FBI was even required to record statistics for transgender victims. You'll find all those statistics on the FBI website.

The “unhealthy” argument against homosexuality is a common argument but it’s total BS.

There is no evidence that homosexuality is “unhealthy.” I know plenty of gay people and couples who have lasted well into their golden years, and who live very healthy lives.

The study often cited by anti-gay bigots that claimed gay people only live to be like 40 or so was done a long time ago by someone who had a very anti-gay stance in the first place, and the study was highly flawed. Your link is to an anti-gay conservative website, who are known for picking and choosing things out of scientific studies in order to push their agenda. See truthwinsout.org for more info on that. They also often cite an example of a little boy who they claim was turned from gay to straight, but who later killed himself later in life because of the damage that “therapy” did to him. Leaders of the "ex gay" group exodus international also admitted they were wrong and admitted they were still gay, and apologized to the gay community for it.

There IS a lot of evidence however, that homophobia is unhealthy and harmful. Gay people have higher rates of suicide, but why do you think that is? People don’t just become suicidal magically because they’re attracted to the same sex. It’s because people like YOU give them a hard time about it their ENTIRE lives, because their family members reject them, and stuff like that. It also has other negative psychological effects, making them more likely to make poor decisions. Being gay doesn’t just magically make you a diseased-ridden and depressed person. There are other factors that contribute to those things.

HIV infection rates are also lower in countries that allow gay marriage. If it was homosexuality that is unhealthy and not homophobia then why would that happen? When you claim being gay is "unhealthy" all you're really doing is trying to stereotype them.

Assuming it’s all due to being gay is a correlation/causation fallacy.

Plus I doubt the main reason you’re opposed isn’t because you’re so concerned with gay people's health, otherwise why not condemn and call immoral people who eat at fatty foods, people who smoke or drink alcohol, people who go skydiving and risk their lives for thrill, etc. It’s just an excuse for bigotry. We do unhealthy things every day. Sitting in front of a computer or sitting around playing pokemon isn’t exactly healthy either.

Saying "hate the sin love the sinner" is nothing but empty rhetoric to attempt to mask your bigotry, to make it seem like a “nice” and acceptable stance. You can CLAIM you "love" me all you want, but when your actions speak differently, I'm not going to believe you. Neither will anyone else who is smart enough to see through that two-faced statement.

If you "loved" me you wouldn't believe my relationships are worthless and want me to change even though I'm perfectly happy and healthy. You wouldn't want me to throw away my happiness just to satisfy your personal prejudice. You wouldn't believe that my happiness and the happiness of my partner is "immoral."

If you "loved" gay people you wouldn’t be opposed to a policy that bans harassing them.

If you "loved" gay people you also wouldn’t be using the effects of discrimination as an excuse to discriminate against them even further, to stereotype them and blame the victims.
Love is more than just empty words. It’s also action. Don’t expect people to believe you just because you say so. Prove it with the way you act.

Get to know some gay couples. I mean REALLY get to know them. Particularly some older couples. You'll see that they're really not any different from straight couples. You'll see that they're not evil or unhealthy or whatever.
 
Personally -- and without reading ANY of the other posts here -- I believe that everyone is free to do what they wish, but everyone is responsible to face the consequences of what they do. This goes for EVERYONE and EVERY SITUATION, including BOTH SIDES of this debate. I personally believe that homosexuality is immoral and unhealthy, but I also believe that the government should stay out of telling people who they can and can't marry. Everyone has their own life to live and their own consequences to experience. That is why I am againsts homosexuALITY, but not against homosexuALS. Everyone needs love, and it is only in God's hands to judge, NOT OUR OWN. I will allow others to live their lives, fighting only with prayer.

That is my stand. That is my creed.

That is one of the most hateful things I have ever heard. Saying you're against Homosexuality is the same as saying you're against Homosexuals. Sexual Orientation is a part of who someone is. No one has a choice in who they love or what gender they like. What you display is homophobia and bigotry. Religion has no part here... Don't go around talking about it here... no one wants to hear it. Keep it in the Church. Homosexuality is NOT wrong and it IS natural.

-----

That is why I am againsts homosexuALITY, but not against homosexuALS
The "love the sinner, hate the sin" mantra though can be just as bad however. You're basically saying you're against who a person is, but doubling back and saying "oh, but I'm not against you". That's like calling a black person "one of the good ones" or something along those lines. If you're against homosexuality, you're against homosexuals. I don't think you have any particular venom towards them, but it's still a hateful statement to make.

I personally would like to know where you get your numbers from. Whenever I see an unqualified statistic, I want to know where it comes from.
Well, for one, there's no state that bans heterosexual marriage.

So it's a hateful statement to state that I believe that something someone is doing is wrong and unhealthy? There ARE some OTHER statistics out there that indicate that gay males MAY have a shorter life expentancy that straight males, but according to this article on the subject, no one seems to be willing to try to tabulate gay men and straight men by the same standard, which confuses me, because it sounds like something that the pro-homosexuality people would at least attempt as a counter-strike.

Homosexual life expectancy and the gay agenda

As for my statement being the equivalent of saying "You're one of the good ones," that's bullshit. Nowhere do I say that any specific person, homosexual or not, is better than any other person. Neither did I compare homosexuals as a whole to heterosexuals as a whole; ALL people have their own problems, and it's not my job to fix the world as you guys seem to believe you are doing. However, if I believe that someone is putting themselves in unnecessary danger and I say nothing, then I am responsible for not warning them of the perceived danger. I don't think I'm wrong, but even if I am, it does NOT make me evil to try to warn someone of danger when I honestly believe they are in danger. However, claiming that I am somehow "bigoted" for questioning someone's BEHAVIOR and MENTAL STATE (which is not at all the same as racism, which is based on something that the person in question has had no choice in the matter about and cannot change no matter how hard they try) reeks of bigotry against the very IDEA that that person's behavior and mental state might not be normal or healthy.

On the subject of "banning" marriage, I'll state something I've stated before and will state again: The state should stay out of regulating marriages at all, because it's none of the government's business.

Your being a bigot. Sexuality has nothing to do with Life Length. It all has to do with how the person takes care of themselves. And yes, Gay Men can have a healthy life. -_- You're just so ignorant. And Homosexuality is NOT a choice. It is something a person is born with. And don't tell me, "Oh it's a sin"... Cuz I am the LAST person you wanna bring Religion to! Religion is certainly a choice, yet why is it considered "Hate Speech" to bash it? Hmm, hypocritical much?
 
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GENERAL NOTE:

Please don't debate the issue with Nuvacat .

He's stated his opinions. The mods dealt with anything that might have needed dealt with (if any). Trying to argue with him any further doesn't help this policy at all; it just increase the odds of a debate full of specifically the sort of opinions this policy is against.
 
I just made an account to post in this thread. I'm a 19-year-old gay male, and I come from a community (and a family) that does not accept gay people. When I came out in high school, I lost a lot of my friends. I went to the internet, and made friends over Pokemon MMO -- friends who accepted me for who I was and didn't hate me for my homosexuality, and they gave me a home that I didn't otherwise have. I want to thank Bulbagarden for taking this stance and announcing it publicly, because I know that there are more people out there like me, and I want them to have a home just like I found. Thanks, Bulbagarden. I hope other people and groups see this and follow your example, because the world needs more LGBTQ-safe places.
 
I would like to know what you would say to this couple and their family: depfox - YouTube Would you tell them that they’re unhealthy, that they should get divorced and send their kids back to foster care and then attempt to marry women instead? Do you honestly believe that would be better for them, and that you encouraging them to destroy their very happiness and stability is just you expressing your "love" for them? Sorry, I just don't buy that, trying to claim that perpetuating anti-gay hostility in society is an act of "love" is BS and just a way to cover up your bigotry. You see them as "unhealthy" only because that's how you want to see them. Try looking at them without anti-gay bias, and tell me that they're a bad or unhealthy family, tell me that they'd be better off apart. I dare you.

LGBT people know what's best for themselves. They don't need you to tell them they're "unhealthy." I already know the state of my OWN health, which is between me and my doctor, not up to you.
 
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This forum should be free of bullying and discrimination. This is a place for people to share their interests in Pokémon.
 
Just wanted to pop in and say thank you, Bulbapedia! As a gay male myself, and as a longtime user of Bulbapedia, it's great to see this pro-LGBTQ stance being taken here.
 
I'd be more in favor of your new policy if you ended it with the first paragraph: "...Bulbagarden, as a Pokémon fansite; shouldn't be taking [a] stance on political issues."

I, like many pokemon playing parents, use this site to stay competitive with (*ahem*, whup the stuffin out of) the neigborhood boys who play pokemon with my teenage daughters. It's great way to build relationships / assess character with the neighborhood kids.

Sexuality (of whatever stripe) is not an apropriate topic of discussion for a site which focuses on a video game marketed to early teens. I strongly urge bulba* staff to keep the site pokemon focused and sexually/politically silent. "Pro-whatever" is not apropriate for a children's game.

-Dad
 
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