Striving for Equality

[Archaic]

About a month ago or so, there was a series of incidents in homosexuality-related threads in the "News of the World" forum. These incidents got the staff of Bulbagarden to rethink our views of the stance of these forums toward discussions of homosexuality, bisexuality, transgenderism, and so on.

We came to three conclusions.

The first is that, outside of maybe Nicoleta's Campaign Bus (access to that forum is limited to only those who request it and are approved by the staff), we don't want Bulbagarden to be a battlefield of the so-called "culture wars".

The second is that the time for neutrality on this issue is well behind us. We are in 2012, and it's about time to stand up and say that this is not a matter for debate. Homosexuality, bisexuality and transgenderism are normal and natural, and it needs to be accepted. Homophobia is wrong, morally repulsive, and it, like racism and sexism, serve only to perpetuate injustice.

The third is that we have many LGBTQ members on Bulbagarden. These members may often be subjected to the kind of hardship that the rest of us would find hard to imagine. From the fear of being outed, to the risk of attacks if they are, to the plethora of people who denounce or dismiss them in the news every day. They chose to come here, to this community, to find friends. This community should support them.

We are NOT asking every last member, or staff member, to agree with us, or argue for this point of view. Everyone is free to reach their own conclusions. What we do demand is that people respect the rules and policies we have decided on as a result of our conclusions.

These are:

1. "Debate" of LGBTQ (Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer/questioning) issues.
The only forum where we will tolerate negative views of LGBTQ people (and make no mistake, they will be barely tolerated, not accepted) will be in appropriate discussions in Nicoleta's Bus. Posting that sort of view anywhere else will likely result in significant infractions, depending on the circumstances.

2. Support threads
We will welcome the positive discussion of LGBTQ issues in the support threads over in Serious Business. As the name implies, support threads provide a place for LGBTQ members to discuss their experiences without the worry of facing criticism or misunderstanding. These discussions will allow other members to express solidarity and support, perhaps to offer a helping hand (and just so we're clear, "Have you heard about this way to stop being gay" is *not* helping), or to celebrate happy moments with them. Negative views posted in those threads will be infracted (pointless post, flaming and baiting or abuse and harassement, as appropriate).

3. Nicoleta's Bus
Additional measures will be taken in the Bus to make it easier for victims of homophobia to react to it. Details will be posted in the Bus.

4. Social Groups and blogs
Social groups and blogs advocating homophobia and social groups with homophobic threads will not be tolerated.

5. Other forms of discrimination
Other forms of hatred, such as racism, and sexism, will generally be given the same treatment as above, although some topics may be altogether banned (instead of tolerated) in Nicoleta's Bus; if they are, the rules of the Bus will say so.

(Please note that this thread is not in Nicoleta's Bus. As such, outbursts against LGBTQ people here will be severely punished.)

 

[Aestivate]

This is utterly glorious.

 

[Falconwing]

I'm in full support of this. Bravo.

 

[jda95]

It's so refreshing to see a website openly express their support like this. Because in the end, it's more than just trying to prevent conflict. It's saying that we accept people for who they are. The many LGBTQ members here have a right to know that this is a place free of intolerance. This just makes me so happy to hear.

 

[G50]

I'm glad this has been implemented. Equality is so important on here.

 

[SaintDynamite]

Well done, staff. I think that the LGBTQ members of the forum, myself included, will know that BMGF is somewhere they can feel safe to be themselves. Thanks

 

[thedarkbunnylord]

This's a very well done, Bulbagarden.

 

[Ultra Pidgeot]

I'm sorry, but I can't help but be a bit offended by this. "Equality is important, unless your views disagree with the staff's" seems to be the message here. Now, make no mistake, I support same sex marriage and see no problem with it. I'm not just saying this, ask one of my IRL friends on this forum.

That being said, I still find this very Big Brother-y and oppressive. Death threats against homosexuals are too much, yes. LGBTQ people should have a safe haven where there is no discrimination or judgement placed upon them, yes. This brings me to my first point. Point four of the new rule is "Social groups and blogs advocating homophobia and social groups with homophobic threads will not be tolerated." Now that makes perfect sense. A group like that is likely insulting and disgusting to members of the LGBTQ community. So, my question is, how do you think homophobic people feel in regards to LGBTQA or Bulbagayden Chatroom? While I cannot directly speak for them, I'm guessing it is equally sickening to them. But they are disregarded by this new policy.

Again, from the OP "Homophobia is wrong, morally repulsive, and it, like racism and sexism, serve only to perpetuate injustice.". Yes. I agree. But racism and sexism have no grounds for the hatred they display. It is irrational. However, in my personal experience, homophobia stems from the Bible. People read the Bible, go to church, and are taught that homosexuality is wrong. As another BMGf user (who shall remain anonymous) put it "The homophobia seemingly coming from the Bible actually comes from the corrupt men who teach from it." This is also true. But at the end of the day, that corrupted teaching is part of who they are, just as homosexuality is simply part of who someone is. You can argue that homosexuality isn't a choice (PROTIP: it isn't) and that homophobia is, but let me ask you this. If a child was forced into attending church by their parents in their most impressionable years, is that a choice? No. I may be stretching the metaphor a bit thin here, but you get the idea.

My third point: hypocrisy.

"The only forum where we will tolerate negative views of LGBTQ people (and make no mistake, they will be barely tolerated, not accepted) "
they will be barely tolerated, not accepted
tolerated, not accepted

I'm sorry, but this is simply absurd. It is unfair and hypocritical to demand that homophobics accept homosexuality, while simultaneously essentially outlawing acceptance (and barely tolerating) homophobia. This rule is an attempt to make the place more peaceful and less angry, but it simply isn't doing this. The same bitterness, the same hatred, the same loathing still remain, only this time it is directed at someone else. The OP also states "They chose to come here, to this community, to find friends." The homophobics, who are now being discriminated against, came here for the same reason.

Now, prepare for me to take point three to extreme levels. "These members may often be subjected to the kind of hardship that the rest of us would find hard to imagine. From the fear of being outed, to the risk of attacks if they are, to the plethora of people who denounce or dismiss them in the news every day."

The Phelps family. To me, they are the most loathsome, evil, mean, worst kind of person there is. They are scum, to me. They call our soldiers, who died to defend us, "fags", they damn the US, they walk on flags, they call anyone not one of them a "fag enabler". But the rest of the world hurls so much of that negativity right back at them. If I was part of the Phelps family or Westboro Baptist, I'd be scared shitless someone was going to shoot me at a rally. I watched two documentaries about their church recently, and a child less than ten was hit in the face by a soda thrown from a passing car during one of their rallies. That is what they face, every time they walk out the door. Equal amounts of hatred hurled at them for sticking to their guns. But does the US government say "Listen here, you kooks, that is wrong and awful! Cut that out!!"? No. It is despicable and loathsome, what they do, but for all the hate they spew, they get it back tenfold. But they are allowed to continue at it. They stay nonviolent and they are allowed to continue, just as I feel should be the case here. By striving for equality, you have taken it away. Before this rule, both parties could say what they wanted, but now, the homophobic camp has been cowed by the regime.

Finally, I would like to leave a closing remark on my behalf. I beg you, remember that it is not my intent to anger you. I am simply standing up for what I believe to be an injustice. I am not trolling, flaming, baiting, or anything else. I am not trying to disrespect the moderators. I am disrespecting the rule that I disagree with. I am not debating or villianizing homosexuality, but instead I am villianizing this authoritarian, totalitarian, oppressive, and ultimately offensive rule. Thank you.

Spoiler

In the event that my freethinking gets me permanently banned or heavily infracted to the extent of coming back to this site is out of the question, I would like to thank everybody who has made my time on this site amazing. You've taken some valuable time from me, but damn if it wasn't well spent. Again, thanks to everyone who put up with me while I was here.

See you, space cowboy.​

 

[Netto Azure]

A move forward. To quote a co worker:

WE ARE A PRIVATE WEBSITE

WE CAN TELL YOU WHAT YOU CAN AND CAN'T SAY

Haven't people been living with the rules since the site started?

Anyways:

[video=youtube;wDajqW561KM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDajqW561KM[/video]

Bulbagarden.

 

[Jewelfox]

That being said, I still find this very Big Brother-y and oppressive.

Do you know what's oppressive?

Wanting to play WoW, finding out that Proudmoore's the unofficial LGBT server, looking it up online and seeing a bunch of people complaining that "gay shouldn't be in WoW, politics don't belong here." Because the translation is "gays shouldn't be in WoW, we don't want them here."

I'm trans, and I hide that from pretty much everyone IRL because I'm terrified that if someone I know finds out it's the end of the world. I've lost my family. I've been yelled at on the bus about how I'm going to hell -- by the driver. I see people in gamer forums online use "fag" and "tranny" as slurs, and all of a sudden I have to hide from them too, and I'm scared that if they knew who I was they'd want to drive me out. Because "politics" don't belong there. Which is the same as saying "Heck yeah, bigots, come on in and drive those queers to kill themselves."

You're right that homo- and transphobes are convinced of the rightness of what they're doing. So is Bulbagarden's staff. That's why they have to do this. And if this was about racism, and they'd just outlawed the N-word and whites-only forums, you wouldn't have posted that garbage. You'd have known better.

Thank you, Bulbagarden.

PS "Transgender" is not a gender. I'm pointing this out because your signup form thinks it is. >.> I chose female because that's what I am.

 

[Fig]

Ultra Pidgeot :

So, my question is, how do you think homophobic people feel in regards to LGBTQA or Bulbagayden Chatroom? While I cannot directly speak for them, I'm guessing it is equally sickening to them. But they are disregarded by this new policy.

We have the choice between making homophobic members and homosexual members feel at home on Bulbagarden. There is no "middle way" - the so-called "middle way" involve allowing one group to call the other abominations, sinners, to tell them they're going to hell, that they shouldn't be allowed to marry, that what they are is a disease, etc.

One of these groups involves being born the way you are, and more often than not being unable to change (and even if you can change, doing so only at great psychological harm)
One of these groups involve becoming that way - your fault or not - , and refusing to change, even though the change is easy (and makes you a better, less hateful person).

One of these groups needs help and acceptance, and a safe haven where they don't get hounded by idiots who think a Pokémon forum is the right place to tell gays they shouldn't marry.
One of these groups is demanding that a Pokémon forum be turned into a place where they can play politics and soapbox about their hatred of gays.

One of these group has a place here.
The other, if they cannot leave their homophobic views outside Bulbagarden, is welcome to let the door hit them on the way out.

 

[chimera]

Spoiler

Good job.

Seriously though, this makes me very happy.

 

[Scarlet Sky]

Fantastic job Archaic. I would have expected nothing less..
It was about time someone took a stand on this. It's kind of sad a rule had to be made for this though, instead of people just being tolerant... But I guess that's how life works.

 

[The Outrage]

Again, from the OP "Homophobia is wrong, morally repulsive, and it, like racism and sexism, serve only to perpetuate injustice.". Yes. I agree. But racism and sexism have no grounds for the hatred they display. It is irrational. However, in my personal experience, homophobia stems from the Bible. People read the Bible, go to church, and are taught that homosexuality is wrong. As another BMGf user (who shall remain anonymous) put it "The homophobia seemingly coming from the Bible actually comes from the corrupt men who teach from it." This is also true. But at the end of the day, that corrupted teaching is part of who they are, just as homosexuality is simply part of who someone is. You can argue that homosexuality isn't a choice (PROTIP: it isn't) and that homophobia is, but let me ask you this. If a child was forced into attending church by their parents in their most impressionable years, is that a choice? No. I may be stretching the metaphor a bit thin here, but you get the idea.

So if a child was taught a distorted view of the world, we should just let them have such a view? What if your religious doctrine taught racism and sexism? I've seen the bible used to justify men's domination over women. Should that be allowed on these forums for the same logic that you're arguing homophobia should be?

It may not be a choice for them to have gone to church, but its a choice for this forum to spread pro-LGBTQ attitudes, and at the end of the day, its the choice of the person, who may have been taught to hate homosexuals all their life and now have had exposure to them online to choose the easy way and not change their views, or in light of contradicting evidence reassess their values.

At the end of the day, the argument above is just a conflict between the easy choice, and the hard choice. It is not at all comparable to homosexuality.

 

[Mijzelffan]

This is great. I mean, why accept one form of hatred against people (homophobia, transphobia etc.) while frowning upon others (racism, sexism etc.)? All hatred is bad and not a single kind of it should be accepted.

 

[Garren]

While I cannot directly speak for them, I'm guessing it is equally sickening to them. But they are disregarded by this new policy.

Yes you can speak directly for them, because it's obvious that looking over your post that you are, in-fact, a homophobe to some extent. You're using the classic "I'm not racist/homophobic, but...", and then literally saying what a homophobic person would say, that homophobia is comparable to homosexuality in terms of rights and that being homophobic is a lifestyle that should be protected. There's no way you'd waste this much breath on protecting someone's right to be a bigot unless you shared their point of view to some extent.

 

[Magnus Newman]

Okay, this is good and all.
But what about intolerance towards religion ? How can it be okay when people write aggressive posts about religion ? I've seen this more than once. Religiophobia should be included along with other forms of hatred.

 

[Redde]

Just wondering: Where do we draw the line on what's acceptable and what isn't, and who's the one deciding that? What makes homosexuality any more right than zoophilia, for instance?

 

[Bikini Miltank]

Okay, this is good and all.
But what about intolerance towards religion ? How can it be okay when people write aggressive posts about religion ? I've seen this more than once. Religiophobia should be included along with other forms of hatred.

I'm of the opinion that politeness goes along way, and I'd hope that people discussing religion here would treat each other with respect.

But firstly, you must understand that religion and sexuality do not fall into the same categories. Sexuality is something that you innately have; it is largely immutable. Religion is something that you choose to believe; people change religions all the time. In fact, that's sort of the point of religion. It doesn't mean anything unless you've consciously chosen to believe that set of principles.

Secondly, it depends what you mean by "aggressive posts" and "hatred". Posts directly insulting members of religion X would be infracted under existing rules, so if you see such things going on, be sure to report them. However, posts criticizing aspects of a religion's beliefs or practices are not against the rules, and should not be. It's not a form of bigotry to argue that a set of rules someone has consciously chosen to follow might be wrong. Of course, if that's done in an inflammatory way, then it's very likely breaking Flaming and Baiting rules, but in principle this kind of thing isn't rule breaking. And if you've committed yourself to these principles that are being criticized, you should certainly be prepared to argue in their favor.

 

[Garren]

Just wondering: Where do we draw the line on what's acceptable and what isn't, and who's the one deciding that? What makes homosexuality any more right than zoophilia, for instance?

Homosexuality is the relationship between two consenting human beings, and zoophilia isn't.