Sun & Moon Postgame Guide: Summary of Ohmori/Masuda Interview

[Esserise]

Well, I did say that I would post this, and I finally got my copy in the mail today. Personally, I didn't find this interview to be as insightful/engaging as the one from the ORAS guide, but it's got some interesting information in it nonetheless.

• Masuda chose Ohmori to direct Sun & Moon because with it being the 20th anniversary, it felt like a "turning point" and like the "ideal timing to consider the future of Pokémon," and Ohmori had previously worked hard and delivered satisfactory results as the director of Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire.
• Based on that transition, Ohmori chose to make "transcendence" a theme of the games. He sought to remake the series from the bottom-up, asking himself if fundamental fixtures such as Gyms were really necessary.
• Development on Sun & Moon started in autumn 2013, as soon as they finished working on X & Y, but Ohmori didn't become involved until after "quite a bit of progress" had already been made.
• Ohmori states that the number of Pokémon has "grown too high" with regard to completing the Pokédex. He wanted to recreate the feeling from Red & Green of being able to complete the Pokédex on your own, which also led to the upscaled flash and fanfare of the "Registered!" screen that follows when a new Pokémon is obtained or evolved, in order to make the collecting process more fun and rewarding.
• When designing the trials, Totem Pokémon came about as they wondered if they could make Pokémon themselves seem more threatening, and then worked that in with the idea of Alola being a location that is rich in nature.
• "Expressiveness" and "atmosphere" were key points of the games' concepts. Since the characters had more realistic proportions in these games, Ohmori wanted to make players feel more immersed in the region.
• The titles of the games - as mentioned previously in Ohmori's note on the official site - were meant to call to mind the contrasting views of the sun and moon when you look at them from down on Earth versus when you compare their actual orbits, as well as symbolizing the influence that outside forces like the sun and moon have on our world and, in turn, the influence that individuals have on one another.
• The time difference between the games was inspired by Ohmori's and Masuda's overseas travels.
• Hawaii was chosen as the setting because Ohmori wanted to emphasize a "pulsing, lively world" with diverse environments, in which each island had its own sort of personality, so that players would be excited to see what awaited on the next island.
• Making it so that the player character can be seen in the battle scenes was a difficult process and a long time in the making, starting with the 3D Pokémon models that X & Y introduced. But even after that "grandiose project," and the extra experience they'd gained with 3D work on Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire, they still had to completely overhaul the battle system from X & Y.
• They could have made Sun & Moon directly compatible with X &Y and Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire, but it would have restricted the graphics to the quality seen in those games. Ultimately, the existing option of Pokémon Bank as a way to keep your Pokémon with you on the 3DS convinced them to press forward and aim for higher graphics.
  
• Alola Forms were inspired by the Galapagos Islands, and Alolan Exeggutor was the first Alola Form that their graphic designers came up with.
• With regard to the story, Ohmori wanted to express "how the various people we encounter really help us grow as individuals" and "the way that your smile can inspire smiles in the people all around you." This is what Lillie represents; at first she is "quite reticent," but we become an influence on her throughtout our travels, inspiring her to try her hardest. "When the sun shines, so too does the moon." When the story begins, Lillie has the characteristics of the "moon," while Hau "fits the image of the sun." Over time, Lillie "moves away from being the moon, and becomes the sun, shining with light."
• In designing the maps, the heightened proportions of the character allowed them to portray more realistic environments, but they didn't want to "aim for photorealism," preferring to retain the same kind of layout in order to facilitate the usual fixtures like Trainers and items.
• "Every species of Pokémon has its own particular charms," so Z-Moves were meant to "let any species of Pokémon contribute greatly to battle."
  
• Ohmori states that the idea for the Ultra Beasts was inspired by invasive species, and that he wanted to try to express those in the Pokémon world. To design them, they thought about the forms that Pokémon from other worlds would take. "Normally, whenever we create a new Pokémon, we have a clear standard for 'Pokémon-ness,' but we really tried to take a big risk with our graphic designers to exceed the limits of what a Pokémon can be when it came to the beasts."
• Some of Masuda's contributions as the producer involved the Rotom Dex, the "tempo" of the gameplay ("shaving off" frames where possible in order to keep things moving quickly - "Even if it's just a tenth of a second, when you add that up over and over, you might waste more than an hour of your time, right? If you do that as a developer, then you've just wasted an hour of your players' precious time, so I take it very seriously."), and the user interface for battles, which was inspired by the UIs of smartphones and tablets, whereas the UIs of X & Y and Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire were a holdover from the DS games' layout.
• When asked about how Sun & Moon sit in relation to past games, and how they may influence future games, Ohmori says, "There is a lot of new experimentation in these titles, so I think it may end up as a rather unique set of games. Among these new things we tried out, some may carry on and link to future titles, and some might change based on the reactions of our players. Or it might possibly become the basis of the next generation of the Pokémon series." Masuda says, "I think that these titles have the greatest sense of drama within the Pokémon series. Like Ohmori said, these are games that try to rebuild what Pokémon is, and I think that the staff worked and suffered a lot to try to recreate everything from the ground up."

 

[Ereshkigal]

Wait...

So Lillie was themed after the Moon? And not a Pokemon? Or am I reading that wrong?

This does disprove my own theory that Lillie was themed to fit in with the Aether Foundation, though.

 

[Boss1708]

Do Masuda and Ohmori explain anything more about the development of the game?

When they tell us development for SM started in 2013 after XY, do they mean it was developed alongside ORAS, or do they mean SM was only in "conceptual brainstorming" at that time and started proper physical development only after Ohmori was ready with ORAS ane could start a new project?

Because I dont get how is Ohmori supposed to be the director, if they had already made half of the game befor he even joined the project? It is kinda confusing.

 

[SpikOriundo]

Among these new things we tried out, some may carry on and link to future titles, and some might change based on the reactions of our players.

Oh, so that means Festival Plaza won't be a thing on the future?
YES!
Though knowing my luck, they will think Festival Plaza was a great idea and keep it exactly as it is.

 

[Esserise]

Wait...

So Lillie was themed after the Moon? And not a Pokemon? Or am I reading that wrong?

This does disprove my own theory that Lillie was themed to fit in with the Aether Foundation, though.

I think you are reading it wrong. They're talking in terms of personality traits. Lillie is like the moon in that she starts out passive, more obscured, a smaller presence to be influenced by others, while her own influence is more subtle. The moon lights up and becomes like the sun when the sun's light shines on it, and that's a metaphor for her character arc. It's nothing to do with her attire; as I expected, they don't say anything about that.

Do Masuda and Ohmori explain anything more about the development of the game?

When they tell us development for SM started in 2013 after XY, do they mean it was developed alongside ORAS, or do they mean SM was only in "conceptual brainstorming" at that time and started proper physical development only after Ohmori was ready with ORAS ane could start a new project?

Because I dont get how is Ohmori supposed to be the director, if they had already made half of the game befor he even joined the project? It is kinda confusing.

It's not very specific. Masuda says, "But for some of us, the development for Pokémon Sun and Pokémon Moon actually began back in the fall of 2013, as soon as Pokémon X and Pokémon Y were completed. The question then posed is, "So the game had already progressed to a certain point, and then you added Mr. Ohmori into the mix as director. Did that create big changes in the game's content or how it is played?" To which Ohmori replies, "When I joined the Pokémon Sun and Pokémon Moon project, there had already been quite a bit of progress made. I gave a lot of careful consideration to how I would create a new Pokémon experience, while also taking that into account. Since I already had the materials that the other project members had created, I tried to mold them into something newer and even greater. I think that having to do that work is part of what has made Pokémon Sun and Pokémon Moon into such deep games."

Based on that, my initial assumption would be that the director of a game just doesn't necessarily need to be around for the initial stages since perhaps its not stuff that needs a particular vision behind it, but he says "materials that the other project members had created," so I'm wondering it maybe he means the stuff like the 3D models and general 3DS software that was made for XY, since the end of those games is right when SM entered development?

 

[Ereshkigal]

Okay, thank you! I figured I better ask to make certain before I start my epileptic orchard.

 

[godiego]

Ohmori states that the number of Pokémon has "grown too high" with regard to completing the Pokédex.

shock!

 

[Karamazov]

Thanks for posting this, it's a pretty interesting read.

Now time for my unsolicited opinions about this.

Spoiler

Ohmori states that the number of Pokémon has "grown too high"

Fuck.

He wanted to recreate the feeling from Red & Green of being able to complete the Pokédex on your own, which also led to the upscaled flash and fanfare of the "Registered!" screen that follows when a new Pokémon is obtained or evolved, in order to make the collecting process more fun and rewarding.

Unfortunately, you can't complete the PokeDex on your own, what with all the trade evos and version exclusives. Unless you shell out extra cash, of course!

Completing the PokeDex is still a chore, but I don't think that the number of Pokemon is the main issue; especially since that issue could be easily mitigated with Wonder Trade, having an NPC trade you a random non-legend Pokemon every day, or having friends help you. Or whatever.

My main issues are a) horrible Pokemon distribution and constantly re-using the same old Pokemon (the Zubat line is literally in every single game and region in some form or another), and b) stuff like item-based trade evos being nearly impossible to get without buying another game or getting a friend's help. Seriously, no one wants to risk putting their Electabuzz holding its evolutionary item in a trade and getting an item-less trade evo Pokemon back, so they instead ask for an Electivire. The GTS is a mess in a lot of respects, and fixing it up would make collecting Pokemon so much easier for fans.

All that said, they did pretty well with the regional dex, in terms of completion. You get the coveted Shiny Charm for doing so, and there's nor reason to force yourself to catch 800+ Pokemon to get anything. It creates a reasonable goal for casual and veteran players alike. I think this line of thinking would be good for the future, and would justify having larger numbers of Pokemon.

When designing the trials, Totem Pokémon came about as they wondered if they could make Pokémon themselves seem more threatening, and then worked that in with the idea of Alola being a location that is rich in nature.

They did pretty well, I think. I hope they continue this line of thought in the future, and not just by having Totems. Like how you faced a Hypno in the Berry Forest in FR/LG, or going up against a legendary.

"Expressiveness" and "atmosphere" were key points of the games' concepts. Since the characters had more realistic proportions in these games, Ohmori wanted to make players feel more immersed in the region.

Yeah, I feel really immersed when I can't even access half the region because a lot of map locations were cut.

I appreciate this thought though. Exploration is a great way to make the world immersive and atmospheric, and I'm glad SM at least had a few side areas to explore. But I think this is something they need to consider more when vying for atmosphere and immersion: allowing us to explore what we're supposed to be immersing ourselves in.

The titles of the games - as mentioned previously in Ohmori's note on the official site - were meant to call to mind the contrasting views of the sun and moon when you look at them from down on Earth versus when you compare their actual orbits, as well as symbolizing the influence that outside forces like the sun and moon have on our world and, in turn, the influence that individuals have on one another.

Got it, meaningless drivel about "contrast," adding a few references to the theme, and stretching things enough so you can compare things to the sun and moon. I appreciate the thought, but next time you can just admit that you chose the titles because they're opposing concepts.

Hawaii was chosen as the setting because Ohmori wanted to emphasize a "pulsing, lively world" with diverse environments, in which each island had its own sort of personality, so that players would be excited to see what awaited on the next island.

Pretty good reasons. The islands weren't created equal, and some are more interesting than others, but they all feel very different and unique, with a lot of personality. This game has a ton of personality.

Making it so that the player character can be seen in the battle scenes was a difficult process and a long time in the making, starting with the 3D Pokémon models that X & Y introduced. But even after that "grandiose project," and the extra experience they'd gained with 3D work on Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire, they still had to completely overhaul the battle system from X & Y.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I don't think they should have bothered. The game's already laggy and adding trainers in the scenes barely adds anything. I think they should have brought up how they made unique backgrounds; that's more important and noticeable for immersion.

I'm glad they gained some valuable experience. Hopefully they learned enough to improve gameplay and graphics in future games. Graphic-wise, SM was such a great push forward for the series.

With regard to the story, Ohmori wanted to express "how the various people we encounter really help us grow as individuals" and "the way that your smile can inspire smiles in the people all around you." This is what Lillie represents; at first she is "quite reticent," but we become an influence on her throughtout our travels, inspiring her to try her hardest. "When the sun shines, so too does the moon." When the story begins, Lillie has the characteristics of the "moon," while Hau "fits the image of the sun." Over time, Lillie "moves away from being the moon, and becomes the sun, shining with light."

Oh cool.

Some of Masuda's contributions as the producer involved the Rotom Dex, the "tempo" of the gameplay ("shaving off" frames where possible in order to keep things moving quickly - "Even if it's just a tenth of a second, when you add that up over and over, you might waste more than an hour of your time, right? If you do that as a developer, then you've just wasted an hour of your players' precious time, so I take it very seriously."), and the user interface for battles, which was inspired by the UIs of smartphones and tablets, whereas the UIs of X & Y and Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire were a holdover from the DS games' layout.

So if they cared about the tempo of the gameplay, why not add skippable cutscenes, or cutscenes you can fast-forward? It's not just them - skippable cutscenes are something a lot of game makers need to try out more. We finally got into he era of player character customization, and I'm hoping the next era is the era where we skip scenes, like MegaMan Battle Network.

When asked about how Sun & Moon sit in relation to past games, and how they may influence future games, Ohmori says, "There is a lot of new experimentation in these titles, so I think it may end up as a rather unique set of games. Among these new things we tried out, some may carry on and link to future titles, and some might change based on the reactions of our players. Or it might possibly become the basis of the next generation of the Pokémon series." Masuda says, "I think that these titles have the greatest sense of drama within the Pokémon series. Like Ohmori said, these are games that try to rebuild what Pokémon is, and I think that the staff worked and suffered a lot to try to recreate everything from the ground up."

Hopeful and promising. Game Freak isn't always quick on the uptake, and they'll always make mistakes, and they'll often go backwards for flimsy reasons (or no reason at all), but they do listen to their fans eventually. I'm looking forward to seeing the franchise continue evolving with us. I shit on this company a lot, but they genuinely care about the franchise, and I respect them deeply for it.

 

[PurplePopplio]

So since SM were in development since Autumn of 2013, I wonder how they handled ORAS, Sun+Moon and Stars if it's real. That must have been a tough period of development then.

 

[Silktree]

Ohmori started working on Sun and Moon in late 2014 after he was done with ORAS. This was stated in another interview.

So since SM were in development since Autumn of 2013, I wonder how they handled ORAS, Sun+Moon and Stars if it's real. That must have been a tough period of development then.

It's to assume that Stars entered development after ORAS' release. They also increased their staff by a third about a year ago (from 81 to 108).

 

[PurplePopplio]

Ohmori started working on Sun and Moon in late 2014 after he was done with ORAS. This was stated in another interview.


It's to assume that Stars entered development after ORAS' release. They also increased their staff by a third about a year ago (from 81 to 108).

Thanks for the clarification. I wonder what exactly they have planned for Stars since they increased their staff. Must be something big.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Is there a link to the full interview?

 

[Esserise]

Is there a link to the full interview?

Not as far as I know; I'd have posted a verbatim version but I 1) didn't have that much time, and 2) wasn't sure on the rules about that.

 

[Silktree]

Thanks for the clarification. I wonder what exactly they have planned for Stars since they increased their staff. Must be something big.

To be honest, I think that the expansion was more for the Switch in general than for Stars specifically. They're undergoing another expansion this month, too.

 

[Matleo]

they gave us a very good game they know it but they need to make in future better ones and modify this pokemons too like those of past generations.
Lets thank them with a big smile.

 

[Boss1708]

It's not very specific. Masuda says, "But for some of us, the development for Pokémon Sun and Pokémon Moon actually began back in the fall of 2013, as soon as Pokémon X and Pokémon Y were completed. The question then posed is, "So the game had already progressed to a certain point, and then you added Mr. Ohmori into the mix as director. Did that create big changes in the game's content or how it is played?" To which Ohmori replies, "When I joined the Pokémon Sun and Pokémon Moon project, there had already been quite a bit of progress made. I gave a lot of careful consideration to how I would create a new Pokémon experience, while also taking that into account. Since I already had the materials that the other project members had created, I tried to mold them into something newer and even greater. I think that having to do that work is part of what has made Pokémon Sun and Pokémon Moon into such deep games."

Ok, thanks for expanding this (and thanks for the interview as a whole, I am very interested in developers interviews, as you know)

Based on that, my initial assumption would be that the director of a game just doesn't necessarily need to be around for the initial stages since perhaps its not stuff that needs a particular vision behind it, but he says "materials that the other project members had created," so I'm wondering it maybe he means the stuff like the 3D models and general 3DS software that was made for XY, since the end of those games is right when SM entered development?

I agree.

The way I see it... I think they meant that SM started "conceptual development" when ORAS started "physical development" (from Octber 2013) just like ORAS was in "conceptual development" since BW2 was released (between November 2012 and November 2013). In other words, when the physical development of a game starts, the conceptual development and brainstorming for the next game starts as well. I think this has been the case for quite some time, and quite many generations already.

Additionally to the conceptual development of SM starting during the physical development of ORAS, I could also see some other stuff, like the designing of the new Alola Pokemon staring then as well (since there were no new Pokemon to design in ORAS as it is a remake, the Pokemon designers probably had nothing to do and started thinking of the new Pokemon for Gen VII at that time). We know the same is also true for ORAS: it was mentioned in an other interview with Ohmori and Masuda, how the Cosplay Pikachu forms were already designed during XY´s development period, before they started developing ORAS. I suppose most of the ORAS Megas were probably also ready during XY´s development period, before they started devloping ORAS. We know form an other interview that the Kanto Starters Mega Evolutions were also supposed to debut in ORAS, but Masuda was so excited that he decided to add them in XY already.

Additionally, we know that one of the very few members of GF that wasn´t involved in the development of ORAS was Morimoto. And we also know that he designed the Battle Royal for SM. Maybe that´s one of the few things that were already in development before Ohmori started directing the game. Along with the creation of new Abilities and Moves which are also his main job as battle director.

So maybe the kind of stuff that Ohmori meant when saying they had quite some progress made before his joining of the SM project, as we know that that kinda stuff is usally developed beforehand. And, as you say, maybe they meant some of the graphical improvements from XY as well.

 

[Esserise]

Thanks for posting this, it's a pretty interesting read.

No problem.

My main issues are a) horrible Pokemon distribution and constantly re-using the same old Pokemon (the Zubat line is literally in every single game and region in some form or another)

It really is perplexing, isn't it. Why use Zubat when Woobat or Noibat are available? It'd at least make things more interesting. It's the same with Abra. There are other Psychic-type families that could fill in that spot just as well. They may not function exactly the same as the Abra line, but it'd at least be a change of pace. And does every game need Magikarp/Gyarados?

It's particularly baffling when they could have at the very least least given Zubat/Abra/Magikarp their own Alola Forms.

and b) stuff like item-based trade evos being nearly impossible to get without buying another game or getting a friend's help. Seriously, no one wants to risk putting their Electabuzz holding its evolutionary item in a trade and getting an item-less trade evo Pokemon back, so they instead ask for an Electivire. The GTS is a mess in a lot of respects, and fixing it up would make collecting Pokemon so much easier for fans.

On top of that, they don't really make it easy to get those evolution-inducing trade items. In Gen 6, it was a pain to get the Up-Grade and the Dubious Disc necessary for Porygon-Z. The only options were the Battle Maison or the PokéMileage Club. I guess the latter wasn't too difficult, but it shouldn't be so daunting to get just within the game itself. They've been consistently ridiculous about the Razor Claw.

All that said, they did pretty well with the regional dex, in terms of completion. You get the coveted Shiny Charm for doing so, and there's nor reason to force yourself to catch 800+ Pokemon to get anything. It creates a reasonable goal for casual and veteran players alike. I think this line of thinking would be good for the future, and would justify having larger numbers of Pokemon.

They did pretty well, I think. I hope they continue this line of thought in the future, and not just by having Totems. Like how you faced a Hypno in the Berry Forest in FR/LG, or going up against a legendary.

Agreed on both of these.

I appreciate this thought though. Exploration is a great way to make the world immersive and atmospheric, and I'm glad SM at least had a few side areas to explore. But I think this is something they need to consider more when vying for atmosphere and immersion: allowing us to explore what we're supposed to be immersing ourselves in.

It seems like they were in a bit of a rock/hard place situation in terms of how far they were able to go on the 3DS. So hopefully, with new hardware, they will be able to go further with it. I've complained about the same things in SM, but cutting the areas they did and putting in filler where they did doesn't feel like their usual style to me. I think it's largely a consequence of the hardware's limitations. But, they had to get something out this year.

I can't say that I don't wonder about the alternative universe where they choose compatibility over graphical advancement. What would SM be like as a more Gen 6-ish game? Better in some ways, worse in others, I imagine. I don't expect that I'd prefer it to what we got, though.

Got it, meaningless drivel about "contrast," adding a few references to the theme, and stretching things enough so you can compare things to the sun and moon. I appreciate the thought, but next time you can just admit that you chose the titles because they're opposing concepts.

They always have some sort of flowery philosophy behind the titles. As someone who obsesses about what to call things, it piques my interest, but pragmatically, you're right in that they do probably just pick something that sounds/looks good. I'm guessing that they start building up the themes of the games after they have titles chosen.

That being said, what they say about Lillie's symbolism makes sense to me, and it's true that the plot of SM involves a lot of overlapping relationships and influences.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I don't think they should have bothered. The game's already laggy and adding trainers in the scenes barely adds anything. I think they should have brought up how they made unique backgrounds; that's more important and noticeable for immersion.

Having thought about it more and more since the games came out, I've come to agree. Like, when I first saw the Z-Move poses, it all made sense in my head - the Trainers are visible in battle to tie in with that, so it's like we're also seeing the bond between our opponent and their Pokémon. But then it turns out that the opponent never actually does the poses. Which just makes me question the purpose of both the in-battle Trainer models and the poses, which, if anything is a time-waster, surely it's those? They clearly don't have to include them since all of the NPC's Z-Moves just skip right to the Pokémon.

Even the customizable Trainer styles aren't all that different from one another in the actual battle sequence.

So if they cared about the tempo of the gameplay, why not add skippable cutscenes, or cutscenes you can fast-forward? It's not just them - skippable cutscenes are something a lot of game makers need to try out more. We finally got into he era of player character customization, and I'm hoping the next era is the era where we skip scenes, like MegaMan Battle Network.

That's a really good question, especially considering that these were the 20th anniversary games. If anything says, "veterans will be playing this," it's that.

If I had to guess, I'd say it's because of the increased focus on the plot, so maybe the logic is that plot-related scenes aren't "wasting" our time since we're (ideally) invested in them? But... the viscous pace of the first island feels like the result of something more fundamental than cutscenes (I mean, they certainly don't help in that regard, but...), at least to me. But I can't quite put my finger on it.

 

[Boss1708]

It's to assume that Stars entered development after ORAS' release. They also increased their staff by a third about a year ago (from 81 to 108).

To be honest, I think that the expansion was more for the Switch in general than for Stars specifically. They're undergoing another expansion this month, too.

How do you know those 2 things? What is the source? And when exactly do you say they expanded from 81 to 108?

So since SM were in development since Autumn of 2013, I wonder how they handled ORAS, Sun+Moon and Stars if it's real. That must have been a tough period of development then.

As I explained above,I don´t think they are saying that ORAS and SM have been in development simultaneously. I think they meant that SM started "conceptual development brainstorming" at the time when ORAS started "physical development" (while the conceptual development brainstorming for ORAS took place a year earlier: between November 2012 and November 2013).

So, I don´t think they had much more work at that time, than they usually do. If anything, I think they were busier and more in a rush when they had started conceptual development of Gen V, while Platinum, and HGSS after that, were still in physical development. Especially since their staff was way smaller back then (around 50 members I think).

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

It's particularly baffling when they could have at the very least least given Zubat/Abra/Magikarp their own Alola Forms.

This hurts much more due to the fact that a lot of those forms were really lacking in design. They could' even easily made more forms. Vulpix, Sandshrew and Raichu are the only forms which freshen up thier older counterparts.

 

[Silktree]

How do you know those 2 things? What is the source? And when exactly do you say they expanded from 81 to 108?

Staff size is from Game Freak's website. It now says 108 employees as of April 2016, and before that update it said 81 as of April 2015. It's updated every year.

I don't really know when Stars entered development, but Eurogamer said that it had been developed in parallel to SM until some point in 2016 at which all focus was shifted to the latter. I rather doubt that a Switch game was in the making before ORAS were even done.