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Mafia Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Mafia - Endgame (Looking Stupid Joker!)

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Cop/Doc/Watcher or even just Watcher in 9p is already wild, Tracker doesn't really seem like that much in comparison. JOAT meanwhile would double a couple of these roles, as well as adding a lot of swing with the Vig shot.
 
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I'm just saying be wary of confirmation bias. If SM was still alive and claimed Watcher, people would have the same objections they do to Caps, but even stronger because Watcher is a much stronger role and Watcher/Doctor is a basically broken combination. By the same logic as voting Caps, you would misvote SM in F5.
 

Reiji

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Only one scum remaining, so no partners are influencing anything
Not quite sure what you mean by this, I wasn’t referring to partners. I was referring to the fact that Kaiveran has become more vehement in their defence and Caps now has started coming in with more lengthy posts etc as opposed to initially when they were mostly single-sentence posts.
 

TheCapsFan

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Not quite sure what you mean by this, I wasn’t referring to partners. I was referring to the fact that Kaiveran has become more vehement in their defence and Caps now has started coming in with more lengthy posts etc as opposed to initially when they were mostly single-sentence posts.
did you miss the part where Kai was calling me out for not responding to their case on me? That’s what the lengthy post was about. Not exactly easy to respond to that in a sentence. I really don’t know how that’s suddenly making my claim more sus to you…
 
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Kaiveran

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I'm may be a little tipsy due to accompaniments to a house Christmas dinner, but I'll try to address some more stuff in a bit anyways
 
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Well, don't blame me if things go badly for town. Not that I should care, because I win either way
 

Kaiveran

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Kai's role still adds investigation, and the fact that there is a flipped Watcher and Doctor or even a Watcher at all shows that balance wasn't terribly much of a concern. Tracker and Watcher are fairly common together, although they may seem similar the roles have significantly different utility.

It's only 1 shot though. As for them being common together, yeah, I agree, and I've went over how those two are probably the most alignment-agnostic claims in the game in this post.

Cop/Doc/Watcher or even just Watcher in 9p is already wild, Tracker doesn't really seem like that much in comparison. JOAT meanwhile would double a couple of these roles, as well as adding a lot of swing with the Vig shot.
Full Commuter also doubles on defensive roles, to a way more busted extent than one Doc or Vigi shot. And whaddaya know, Reiji turned out town.

I'm just saying be wary of confirmation bias. If SM was still alive and claimed Watcher, people would have the same objections they do to Caps, but even stronger because Watcher is a much stronger role and Watcher/Doctor is a basically broken combination. By the same logic as voting Caps, you would misvote SM in F5.
I could tell you the same thing. I think o understand your reasons okay, but again, remaining stuck in the now isn't the thing to do in XLo.

Well, don't blame me if things go badly for town. Not that I should care, because I win either way
That's right. You’ve no horse in this race. So step back, relax, go drink some eggnog, and come back around EoD to open your Christmas present

If leetic exclatmation mark was really into good sportmanship, one would think he'd unvote

I suppose there is always the chance that Caps is actually a super scum siding 3P who’s written himself into a corner today, and you are the LWS who decided to go deep on a Survivor claim (which wouldn't have been contested b/c that puts em on the spot_). That would explain why you feel pressed to keep on me because if I don’t die right now you lose as well.

But hurk nope, my body is violently rejecting that possibility

Also it literally makes no difference to town win chance so why I am even typing this?
 

Kaiveran

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My main issue Caps is the fact that you claimed a Tracker which was essentially handed to you and DW confirmed my concern that a cop/tracker/commuter/doc in a game this small is… wild.

But then so is JOAT. However I also can’t take my mind off the fact that now Kaiveran has picked up steam, so have you.

I really think I may regret this but I think I may have to Vote: TheCapsFan

It’s hard because to be honest they are both being so scummy and I am finding it hard to properly say one is more scum than the other, even after my vote I’m thinking that the way Kai responds to some things or pleas doesn’t sit right with me.
Good Guy Reiji :claps emojis:

I just want you to know that you have my utmost sympathies, and honstely I won't even be mad if you switch back. XLo thunderdome situations are their own unique form of psychic torture and having the thorn of the unknown lodged in your skull can be especially excruciating at this time. With the time pressure/holidays as well, so I know had be pretty hard to step back and reorient yourself properly.

Still, you did it and i'm glad. I think with your first post you're picking up on what I've been saying on Caps; the good parts of his play are primarily reactive. His baseline was pretty low this game and it only seemed to ramp up when prompted by an outside event, such as when townies probed him, when neo got seered, when he got threatened by my role and had to leverage his claim to eliminate it.

THat's what I've been talking about when saying keep the whole game in mind.
 
Endgame - Looking Stupid Joker!

ReturnofMCH

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Endgame: Looking Stupid Joker!


Votals:
TheCapsFan: 3 (DawningWinds, Kaiveran, Reiji)
Kaiveran: 1 (TheCapsFan)
No Vote: 1 (leetic!)

Dear TheCapsFan, you represent Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Fighters Pass 1.

Since Smash Ultimate did so well and Smash 4 set a precedent, it was only a matter of time before Ultimate got Downloadable Content as well. You introduced 5 newcomers to the game, namely Joker, Hero, Banjo-Kazooie, Terry Bogard, and Byleth.

Led by the Phantom Thief of Hearts Joker, you can avoid detection from all investigative abilities once during the game by replying to the mafia chat with Infiltrate: [NIGHT X]. Likewise, you can check on another person’s role every night by replying with Steal your heart: [PLAYER].

You are allied with Mafia and win when you outnumber or equal the town.

TheCapsFan was lynched, they were the Mafia Rolecop and 1x Ninja!

Town has won the game!

Dear Kaiveron, you represent Super Smash Bros. Ultimate.

You represent the fifth game in the series, which is known for including all previous fighters and being a celebration of the gaming community. You introduced 11 newcomers in the base game, including Dark Samus, Daisy, Chrom, Ken, Inkling, Ridley, Simon, Richter, King K. Rool, Isabelle and Incineroar.

Your group is led by Isabelle, who has a range of tools from the Animal Crossing world at her disposal. As such, you are aligned with the town and are a Jack-Of-All-Trades (J.O.A.T.). Each night, you can choose one of three 1-shot abilities. You can choose to investigate a player and determine their alignment. You can do this by replying to this PM with Study: [PLAYER]. Instead, you can choose to protect another player by growing a tree to protect them. You can do this by replying to this PM with Grow Tree in Front of: [PLAYER]. Finally, you can choose kill another player by dropping a bowling ball on their head. You can do this by replying to this PM with Drop Bowling Ball on: [PLAYER]. Note: you can only use each of these abilities once.

You are aligned with the town and win when all the mafia have been eliminated.

Dear DawningWinds, you represent Super Smash Bros. 64.

You represent the first game in the series, which boasts a total of 12 different characters, 4 of which are unlockable. These include Mario, Donkey Kong, Link, Samus, Yoshi, Kirby, Fox, Pikachu, Luigi, Ness, Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff.

Your group is led by Captain Falcon, who is well versed in conducting his own investigations. As such, you are aligned with the town, and are a Cop. Each night phase, you can choose to investigate a player and deduce their alignment. You can do this by replying to this PM with Investigate: [PLAYER].

You are aligned with the town and win when all the mafia have been eliminated.

Dear Reiji, you represent Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

You represent the third game in the series, which is mainly remembered for introducing a story mode through The Subspace Emissary. You introduced 17 characters, including the first third party characters in the franchise. Newcomers in this entry include Meta Knight, Pit, Zero Suit Samus, Wario, Snake, Ike, Pokémon Trainer (including Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard), Diddy Kong, Lucas, Sonic, King Dedede, Olimar, Lucario, R.O.B., Toon Link and Wolf.

Your group is led by Sonic, who can use his super speed to outrun other characters. As such, you are aligned with the town, and are a Commuter. Each night you will run away from other players, meaning that you cannot be targeted by any night actions.

You are aligned with the town and win when all the mafia have been eliminated.

leetic! has won the game!

Dear leetic!, you represent the Piranha Plant.

Originally planned for the base game of Super Smash Bros Ultimate, you weren’t completed on time and were later released as an early purchase bonus or some money if you didn’t get it during the free period.

Because of this nature of being in between DLC and base game, as well as being a single entity, you are a Survivor. This means you get no special abilities, but win regardless of faction as so long as you survive to endgame.

You are allied with yourself and win when you survive to endgame.

I did the update half an hour early after asking elementar.
 

Kaiveran

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Point I accidentally glossed over: yes, I have been pretty static in my read on Caps, but I feel like he's been pretty static in his play until very recently, and even that looked like slotting into a mostly prefabricated narrative to me (DW seems to concur).

If I'm static on my read on a person who isn't doing much to change it and they turn out to be in a mechanically locked scumpool, is it a bad read?
Too much of a white rabbit situation to format shit properly rn, my comments are bold and blue and/or interlinear b/c hard returns split quotes, awesome!
A lot of the posts that you pass off simply as "reporting" are important in showing your process, throughout D1, of keeping Neo at a distance while indirectly defending them enough to pass them off as a strong townread. You begin fresh out the gate with a GTH Town on Neo, then a small, indirect townread based on a reaction to your pushing inactive players (which, we can now see, was a farce, given that neither myself nor Reiji was scum), then a townread with no justification, then you placing them in your towncore, keeping them there for the rest of the day, but then backing off during the night after they started to get some heat their way.

This is classic D1 distancing.
Hmm maybe there might be a little bt of a culture clash with regard to the term distancing, b/c where I'm from "distancing" implies bringing up negatives on your partner(s) in order to dissociate yourselves as a tieam, and in this case I think that would apply more to Caps' play towards neo as his inconsistent ride to the scummy side of Caps' reads. There was never really a standard term for what he seems to be implying here (interacting only lighltly and spuriously towning each other) but I always called it being "lazy" on someone. Like, "X is totally being lazy on Y, they might be wolfbuds"

Anyways, if Caps means distancing the way I do, then he's misapplying the term. If he means what I mean by being "lazy", then sure, I've admitted that I haven't had the deepest interactions with neo D1, but I don't think me getting bamboozled by neo was spurious at all. I gave clear reasons why I went the way I did.
I mean, I have pretty conclusive evidence provided to me by the hosts through my role that you are scum, so I don't feel like I'm the one who needs to defend myself here.

But, since you asked, I'll take a look.
This isn't really admissible evidence is the court of MafiaWolf, Also the 2 confirmed townies seem to disagree.

As much as you wish it were otherwise, the two of us are still unconfirmed and thus mechanically equal candidates in this scumpool. As town, I'm actually in the position you are claiming to be in here and I was honestly gobsmacked that people lockscummed me based on my claim, but it didn't matter how I felt, I was suddenly on the defensvie and had to act. It sucked, it fucked, it felt like ice skating uphill. But I still gave it my all, including staying up until some ungodly hour on Christmas even with my most recent batch of posts.

(I may have an unhealthy relationship with this game.)

When I am catching up on a thread, I always start with the first unread post and try to post my thoughts as they come without reading any new posts, as to keep my thought process consistent and so I can form genuine opinions as they come, rather than using recent posts to cloud my judgement of older posts. This was difficult to do D1 since I was constantly being quoted and seeing those posts pop up as I was backreading/responding, but I managed to stick with it for the most part. I think you would understand this pretty well, given that this was the approach you began with this game. This point is moot.
Fairy nuff
A lot of people had similar sentiments about my early suspicions of DW, so it makes sense that neo would sheep off that.
Does it not also make sense that neo would do this to distance from a partner? Leetic had later demonstrated with his later analysis (D2 i think?) that this fits her style
Walkback, yes, but not from me, from HD. This post is first and foremost a scumread on me by Neo, as Neo herself later said.
Yeah, and the whole point of this wallcase was finding out whether you and neo were partners, so her own interactions and responses that have to do with you are a crucial part of figuring that out. Again, this should be info you already know.
This was in the middle of leetic's huge tunnel on me, so that needs to be taken into account as well. I responded later giving leetic that point and saying that I thought leetic's pressuring of DW as a whole was productive. Reiji echoed me on this point later, and even gave me as an example, saying that he thought I was producing more productive content once leetic got off my ass.
(note that this also included DWs post right after, but I forgot to number it and reading it over again it could go either way)

the problems with this take:
  • if leetic was going hard on town!you at this point, I don't see why you would bring up pressuring of DW as apeertinent problem
  • so it was a bad thing when he was on your ass, but not on DW, our friendly neighborhood Cop. can't imagine why

Neo had not pinged me at that point, so there was no reason to make a stricter read on her. At this point I was still just trying to ctch up, while also dealing with neverending notifications from leetic quoting me every twenty seconds. Same is true at 187.
Understandable, have a nice day
Leetic was honestly pissing me off, and if we're being honest, his tunneling of me was starting to feel a bit ad hominem; we've had some history in the past, and this is the first game we've played together in a while. Whenever I am attacked ad hominem I tend to respond with sarcasm and in this case that played into his confirmation bias - when he admitted that my sarcasm was doing as such, I started taking him more seriously.

Overall this doesn't really pertain to your case though.
Thanks for sparing me the effort /s

Seriously, though, it's well established that you don't have to be the most honest and open player as town, and there wouldve been a good enough reason for your caginess were you actuallt Town Tracker. With all this said, it doesn't really make sense to me that you would've intentionally escalated the situation. It was D1, so none of the craziness we know now was apparent yet and a town Tracker mght have difinitely consideres themselv mid to high tier. I feel like the risk taking here fits more with someone partnered with Neo, whom as a 1xStrongman/RB could have definitely held her own if things went pear-shaped.

AAAAND IT'S SUDDENLY T-30mins SO HERE"S THE IMPORTANT BITS
"Known townies" - you mean FA and just FA? Because they're the only player who's "prompted" me thus far in this ISO as per your argument. I don't disagree; FA was my top town throughout D1, I reacted more to their posts and opinions by nature.
Known townies at the time of post. Not back then. There are others. You just don't want them seen.
This conclusion makes sense as I was the easiest way out for you to mislynch. I had already been suspected as a secondary option (almost universally sussed, but never really pushed) throughout most of Day 1 and again on Day 2 as the PoE began to close. Reiji was way too town for you to push, and HD was the tougher push since he's the stronger player.
I know this is pretty whyfoamy and difficult to prove, but as a newcomer here I didn't have any idea of player clout, and I definitely didn't think I'd have problems with HD. Before he died it was honstely gonna be a coinflip between him and Caps today b/c he exhibited very similar reactive behavior to you and I wasn't sure if liek, my case was legit reaching him or he was just stepping it up so as not to get pwned.
Besides, I think "not having a desire to solve someone" on D1 is just a weak argument in general, as there's no way you can really solve anything D1 since there are no facts - you just make your best guess given the discourse, which I did.

But, again, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. I know you're scum.
This is such a hypocritical non-point. Not only does it clash with his own claim that I wasn't actually solving neo D1, it's counter to basic mafia play

Every townie has gotten their role PM on D1. Every townie is going to show at least some interest in solving most other players, because at that point that's literally all they have to further their wincon because nobody is a known quantity

There is one now, though.
 

Kaiveran

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Oh lol, nice! :)

Knew there was Rolecop stuff going on!
 
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Well, the setup was super townsided. You should probably replaced the Watcher with the Voyeur, the Doctor with a Bodyguard, and make one Mafia a Godfather. The indie not really caring who wins isn't super balanced either, a Lyncher or Even-night SK would have made more sense. Adding an extra town to reduce the indie's power over parity and the swing from the Vig shot would also be more optimal.
 

TheCapsFan

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There’s only so much that the hosts could do to balance the game and fit the 9p parameters given. Thinking making some of the town PRs 1x would have helped.
 

Kaiveran

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Well, the setup was super townsided. You should probably replaced the Watcher with the Voyeur, the Doctor with a Bodyguard, and make one Mafia a Godfather. The indie not really caring who wins isn't super balanced either, a Lyncher or Even-night SK would have made more sense. Adding an extra town to reduce the indie's power over parity and the swing from the Vig shot would also be more optimal.
And yet Caps nearly pulled off the perfect heist anyway, which says a lot.

Seriously @TheCapsFan, G-fucking-G. You smelled blood and went in for the kill, and I don't think it's possible to understate how much I felt like cornered, helpless prey for the majority of this last Day phase, and I really thought I was a goner after my "slip". If you had been more vocal and consistent previously I don't think I would've had a chance.

@neopest, you played very well and came out of D1 nearly immaculate. If it wasn't for DW you guys might've swept.

@FinalArcadia
@Soulmaster
@DawningWinds
@HumanDawn
We won!

@Elementar @ReturnofMCH thanks so much for the game and don't be too hard on yourselves; I've made my points about the game balance in-game already and trying to make Role Madness work at this size is always hellish. You guys did good.
 
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There’s only so much that the hosts could do to balance the game and fit the 9p parameters given. Thinking making some of the town PRs 1x would have helped.
I mean, they could have split Smash 4 into two, since there's one on the 3DS and one on the Wii U

Watcher is never a role that should show up in a setup this small, even with two scum ninjas. Voyeur is a role that has all of the benefits of having a Watcher in a setup without the broken elements.

The good thing about being indie is you don't have to be right to win. Though if hammer was on, I would have hammered Caps with the supermajority.
 
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