SwSh Sword & Shield: Expansion Pass

[PkmnTrainerV]

grass/ghost oponent?

There’s no grass ghost with sap sipper, and if even if it were, Rillaboom would not Gigantamax in front of it.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

at least it can break wonder guard as a G-move, maybe in future they make it a sound move? or additionaly let it hit users in semi turn of dig or hit targets similar like Dragon Darts in double battles.

That point of view might be discussed when it happens "in the future", I’m discussing the move's effect on 28 March, 2020.

 

[Matleo]

That point of view might be discussed when it happens "in the future", I’m discussing the move's effect on 28 March, 2020.

still will be good agains disquise, wonder guard, ice face, fur coat and others that reduce damage...
even cursed body and perish body???

But you were right they should have gotten better seperate effects

 

[Knightwolf09]

I still think they're fine. I really don't see the problem

 

[AngryBinacle]

Don't set yourself up for disappointment; nothing indicates the Crown Tundra being bigger than the Isle of Armour.

Also, more ground isn't necessarily better.

 

[BackSet]

Don't set yourself up for disappointment;

Ha. If I had a nickle for every time I heard (or would it be read) that line.

 

[TechSkylander1518]

Sap Sipper users are a joke for You?

If you're using a Grass type move against a Dragon type Pokemon (since they're the only Pokemon in SwSh with Sap Sipper), uh, yeah, that's a joke of a strategy.

Azumaril with sap sipper and partial fairy typing can handle both.

Not in the game.

Giraffarig with sap sipper and normal/psychic can also take some.

Not in the game.

grass/ghost oponent?

Why would you use a Grass move on them, which they resist, when Rillaboom has access to Knock Off, Assurance, Fling, Snarl, Brutal Swing, and Darkest Lariat, all of which would be super effective against them?

This makes room for a ghost type with sap sipper in future.

How the heck does this "Make room for it"? Do you honestly think that if Rillaboom didn't get a move that ignore the target's abilities, then there was no possibility that Game Freak would ever make a Ghost type with Sap Sipper?

And hypothetical Pokemon don't change the usefulness of this move now.

at least it can break wonder guard as a G-move

Thank God, people have really been struggling to get one HP of damage on Shedinja with Rillaboom. It's not like Rillaboom has Acrobatics, Knock Off, Assurance, Fling, Snarl, Brutal Swing, and Darkest Lariat. We really need its GMax move to be worried about this.

still will be good agains disquise, wonder guard, ice face, fur coat and others that reduce damage...

A very small portion of the game's Pokemon.

even cursed body and perish body???

It's already been tested with Mold Breaker. These abilities are not ignored by effects like this, because they affect the attacker, not the move. (Just like how Flame Body, Static, Poison Point, etc. aren't affected by it)

I still think they're fine. I really don't see the problem

Repetitive design- The effects of these moves are identical not only to each other, but also to the sig moves of Solgaleo, Lunala, and Necrozma, the signature abilities of Reshiram and Zekrom, and the ability Mold Breaker, which is on Pinsir, Mega Gyrados, Mega Ampharos, the Cranidos line, the Drilbur line, Sawk and Throh, Basculin, the Axew line, Druddigon, the Pancham line, and Hawlucha. Considering we've even seen a new damaging entry hazard created for a GMax move, something that hasn't been done since Gen 4, it's not hard to see people disappointed about the repeat effect.

Lack of use- There aren't many times you can actually bypass an ability with these moves, and even fewer when you'd want to.
We can break down ignorable abilities into three categories:

Spoiler: Block the move

There is Wonder Guard, Disguise, Ice Face, and the respective type-blocking abilities for each starter.

The first three listed are signature abilities, only on one Pokemon each. Out of 400 Pokemon in the Galar dex, that's about .7% of them.

Sap Sipper is only on two more Pokemon in Galar, so Rillaboom's GMax move might have been blocked by 1.25% of Pokemon in Galar.

Flash Fire is on Growlithe, Arcanine, Flareon, Litwick, Lampent, Chandelure, Heatmor, Rolycoly, Carkoal, Coalossol, Sizzilipede, and Centiscorch. That's twelve more Pokemon to bring Cinderace to a total of 15 candidates that might block it in the standard game, and with Home released, we can also add Kantonian Ponyta, Rapidash, Vulpix, and Ninetales, bringing us to 19 blocking fire types (of which only 8 are fully evolved), and 22 in total with our original three. That's still only 5.5% of all Pokemon in Galar.

Water has several abilities blocking it: Storm Drain (on Shellos, Gastrodon, and Maractus, 3), Dry Skin (on Helioptile, Heliolisk, Croagunk, and Toxicroak, 7), and Water Absorb, on Arctovish, Dracovish, Araquanid, Frillish, Jellicent, Tympole, Palpitoad, Seismitoad, Mantyke, Mantine, Wooper, Quagsire, Chinchou, Lanturn, Vaporeon, and Lapras. (16 with Water Absorb, bringing us to 23 Pokemon in total with Water-blocking abilities (14 of which are fully evolved), 26 Pokemon in total who could block a Water attack from Inteleon. That's still only 6.5% of all Pokemon in Galar.

And that's just the amount of Pokemon that could block it. When we look at who these specific Pokemon are, there's even less use here. Why Gigantamax just to take on Shedinja, when every starter has some coverage against it? Why bother with bypassing Sap Sipper when both its users are Dragon type and resist Grass anyways? Why bother using a Fire move on any Flash Fire user even if you bypass it, when all but two of them resist Fire anyways?

Spoiler: Affect the damage

Fur Coat doubles the Defense stat of a Pokemon. It's only on Alolan Persian.
Ice Scales doubles the Special Defense stat of a Pokemon. It's only on Snom and Frosmoth.
Marvel Scale doubles Defense when the user has a status ailment. It's only on Milotic.
Solid Rock reduces damage by 1/4th for a super effective move. It's only on Rhyperior, who would only be affected by Inteleon and Rillaboom.
Heatproof halves the damage from Fire-type moves, so now Cinderace has a counterpart. It's on Bronzor, Bronzong, and Rolycoly.
Flower Gift increases the Special Defense of the user and its ally during harsh sunlight. It's only on Cherrim.

The total number of Pokemon that could affect the damage of the move is 6 for Rillaboom and Inteleon, and 8 for Cinderace. And again, this is just for the ability, and not other factors like typing. Would you be trying to use a special move on Cherrim when the only special attacking starter is Inteleon, and Cherrim would still resist Water? Are you worried about Rhyperior's Solid Rock reducing 1/4th of the damage of a doubly super effective move?

Spoiler: Other

Two effects in this category: Blocking critical hits, and Sturdy's effect.

Battle Armor and Shell Armor both block critical hits. They don't block the move, they just ensure that it can't critical. Battle Armor is on Skorupi, Drapion, Type: Null, Perrserker, and Falinks. Shell Armor is on Turtonator, Chewtle, Drednaw, Shellder, Cloyster, Krabby, Kingler, Lapras, Toarkoal, Corphish, Crawdaunt, Dwebble, Crustle, Escavalier, and Shelmet. That's 20 Pokemon in total (11 of which are fully evolved), or 5% of Galar Pokemon. 5% of Galar Pokemon where you can get a 1/24 chance to critical where you couldn't before.

And this is, again, ignoring who these specific Pokemon are. Nobody's like to use Type: Null in favor of Silvally. Drednaw doubly resists Fire, so no need for Cinderace to attack it, and it's doubly weak to Grass, so Rillaboom was likely to be fine attacking it in the first place.

Sturdy is on Onix, Steelix, Bonsly, Sudowood, Shuckle, Roggenrola, Boldore, Gigalith, Sawk, Dwebble, Crustle, Togedemaru, Bergmite, and Avalugg. 14/400 Pokemon, or 3.5%. Only 8 of these are fully-evolved Pokemon. And Sturdy only works when the user is at full health- a status effect, entry hazard, or weather effect could handle them just fine, too.

Negative trade-off-With so few Pokemon that this would actually affect, it means that it's actually less useful to have a GMax starter than it is to have a regular Dynamax starter, who would be able to set up a weather/terrain that would power up their move further. (an advantage that's a lot more reliable than expecting your opponent to use one of a few specific Pokemon)

 

[Knightwolf09]

If you're using a Grass type move against a Dragon type Pokemon (since they're the only Pokemon in SwSh with Sap Sipper), uh, yeah, that's a joke of a strategy.

Not in the game.

Not in the game.

Why would you use a Grass move on them, which they resist, when Rillaboom has access to Knock Off, Assurance, Fling, Snarl, Brutal Swing, and Darkest Lariat, all of which would be super effective against them?

How the heck does this "Make room for it"? Do you honestly think that if Rillaboom didn't get a move that ignore the target's abilities, then there was no possibility that Game Freak would ever make a Ghost type with Sap Sipper?

And hypothetical Pokemon don't change the usefulness of this move now.

Thank God, people have really been struggling to get one HP of damage on Shedinja with Rillaboom. It's not like Rillaboom has Acrobatics, Knock Off, Assurance, Fling, Snarl, Brutal Swing, and Darkest Lariat. We really need its GMax move to be worried about this.

A very small portion of the game's Pokemon.

It's already been tested with Mold Breaker. These abilities are not ignored by effects like this, because they affect the attacker, not the move. (Just like how Flame Body, Static, Poison Point, etc. aren't affected by it)


Repetitive design- The effects of these moves are identical not only to each other, but also to the sig moves of Solgaleo, Lunala, and Necrozma, the signature abilities of Reshiram and Zekrom, and the ability Mold Breaker, which is on Pinsir, Mega Gyrados, Mega Ampharos, the Cranidos line, the Drilbur line, Sawk and Throh, Basculin, the Axew line, Druddigon, the Pancham line, and Hawlucha. Considering we've even seen a new damaging entry hazard created for a GMax move, something that hasn't been done since Gen 4, it's not hard to see people disappointed about the repeat effect.

Lack of use- There aren't many times you can actually bypass an ability with these moves, and even fewer when you'd want to.
We can break down ignorable abilities into three categories:

Spoiler: Block the move

There is Wonder Guard, Disguise, Ice Face, and the respective type-blocking abilities for each starter.

The first three listed are signature abilities, only on one Pokemon each. Out of 400 Pokemon in the Galar dex, that's about .7% of them.

Sap Sipper is only on two more Pokemon in Galar, so Rillaboom's GMax move might have been blocked by 1.25% of Pokemon in Galar.

Flash Fire is on Growlithe, Arcanine, Flareon, Litwick, Lampent, Chandelure, Heatmor, Rolycoly, Carkoal, Coalossol, Sizzilipede, and Centiscorch. That's twelve more Pokemon to bring Cinderace to a total of 15 candidates that might block it in the standard game, and with Home released, we can also add Kantonian Ponyta, Rapidash, Vulpix, and Ninetales, bringing us to 19 blocking fire types (of which only 8 are fully evolved), and 22 in total with our original three. That's still only 5.5% of all Pokemon in Galar.

Water has several abilities blocking it: Storm Drain (on Shellos, Gastrodon, and Maractus, 3), Dry Skin (on Helioptile, Heliolisk, Croagunk, and Toxicroak, 7), and Water Absorb, on Arctovish, Dracovish, Araquanid, Frillish, Jellicent, Tympole, Palpitoad, Seismitoad, Mantyke, Mantine, Wooper, Quagsire, Chinchou, Lanturn, Vaporeon, and Lapras. (16 with Water Absorb, bringing us to 23 Pokemon in total with Water-blocking abilities (14 of which are fully evolved), 26 Pokemon in total who could block a Water attack from Inteleon. That's still only 6.5% of all Pokemon in Galar.

And that's just the amount of Pokemon that could block it. When we look at who these specific Pokemon are, there's even less use here. Why Gigantamax just to take on Shedinja, when every starter has some coverage against it? Why bother with bypassing Sap Sipper when both its users are Dragon type and resist Grass anyways? Why bother using a Fire move on any Flash Fire user even if you bypass it, when all but two of them resist Fire anyways?

Spoiler: Affect the damage

Fur Coat doubles the Defense stat of a Pokemon. It's only on Alolan Persian.
Ice Scales doubles the Special Defense stat of a Pokemon. It's only on Snom and Frosmoth.
Marvel Scale doubles Defense when the user has a status ailment. It's only on Milotic.
Solid Rock reduces damage by 1/4th for a super effective move. It's only on Rhyperior, who would only be affected by Inteleon and Rillaboom.
Heatproof halves the damage from Fire-type moves, so now Cinderace has a counterpart. It's on Bronzor, Bronzong, and Rolycoly.
Flower Gift increases the Special Defense of the user and its ally during harsh sunlight. It's only on Cherrim.

The total number of Pokemon that could affect the damage of the move is 6 for Rillaboom and Inteleon, and 8 for Cinderace. And again, this is just for the ability, and not other factors like typing. Would you be trying to use a special move on Cherrim when the only special attacking starter is Inteleon, and Cherrim would still resist Water? Are you worried about Rhyperior's Solid Rock reducing 1/4th of the damage of a doubly super effective move?

Spoiler: Other

Two effects in this category: Blocking critical hits, and Sturdy's effect.

Battle Armor and Shell Armor both block critical hits. They don't block the move, they just ensure that it can't critical. Battle Armor is on Skorupi, Drapion, Type: Null, Perrserker, and Falinks. Shell Armor is on Turtonator, Chewtle, Drednaw, Shellder, Cloyster, Krabby, Kingler, Lapras, Toarkoal, Corphish, Crawdaunt, Dwebble, Crustle, Escavalier, and Shelmet. That's 20 Pokemon in total (11 of which are fully evolved), or 5% of Galar Pokemon. 5% of Galar Pokemon where you can get a 1/24 chance to critical where you couldn't before.

And this is, again, ignoring who these specific Pokemon are. Nobody's like to use Type: Null in favor of Silvally. Drednaw doubly resists Fire, so no need for Cinderace to attack it, and it's doubly weak to Grass, so Rillaboom was likely to be fine attacking it in the first place.

Sturdy is on Onix, Steelix, Bonsly, Sudowood, Shuckle, Roggenrola, Boldore, Gigalith, Sawk, Dwebble, Crustle, Togedemaru, Bergmite, and Avalugg. 14/400 Pokemon, or 3.5%. Only 8 of these are fully-evolved Pokemon. And Sturdy only works when the user is at full health- a status effect, entry hazard, or weather effect could handle them just fine, too.

Negative trade-off-With so few Pokemon that this would actually affect, it means that it's actually less useful to have a GMax starter than it is to have a regular Dynamax starter, who would be able to set up a weather/terrain that would power up their move further. (an advantage that's a lot more reliable than expecting your opponent to use one of a few specific Pokemon)

It's not just about using the move purely to bypass abilities, it's just an added benefit. Already enough it's said they're stronger than average from all max moves. This is why I don't see the problem I feel you're just making a bigger deal out of it than it is.

 

[Poke Dragon]

I love Mold Breaker stuff, keep 'em coming, Game Freak!

 

[TechSkylander1518]

It's not just about using the move purely to bypass abilities, it's just an added benefit.

Your original point was that bypassing abilities was a good upgrade, so it seemed to me that was what you were talking about.

When Rillaboom get's Grassy Surge, Drum Solo will do even more damage, that can't be stopped. Inteleon's is more or less an upgrade to Snipe Shot, except now it ignores all abilities in general. And Cinderace was already crazy strong as regular Dynamax, But now it's stab fire move just got even more deadly.

Already enough it's said they're stronger than average from all max moves.

If it's not 50% more powerful, though, it's not as big an increase in power as they'd get with the weather/terrain from their regular Max Moves. Rillaboom might be able to set up with Grassy Surge, but Cinderace and Inteleon can't.

I feel you're just making a bigger deal out of it than it is.

My point is just "This is boring and not very useful, I wish they did something else instead of reusing this effect so much". How is that making a big deal of things?

 

[Phosphene]

How about some alternative effects for the starter Gmax moves:

G-max Drum Solo - raises the user’s Defense and Special Defense and makes them the center of attention during the next turn if in a double battle

G-max Fireball - guaranteed burn on all enemy Pokémon

G-max Hydrosnipe - boosts critical hit ratio of all ally Pokémon on the field

 

[Knightwolf09]

Your original point was that bypassing abilities was a good upgrade, so it seemed to me that was what you were talking about.


If it's not 50% more powerful, though, it's not as big an increase in power as they'd get with the weather/terrain from their regular Max Moves. Rillaboom might be able to set up with Grassy Surge, but Cinderace and Inteleon can't.

My point is just "This is boring and not very useful, I wish they did something else instead of reusing this effect so much". How is that making a big deal of things?

First of all Cinderace and Inteleon can wipe out things easily without weather boost while dynamaxed, Especially if the max moves have an even higher BP. Anyway the moves are still useful like you said you're just more so upset that they're effects aren't different. It's like you getting a piece of candy, but then complaining that each piece isn't a different flavor, but it's still free candy.

 

[TechSkylander1518]

How about some alternative effects for the starter Gmax moves:

G-max Drum Solo - raises the user’s Defense and Special Defense and makes them the center of attention during the next turn if in a double battle

G-max Fireball - guaranteed burn on all enemy Pokémon

G-max Hydrosnipe - boosts critical hit ratio of all ally Pokémon on the field

I like this, especially Drum Solo connecting to performing by being the center of attention! Fireball might be OP considering it would also affect their attack, but I don't have anything to suggest to balance it lol.

First of all Cinderace and Inteleon can wipe out things easily without weather boost while dynamaxed, Especially if the max moves have an even higher BP.

What's the point in praising the higher base power if they're already doing fine?

Anyway the moves are still useful

"Still usable" is a low bar to clear.

you're just more so upset that they're effects aren't different.

No, I'm equally annoyed at both the repetition and the lack of use. Even though I don't like Maxing and Max Moves mechanically, I like them visually a lot, and so it's disappointing that a design that visually used the Pokemon's concept in a dramatic and interesting way doesn't follow through with that mechanically.

It's like you getting a piece of candy, but then complaining that each piece isn't a different flavor, but it's still free candy.

New moves for Pokemon in a DLC is not a free favor to me lol, it literally costs money to be able to use these moves. And candy is something you enjoy with just yourself, but Pokemon battle each other and are made to interact in different ways- that's why there's a starter choice in the first place.

 

[Knightwolf09]

What's the point in praising the higher base power if they're already doing fine?

Cause as you had your issue about not being able to set up weather, the higher BP is essentially the boost without it.

"Still usable" is a low bar to clear.

I said useful not usable

No, I'm equally annoyed at both the repetition and the lack of use. Even though I don't like Maxing and Max Moves mechanically, I like them visually a lot, and so it's disappointing that a design that visually used the Pokemon's concept in a dramatic and interesting way doesn't follow through with that mechanically.

This sounds more like personal bias then if you never liked max moves in the mechanical sense to begin with

New moves for Pokemon in a DLC is not a free favor to me lol, it literally costs money to be able to use these moves. And candy is something you enjoy with just yourself, but Pokemon battle each other and are made to interact in different ways- that's why there's a starter choice in the first place.

Don't we kinda pay for new moves anyway? But that's not the point. Point being We have these pokemon that gained new powerful moves and here we are complaining they don't do something else. It just seems picky. Granted you're free to not be pleased with them. Just it feels the reason for dislike just feels like a nitpick more than an actual problem.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

The Dynamax alternatives of the starters are flat out more viable than Gigantamax, due to weather boost, and helping allies with the weather boost, but say what you will. The advantage for the weather stays for quite a few turns and helps weather teams, as well as gives a defensive advantage to Cinderace so it doesn’t get OHKOed. It isn’t threatened by immunity abilities. Found a flash-fire heatran? Just use Max Knuckle.

Pokemon like Charizard and Centiskorch are more viable as Dynamax for similar reasons.

 

[Knightwolf09]

The Dynamax alternatives of the starters are flat out more viable than Gigantamax, due to weather boost, and helping allies with the weather boost, but say what you will. The advantage for the weather stays for quite a few turns and helps weather teams, as well as gives a defensive advantage to Cinderace so it doesn’t get OHKOed. It isn’t threatened by immunity abilities. Found a flash-fire heatran? Just use Max Knuckle.

Pokemon like Charizard and Centiskorch are more viable as Dynamax for similar reasons.

You also miss one disadvantage. Weather potentially boosts your opponents team as well. It's not a one way street especially with how popular weather utilization is. Besides, Even if Cinderace gains and advantage in the defensive department from Sun he's weak to simple Ground and Rock weakness, which you see Ground moves more often than Water.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

You also miss one disadvantage. Weather potentially boosts your opponents team as well. It's not a one way street especially with how popular weather utilization is. Besides, Even if Cinderace gains and advantage in the defensive department from Sun he's weak to simple Ground and Rock weakness, which you see Ground moves more often than Water.

Yeah, but Gigantamax Cinderace has absolutely nothing to deal with that, too. It’s more of a fire type limitation than something related to the form it takes.

Gigantamax Cinderace is vulnerable to water, rock and ground, while Dynamax Cinderace may get a weather boost and lose water as one.

The situations where Sun would boost an opponent of Cinderace are highly rare (since most of them tend to be grass type or fire type, things which Cinderace doesn’t have to worry about).

I’m not talking out of thin air, it has precedent. Weather/terrains are a highly desirable boost and many Gigantamax are competitively inferior due to not having it, and getting some mundane effect like... ignoring abilities.

The Sun is more likely to help Cinderace than hinder it, and if you’re in a match up where the opponent is boosted even under Sun, it was a questionable decision to use Cinderace in the first place.

Sun is useful in more instances than no effect of ability. One very rare disadvantage can be tolerated over the total loss of a great advantage. And I highly doubt the G-Max move has enough power to compensate for Sun.

Hypothetical G-Max power: 160 at max (assumption, the current G-max moves cap at 150 so I’m being highly liberal with it)
Max Flare with Sun (Pyro Ball base): 140x1.5 = 210.

 

[TechSkylander1518]

Cause as you had your issue about not being able to set up weather, the higher BP is essentially the boost without it.

But that high BP only lasts as long as they're GMaxed- weather lasts longer and can still be used after Dynamaxing ends.

I said useful not usable

But what use is it beyond being a high-power STAB move, which they already have?

This sounds more like personal bias then if you never liked max moves in the mechanical sense to begin with

I don't like them because I think the high BP is too much, combined with the high HP of a maxed Pokemon and other effects like being unable to flinch, being unable to protected against, and being unable to be avoided, like I've said on the Dynamax thread. I'm not bothered by the move effects (hence why I mentioned earlier the interesting case of Copperjah's GMax Move giving us a new entry hazard for the first time in four generations), I just wish it was just the added effects at decent power and high HP, rather than everything else Dynamaxing entails.

We have these pokemon that gained new powerful moves and here we are complaining they don't do something else.

You keep framing this like it's a gift being given to people and we should have some inherent gratitude instead of criticizing it. Game Freak's not doing this as a personal favor, they're doing this as a business putting out a new product, and there's nothing wrong with discussing positive and negative opinions of it.

Just it feels the reason for dislike just feels like a nitpick more than an actual problem.

"This benefit is not actually helpful and it repeats a design element used several times before" is a bit more than a nitpick.

 

[Knightwolf09]

Yeah, but Gigantamax Cinderace has absolutely nothing to deal with that, too. It’s more of a fire type limitation than something related to the form it takes.

Gigantamax Cinderace is vulnerable to water, rock and ground, while Dynamax Cinderace may get a weather boost and lose water as one.

The situations where Sun would boost an opponent of Cinderace are highly rare (since most of them tend to be grass type or fire type, things which Cinderace doesn’t have to worry about).

I’m not talking out of thin air, it has precedent. Weather/terrains are a highly desirable boost and many Gigantamax are competitively inferior due to not having it, and getting some mundane effect like... ignoring abilities.

The Sun is more likely to help Cinderace than hinder it, and if you’re in a match up where the opponent is boosted even under Sun, it was a questionable decision to use Cinderace in the first place.

Sun is useful in more instances than no effect of ability. One very rare disadvantage can be tolerated over the total loss of a great advantage. And I highly doubt the G-Max move has enough power to compensate for Sun.

Hypothetical G-Max power: 160 at max (assumption, the current G-max moves cap at 150 so I’m being highly liberal with it)
Max Flare with Sun (Pyro Ball base): 140x1.5 = 210.

Considering G-Max fireball is stronger than the average g-max or max move, I can only guess it'll be essentially the highest BP possible being 200. So about the same boost as in Sun. So again, GCinderace specifically doesn't need Sun. Even if you argue the water defense. Again you rarely ever have to worry about Water let alone at what point would you ever use G-Cinderace against a water mon. Even in Sun he'd still get 2 shot easy.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Considering G-Max fireball is stronger than the average g-max or max move, I can only guess it'll be essentially the highest BP possible being 200. So about the same boost as in Sun. So again, GCinderace specifically doesn't need Sun. Even if you argue the water defense. Again you rarely ever have to worry about Water let alone at what point would you ever use G-Cinderace against a water mon. Even in Sun he'd still get 2 shot easy.

150 BP wasn’t the average G-Max Move, it was the most powerful G-Max move. A 1.5x boost is too much to predict if you don’t know what higher power means. And Sun lasts beyond Dynamax, so Cinderace remains boosted even after that, something which the Gigantamax cannot do

And you’re just proving my point that D-Max is more viable. It’s just a fact, with higher utility. It doesn’t need it, but it is helpful when it is set up. Sun gives no disadvantages (barring HIGHLY situational scenarios), and a series advantage to quite possibly the entire team.

This, when compared to a Mold breaker effect that doesn’t even work against everything, the choice is quite easy, and you’re ignoring we do have precedent that weather D-Max ends up being more viable than G-Max if the Gigantamax doesn’t have a highly useful side effect.

The Gigantamax has ignore abilities: a boost which isn’t useful 99% of the time, and a power boost Dynamax Cinderace can repeat (or even exceed) easily without what makes the fire Max move good.

———

I don’t know why is it so hard to admit that the new design doesn’t really stand up to the base mechanic when it comes to competitive.