SwSh Sword & Shield: Expansion Pass

[Esserise]

Hasn't that been the case for most legendaries in the past.

Not really...

Ruby & Sapphire didn't feature the Kanto birds or Mewtwo ahead of FireRed & LeafGreen

Diamond & Pearl didn't include any of the Legendaries that ended up in HeartGold & SoulSilver (with the exception of the limited-time Sinjoh Ruins event that gave out Dialga/Palkia/Giratina, and the Kanto birds that had since appeared in Platinum in the interim, but even then, neither of these were on the scale of the Sinnoh games featuring the Legendary Beasts or Lugia/Ho-Oh)

X & Y didn't feature any of the Hoenn Legendaries

Meanwhile, the Crown Tundra does feature all of the major Sinnoh Legendaries.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

There wasn't anything truly noteworthy that we didn't know before, though we did finally see Galarian Slowking and got a release date. I feel like I wasn't blown away because previous news updates pretty much told us everything we needed to know sbout Crown Tundra.

That music video at the end was amazing though.

 

[Kallyle]

I think at that point, we're kind of scraping the bottom of the barrel. Are there Pokémon in that list that I wish they would bring back? Certainly. But I also think that any justification for how a given Pokémon in that list fits the region is going to be a bit strained, or thin enough to the point where you could just as easily argue in favor of a different Pokémon. (Although I think that the "fitting the setting" reasoning prrrobably applied more to the Pokémon they were selecting for the base game, anyway. I would expect that more thought is going to go into the task of picking a core set of ~400 from a pool of 800, than will go into picking an extra 200 more to throw in as a bonus.)

You know, you have a point regarding how "fitting the setting" might have been more for the base game in comparison to the DLC. I honestly didn't think of that. However, only considering such for the base game and not for further expansions ends up with favoritism based on marketability, meaning those aformentioned "bottom of the barrel" Pokémon have even less chance to thrive in future games. Granted, no Pokémon will ever have guaranteed chance to show up again, but at least there would be some hope if Game Freak considered "fitting the setting" in the DLC as well. That in turn would also help to minimize the problems people have with Dexit and not view it as a marketing ploy to extort your love of lesser Pokémon for profit through Home as much as people currently do.

Besides, I think the Legendaries are meant to be an exception, given that they're essentially just fun prizes that appear in some random cave. It is that very quality of extraneity and detachment from the rest of the region that excuses them from the usual considerations of "fitting the setting."

I can understand where you're coming from, and under any other circumstance I would agree with you. However, this might not mean much to people under the context of Dexit.

Spoiler: Datamine Spoilers

In fact, the real issue I have is that legendaries and mythicals take up a good portion, if not the majority, of the returning roster of Pokémon. If there were at least a dozen or more "regular" Pokémon to balance things out, I honestly wouldn't care as much. Regardless, I still think that Cresselia shouldn't be present without Darkrai; I'd apply the same logic for Darkrai without Cresselia.

They'll justify the birds and the Regis because they actually are a part of the Galar setting, roaming the tundra or sealed away in old ruins.

I'd still argue that having the original versions of the Legendary Birds catchable in the same game as their regional variants goes a little too far in the immersion-breaking aspect, even if they are limited to the largely-divorced Dynamax Adventures.

And as far as balance goes, I'm still not convinced that a hyper-offensive meta based on centralizing Legendaries isn't what Game Freak want.

That would actually explain a lot, and I'm certain that's at least the case with the Tapus (especially since their abilities pair well with the new terrain-centric Move Tutor moves).

 

[Esserise]

You know, you have a point regarding how "fitting the setting" might have been more for the base game in comparison to the DLC. I honestly didn't think of that. However, only considering such for the base game and not for further expansions ends up with favoritism based on marketability, meaning those aformentioned "bottom of the barrel" Pokémon have even less chance to thrive in future games. Granted, no Pokémon will ever have guaranteed chance to show up again, but at least there would be some hope if Game Freak considered "fitting the setting" in the DLC as well. That in turn would also help to minimize the problems people have with Dexit and not view it as a marketing ploy to extort your love of lesser Pokémon for profit through Home as much as people currently do.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to suggest they didn't consider propriety for the setting as a factor in the DLC, I just think it's something they'd have to think more carefully about for the base game that is going to be most peoples' core experience with Gen 8. I actually do think that a lot of the Pokémon they picked for Isle and Tundra make sense for those locations. (And, personally, I also don't think there's very many on the list of leftovers that would fit the Tundra - Tropius could have gone well with the Isle, but that ship has sailed, and it definitely doesn't make sense for the Tundra, so if it's between that and a Legendary, I don't think there's any question as to which one GF would be more inclined to support if they're going to break immersion either way.)

At the same time, though, marketability is never not going to be an additional factor. For instance, I don't think the Kanto Starters really "fit" the Galar region, but they're popular, so there they are. Type: Null is another strange choice.

I can understand where you're coming from, and under any other circumstance I would agree with you. Hwever, this might not mean much to people under the context of Dexit.

And that's fair, but ultimately I don't think anything will mean much to people "under the context of Dexit" because Dexit itself is just an unfortunate position to be in, full stop. Whether they justify their inclusions and exclusions or not, someone somewhere is inevitably going to be left out, and will want to know why a Pokémon that they like wasn't able to get in while a Pokémon they like less was. It sucks, but it's the nature of the beast.

Spoiler: Datamine Spoilers

In fact, the real issue I have is that legendaries and mythicals take up a good portion, if not the majority, of the returning roster of Pokémon. If there were at least a dozen or more "regular" Pokémon to balance things out, I honestly wouldn't care as much. Regardless, I still think that Cresselia shouldn't be present without Darkrai; I'd apply the same logic for Darkrai without Cresselia.

Spoiler

I understand what you mean. I guess in the big picture of things, they might think of it like this: There's about 60 Legendary Pokémon in all, out of ~890 Pokémon altogether, so "every Legendary Pokémon" is still a very small minority. The vast, vast majority of included Pokémon are regular joes. It's just that the particular distribution across the two DLC packs makes it seem more lopsided - if half of the returning Legendary Pokémon had been included in the Isle of Armor, I don't think it would feel as saturated.

That said, I completely agree that the "Mythical" designation feels very arbitrary, and never more so than in the case of Darkrai since it is part of a duo with a Legendary. At least with Unova's Musketeers, having Keldeo be a Mythical made sense because it was their adoptee and student, and not a "true" member of the trio. On top of that, I definitely find myself wondering why it was deemed necessary to do the work needed to reimplement the likes of Celebi, Jirachi, Diancie, and Volcanion which can't even be encountered in the game and can only be brought over through transfers. I would think that, even if they're not considering some random off-beat Pokémon like Girafarig or Pineco, they might at least be more compelled to add a set of Starters instead a handful of Mythicals, since those are far more iconic and many people are going to have a close bond with their past Starters.

I'd still argue that having the original versions of the Legendary Birds catchable in the same game as their regional variants goes a little too far in the immersion-breaking aspect, even if they are limited to the largely-divorced Dynamax Adventures.

I do agree with you on that. Personally, I do think they could withstand to leave a lot of the non-Galar regional variants as transfer-only bonuses; I don't think they must be distributed within the game. But Game Freak seem to feel that they should, for whatever reason. Therefore, I think this is just one of those cases where they're blatantly ignoring immersion for the sake of completionism. Every Pokémon that has a regional form has been made available in all its forms in SwSh, so it stands to reason that the birds would too, somehow. An in-game trade or an NPC just handing you one for completing a task like in the Isle of Armor wouldn't make sense for the birds, so Dynamax Adventures are the obvious solution.

 

[Matthew Clerkin]

I mean, based on the datamine, the Pokémon that will remain left out after the Crown Tundra are:

Spoiler

Weedle line
Pidgey line
Rattata line
Spearow line
Ekans line
Paras line
Venonat line
Mankey line
Bellsprout line
Geodude line
Doduo line
Seel line
Grimer line
Drowzee line
Voltorb line

Chikorita line
Cyndaquil line
Totodile line
Sentret line
Ledyba line
Spinarak line
Mareep line
Hoppip line
Aipom line
Sunkern line
Yanma line
Murkrow line
Misdreavus line
Unown
Girafarig
Pineco line
Gligar line
Snubbull line
Teddiursa line
Slugma line
Houndour line
Phanpy line
Stantler
Smeargle

Poochyena line
Wurmple line
Taillow line
Surskit line
Shroomish line
Slakoth line
Makuhita line
Nosepass line
Skitty line
Meditite line
Plusle and Minun
Volbeat and Illumise
Gulpin line
Numel line
Spoink line
Spinda
Cacnea line
Zangoose
Seviper
Castform
Kecleon
Shuppet line
Tropius
Chingling line
Clamperl line
Luvdisc

Turtwig line
Chimchar line
Piplup line
Starly line
Bidoof line
Kricketot line
Cranidos line
Shieldon line
Burmy line
Pachirisu
Buizel line
Glameow line
Chatot
Carnivine
Finneon line
Phione and Manaphy
Darkrai
Shaymin
Arceus

Snivy line
Tepig line
Oshawott line
Patrat line
Pansage line
Pansear line
Panpour line
Blitzle line
Sewaddle line
Ducklett line
Deerling line
Alomomola
Tynamo line
Meloetta

Chespin line
Fennekin line
Froakie line
Scatterbug line
Litleo line
Flabébé line
Skiddo line
Furfrou
Hoopa

Pikipek line
Yungoos line
Crabrawler line
Oricorio
Minior
Komala
Bruxish

I think at that point, we're kind of scraping the bottom of the barrel. Are there Pokémon in that list that I wish they would bring back? Certainly. But I also think that any justification for how a given Pokémon in that list fits the region is going to be a bit strained, or thin enough to the point where you could just as easily argue in favor of a different Pokémon. (Although I think that the "fitting the setting" reasoning prrrobably applied more to the Pokémon they were selecting for the base game, anyway. I would expect that more thought is going to go into the task of picking a core set of ~400 from a pool of 800, than will go into picking an extra 200 more to throw in as a bonus.)

A pretty good justification for their return is that thanks to the Pokémon HOME, people are now paying for the "privilege" to not be able to use their favorites for an extended period of time or are at least waiting for the ability to release them from the service/prison. Having to wait a while for your favorite Pokémon to return to a game, because it "doesn't fit the setting" isn't gonna fly when real life money is involved.

Edit: I fully predict that future Pokémon games are gonna have certain Pokémon added to them for the sole purpose of minimizing the liability that comes from keeping them stuck in a cloud service for a vague period of time (at least if the Pokémon Company puts any forethought into respecting people's bonds with their Pokes)

 

[badwolf1234]

I think LGPE are pretty clearly an aberrant GO tie-in rather than a formula for the future. Remakes in the traditional style would still want to be largely compatible with the base games of the generation. And Dexit shouldn't be an issue because they can just make a patch, as they've done with the new and old Pokémon that have been added in the DLC. Regardless of whether you bought the pass, you still get a free update to make all of that content compatible. The only reason they wouldn't do this is if DP remakes run on a fundamentally different engine from SwSh.

Anyway, I do think @nickdt is right in that the release of a bundle pack greatly indicates that there's no more Galar DLC to come. In terms of the release schedule, you can think of it as comparable to USUM. So to me, that leaves just one question - is there going to be another Gen 8 game, or are we now awaiting Gen 9?

It wouldn't exactly surprise me if SwSh + DLC is all we got. Again, making the comparison to USUM, this would be like how Gens 5 and 6 only had two major releases, and how Gen 7 may as well have since Let's Go was more of its own thing. This would probably make it more feasible for them to get Gen 9 (which they are almost certainly working on right now) out in 2022, if they want to keep the three-year cycle.

But of course, it hasn't always been a three-year cycle. In two instances, it was stretched to four. If they aren't planning to put Gen 9 out until 2023, then I could see Sinnoh remakes coming out in 2021 or 2022. With more Galar content pretty much ruled out, that feels like the only real option left, especially considering some of the Pokémon that still remain Dexited even after the Crown Tundra. Whatever the case may be, I feel like there must be a break year in there somewhere, whether that's firmly next year before Gen 9 in 2022, or whichever year between now and 2023 isn't populated by either Sinnoh or Gen 9.

(Oh, not to rehash the whole tired debate of "Is Let's Go Gen 7 or 8?", but I wonder if perhaps it would make more sense to group LGPE, SwSh, and the DLC together as a cluster of Nintendo Switch-based projects, from a production point of view. Keep in mind that "generations" aren't actually a very formally defined thing. We know roughly how Game Freak's process works - the experienced developers begin work on a new generation almost as soon as the newest one hits store shelves, and in the meantime, the less-experienced developers work on smaller projects like remakes or enhanced versions in order to fill their time while they're not needed on the core project. From this angle, I don't think that LGPE had much, developmentally speaking, to do with "Gen 7," which I use here as shorthand to refer to a specific allocation of 3DS-based development. In fact, it was LGPE and SwSh that shared overlap in the way that you would expect a primary pair and a remake/enhanced version to. Here is an excerpt from an interview with Masuda and Ohmori:

> Pokemon.com: The development of these games must have overlapped with Pokémon: Let's Go, Pikachu! and Pokémon: Let's Go, Eevee! quite a bit. What did you learn about Nintendo Switch development from those games that you were able to carry over to Pokémon Sword and Pokémon Shield?

> Mr. Ohmori: Pokémon: Let's Go, Pikachu! and Pokémon: Let's Go, Eevee! were developed at the same time as Pokémon Sword and Pokémon Shield, and the two teams collaborated heavily. With Pokémon: Let's Go, Pikachu! and Pokémon: Let's Go, Eevee!, we were able to create the core systems that form the base for our development on Nintendo Switch.

Suffice it to say that on a technical level, LGPE had a whole lot more to do with Gen 8 than they did with Gen 7. Which to me sort of goes without saying, because arbitrary criteria like "Are there new Starters? A new professor? etc." just don't really affect peoples' work priorities like the fundamental question of "Which console are we developing for?" does. In that regard, it may be instructive to imagine this hypothetical scenario:

GBA development phase - RS, FRLG, Emerald
DS development phase 1 - DP, Platinum, HGSS
DS development phase 2 - BW, B2W2
3DS development phase 1 - XY, ORAS
3DS development phase 2 - SM, USUM
Switch development phase 1 - SwSh, Isle/Tundra, LGPE
Switch development phase 2 - Gen 9, blahblah, maybe Sinnoh?

... except LGPE are front-loaded to the beginning of the Switch development phase, for a variety of reasons. Again, this isn't to pedantically contend that LGPE are "actually Gen 8," but rather to suggest that they might've already filled the role in this development period that people are expecting DP remakes to do, and that we might actually be closer to Gen 9 than we think.)

Spoiler: Crown Tundra Datamine

Also, with the two horses that fuse with Calyrex, we will be up to 898 Pokémon this gen. If they add one more Mythical next year via a free update, then that would bring us up to 899 (and in that case, Gen 8's Mythical "trio" might as well be Meltan/Melmetal which, incidentally, does have a G-Max form much like how Diancie got a Mega Evolution and Marshadow got a Z-Move; Zarude, and then the next one) - and wouldn't it be cute to start Gen 9 with Pokémon #900?

Usually they have 3 mythicals per gen last gen we have 5 mythicals: magearna, marshadow, zeraora, meltan and melmetal

Spoiler

I think this gen will end in #900 question is will this new mythicals be included in the CT or will we wait next year for the new game?

 

[badwolf1234]

Not really...

Ruby & Sapphire didn't feature the Kanto birds or Mewtwo ahead of FireRed & LeafGreen

Diamond & Pearl didn't include any of the Legendaries that ended up in HeartGold & SoulSilver (with the exception of the limited-time Sinjoh Ruins event that gave out Dialga/Palkia/Giratina, and the Kanto birds that had since appeared in Platinum in the interim, but even then, neither of these were on the scale of the Sinnoh games featuring the Legendary Beasts or Lugia/Ho-Oh)

X & Y didn't feature any of the Hoenn Legendaries

Meanwhile, the Crown Tundra does feature all of the major Sinnoh Legendaries.

Except arceus and ALL gen 4 mythicals ONLY GEN 4 MYTHICALS ARE NOT IN THE GAMES!!! EVERY LEGENDARY AND MYTHICAL WILL APPEAR IN THE GAMES!

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/OakPropoganda/status/1310933822305964032

 

[Phosphene]

Usually they have 3 mythicals per gen

This is incorrect. Only one generation has three mythicals, gen 6.

Gen 1: 1 (Mew)
Gen 2: 1 (Celebi)
Gen 3: 2 (Jirachi, Deoxys)
Gen 4: 4 (Manaphy, Darkrai, Shaymin, Arceus) or 5 if you include Phione
Gen 5: 4 (Victini, Keldeo, Meloetta, Genesect)
Gen 6: 3 (Diancie, Hoopa, Volcanion)
Gen 7: 5 (Magearna, Marshadow, Zeraora, Meltan, Melmetal)

If anything, three mythicals is unusual considering only one generation introduced that amount of them. That being said, the mean amount of mythicals is roughly 2.86/3 and the median is 3.

 

[swiftgallade46]

Except arceus and ALL gen 4 mythicals ONLY GEN 4 MYTHICALS ARE NOT IN THE GAMES!!! EVERY LEGENDARY AND MYTHICAL WILL APPEAR IN THE GAMES!

I believe Meloetta and Hoopa are absent as well.

 

[Esserise]

Usually they have 3 mythicals per gen last gen we have 5 mythicals: magearna, marshadow, zeraora, meltan and melmetal

I mean the whole tail end of my post is kinda there to say that grouping Meltan and Melmetal in with Magearna, Marshadow, and Zeraora might be the wrong approach. Not in terms of the nebulous "gen" categories but in terms of Mythicals distributed over a certain block of time.

I believe Meloetta and Hoopa are absent as well.

And Deoxys

 

[Alola]

I like how Sword & Shield is taking gradual steps to allow players continued use of their Starter should they desire:

• Want to change a subpar nature to more optimal one? You can use a Mint; it also doesn't change your Starters inherent nature either, so personality-wise your beloved friend stays the same (if you have headcanons and such about that kind of thing).
• Want your Starter's stats to be the most optimal they could be? Take it along with a (Gold) Bottle Cap to Wyndon and Hyper Train to replicate such a genetic feat.
• Want to make your Starter even more unique and able to stand out via Gigantimaxing? It can drink a helping of Max Soup to make that happen; if you wanted, both you and Leon can have Gigantimaxed Starters face off with each other.
• Want your Starter's typically better Hidden Ability? Use an Ability Patch and watch Blaze morph into Libero.

It's nice because rather than breed for these attributes, your Starter can eventually obtain them all (with considerable effort). You no longer necessarily have to box your Starter for a genetically superior one should you choose, which really reinforces the supposed bond the two of you are to share (should you use Starters as such to begin with).

However, it sucks that the latter two are tied behind a paywall via DLC; they should be standard features, imo.

 

[Bolt Strike]

Wow, this presentation was even worse than I expected. I knew we probably wouldn't get much more info, but all they had to show was a minor QoL feature that was already leaked, details on a Galarian form that was previously revealed, the return of a cheap anime tie-in form, more pushing of everyone's favorite F2P scam, and a DLC bundle we probably all saw coming? Lame. I was expecting a "one more thing" kind of feature reveal, but it looks like they blew everything out on Crown Tundra's features months ago. This was pretty much 90% stuff we already knew about and the other 10% was just minor scraps.

 

[Minya_Nouvelle]

Ruby & Sapphire didn't feature the Kanto birds or Mewtwo ahead of FireRed & LeafGreen

Diamond & Pearl didn't include any of the Legendaries that ended up in HeartGold & SoulSilver (with the exception of the limited-time Sinjoh Ruins event that gave out Dialga/Palkia/Giratina, and the Kanto birds that had since appeared in Platinum in the interim, but even then, neither of these were on the scale of the Sinnoh games featuring the Legendary Beasts or Lugia/Ho-Oh)

X & Y didn't feature any of the Hoenn Legendaries

Meanwhile, the Crown Tundra does feature all of the major Sinnoh Legendaries.

I'm not really sure this means anything. Also, the legendary birds are available in both sets of games for Gen IV.

 

[Esserise]

I'm not really sure this means anything. Also, the legendary birds are available in both sets of games for Gen IV.

I made mention of that in the post, yes. But the Kanto birds getting a mild double-billing in Gen 4 isn't really the same as DP or Platinum sniping the Legendary Beasts or Lugia/Ho-Oh would be, because those are the iconic Legendaries of Johto.

 

[Minya_Nouvelle]

I made mention of that in the post, yes. But the Kanto birds getting a mild double-billing in Gen 4 isn't really the same as DP or Platinum sniping the Legendary Beasts or Lugia/Ho-Oh would be, because those are the iconic Legendaries of Johto.

Ah; sorry. You're right. Somehow my brain skipped over that part.

 

[Nero the Giant Whiscash]

Anybody know yet how much the Game + EP all on the the switch cart is going to cost yet at revealed in the crown tundra direct

 

[Ambrose7]

Wow, this presentation was even worse than I expected. I knew we probably wouldn't get much more info, but all they had to show was a minor QoL feature that was already leaked, details on a Galarian form that was previously revealed, the return of a cheap anime tie-in form, more pushing of everyone's favorite F2P scam, and a DLC bundle we probably all saw coming? Lame. I was expecting a "one more thing" kind of feature reveal, but it looks like they blew everything out on Crown Tundra's features months ago. This was pretty much 90% stuff we already knew about and the other 10% was just minor scraps.

I agree with you but the video was not cheap in any form. Was very well directed and animated.

 

[Bolt Strike]

I agree with you but the video was not cheap in any form. Was very well directed and animated.

I'm not saying the video itself was cheap, it's the actual content revealed that was lacking.

 

[WyndonCalling]

It's sometimes hard being a fan of the stories and characters of this franchise; it so often seems that TPC doesn't seem to really twig what it is about these games that we like, and why we're attached to certain personalities and plot events. Old characters sometimes return in shallow cameos and existing species get trotted out again to remind us of regions past, but it's just a pastiche divorced from the real reasons we enjoy those elements.

And then, occasionally, TPC unveils something like Twilight Wings, Origins or that music video and reminds us that they are capable of tapping into to the power of those moments and people. It's Red's intimidating stare and terrifying Blastoise, Kukui manhandling Elm, the solemn tension between N and the protagonist, the different running pace of the friendly rivals - it just oozes the level of detail that demonstrates a real understanding of why this world matters to so many players.