Team Rocket: Goofy Villians, or Dangerous Villians?

[PiccoloX]

As far as their true feelings for each other I think back to the first manga

Dengeki Pikachu was not the first Pocket Monsters manga.

Still came before the show, right? Or was this manga released afterwords? Now that you mention it Jessie's breasts don't look disproportionately huge, unlike that first manga by the hentai dude.

 

[Magma Bomb]

I've already stated my opinion on the matter several times. The problem is not about being goofy or serious, it is the exaggeration of these characteristics and lack of balance between one and another that is really bad.
I have nothing against a bit of goofiness or seriousness, as long as they don't go overboard with either.
Team Rocket were in their worst in both DP and BW because they picked these extremes. The former had their funny traits exaggerated to the point of just being obnoxious, were 100% harmless to the point of casually blasting off several times an episode, their obligatory appearences accomplished nothing of value and got the same gags shoehorned into every episode, getting old really fast and acting like an unnecessary road bump in the middle of more important events. The later got a sudden leap in competence to the point it didn't feel like them, had 90% of their personalities erased to the point they were nothing more than just elite mooks and apppeared once in a while with big schemes that should have been the job of the local regional evil team instead.
I must say the XY approach is making me get more used to them. They still lose, but they manage to pull up a fight and a threat, they didn't appear to meddle with the plot of the first gym battle, they kept their characters and the gags were not overdone. Yet.

 

[SammyW27]

As far as their true feelings for each other I think back to the first manga

Dengeki Pikachu was not the first Pocket Monsters manga.

Still came before the show, right? Or was this manga released afterwords? Now that you mention it Jessie's breasts don't look disproportionately huge, unlike that first manga by the hentai dude.

Actually, I think it was a tie in to coincide with the show.

 

[Pokemaster97]

I agree, at some point during DP, the Trio's antics really became tired and a bit irksome, while in BW they basically redesigned their characters into people who were unrecognizable. I feel like the XY series has a really nice balance between the two extremes of keeping them somewhat threatening while at the same time keeping their personalities intact. How they're handling them this season is a breath of fresh air.

 

[Dogasu]

Am I the only person who had absolutely no problem with the Rocket trio during the Diamond & Pearl days? The trio starred in a number of the series' most hilarious episodes, "Candy Musalina" became a real rival to Hikari and even made it to the Grand Festival (which itself was a fantastic continuation of her Coordinator storyline in Advanced Generation), they gave us the best pokemon departure episodes of that series (Sabonea, Dokucale), Kojirou's fiancee came back after more than ten years...I have no complaints about how the trio was handled.

Still came before the show, right? Or was this manga released afterwords? Now that you mention it Jessie's breasts don't look disproportionately huge, unlike that first manga by the hentai dude.

Dengeki Pikachu was released after the TV show started, which itself didn't launch until about a year after Pocket Monsters Red & Green went on sale. A number of other series (Anakubo Kousaku's Pocket Monsters, Pocket Monsters Special, maybe Pokemon Zensho as well?) came out during that time.

And "that hentai dude" is Toshihiro Ono and is indeed the man responsible for that image of a very pregnant Musashi that you posted earlier.

 

[Pikafanboy]

Yeah, I loved how Jessie was a serious competitor in Contests, even making it to the final four. Her battle with Dawn was rushed and horrible, but up till that point I was really enjoying her time as a rival. They did get much better departure episodes than Ash and company. I felt really sad seeing Cacnea and Dustox go away, and their reasons were really good. Not at all like that garbage with Ambipom and Ping Pong. Team Rocket was still great in Sinnoh for me.

 

[Flynn]

Yeah, I really liked the DP TRio. For once they were actually treated better and weren't abused so bad like they were in OS and AG. I loved their rivalry with Hunter J and the Ginga-Dan, and their relationship with Handsome was really cute. Also Musashi's capture of Yanma is hands down one of the best captures on the show.

 

[Bloodstained]

Honestly, I preferred them when they were dangerous. They were competent, their tired, idiotic humor was set aside for actual villainy, and for a time, they actually concealed the same damning flaws that have finally made me realize the anime is not worth watching anymore.

 

[Johtohfiller]

I also like the TRio in DP. I think the English dub handled them poorly, but other than that I have no problems with them.

 

[Pokemaster97]

Yeah, I loved how Jessie was a serious competitor in Contests, even making it to the final four. Her battle with Dawn was rushed and horrible, but up till that point I was really enjoying her time as a rival. They did get much better departure episodes than Ash and company. I felt really sad seeing Cacnea and Dustox go away, and their reasons were really good. Not at all like that garbage with Ambipom and Ping Pong. Team Rocket was still great in Sinnoh for me.

Well, yeah, I do enjoy how they handled Jessie's being in Contests and how they took is seriously, but that really didn't extend outside of the Contest episodes IMO. They did have some great moments, but overall, I felt like their antics were becoming almost overly redundant, and their battles were rarely taken seriously and usually lasted less than 30 seconds.

 

[Misty Calls Masquerain]

I'd prefer a balance between the two, but if it's just goofy vs. serious, I'd take serious. To be more specific:

Balanced (OS TR, a little of AG TR) > Serious (BW) > Goofy (the rest)

 

[ii kanji]

Puh-lease.
This thread is so full of garbage. I don't know what all you people have been drinking! Yes, that's you - the person acting as if Musashi, Kojiro and Nyasu were ever a serious threat. Even at the end of episode 2 they got OWNED by the rookiest rookie, Satoshi, and look like absolute clowns in the process!

If anyone can show me an episode pre-BW where they make a nuisance of themselves and don't look silly in the process, I will be gobsmacked.

Honestly, I preferred them when they were dangerous.

And when exactly was this? Even when they were mind-numbingly boring in BW, they sure as hell were not dangerous. They remained as redundant as ever in terms of successful villainy, just minus any of their redeeming features.

Am I the only person who had absolutely no problem with the Rocket trio during the Diamond & Pearl days?

No

 

[PiccoloX]

Kojirou's fiancee came back after more than ten years.

One of the funniest moments during this point was when James (you made me google the name Kojirou, weebo!) request that Ash "blast them off" when he broke up with her. lol

 

[Bloodstained]

Oh, uh, ii Kanji, I guess I meant serious, though they did seem more dangerous in earlier BW, and far less annoying.

 

[Lis]

Puh-lease.
This thread is so full of garbage. I don't know what all you people have been drinking! Yes, that's you - the person acting as if Musashi, Kojiro and Nyasu were ever a serious threat. Even at the end of episode 2 they got OWNED by the rookiest rookie, Satoshi, and look like absolute clowns in the process!

If anyone can show me an episode pre-BW where they make a nuisance of themselves and don't look silly in the process, I will be gobsmacked.

Nowone states that they were Voldemort's peronification in Pokemon, TR has never been much of a "serious" villian in terms of the threath they represent, however in the firsts seasons they give out much more meanningful battles and do give a certain intimidating impression (TR's first apparition consisted in destroying a pokecenter, where sick pokemon are, not minding at all how much they could have harmed those pokemon. In the episode you litterally see blocks of infrastructure falling apart) While they have never stopped being lovely-clumsy and adding humour and (back then) original jokes from a villan's point of view to the anime, they gave the impression to be villans who simply loved evillnes but could never really practise it (haha), grinning at eachother with mischievousness just to trip and fall in the next second.
But after the firsts seasons, they are simply presented as the holder of repetitive jokes that fail to entretain am interesting amount of the audience (according to what i've read at least, not this thread only) I think it is not a coincidence that many of those who saw the firsts seasons when they were childs tend to have a better opinion of the unpredictable but just as funny and original old TR than the one we see now, which is a little different in terms of plot and personality. Writers seem to have them on screen just so they do their clowny things, blast out and nothing more, while before we would see a little "developement" (even the fights between TR and the trio were more interesting. Wisin defeats Onix in episode 6.)
Also, I intended to make this trhead about their personalities changes primly, not really about what they did or do (they have never really succeded in their plans, neither before nor now, it's how they "failed" in accomplishing them what i am asking people's opinions about. Thanks though for your input about you liking them in the Diamond and Pearl days)

 

[Soniman]

I vastly vastly prefer the BW TR, it's true they that lost some of their previous personality….but then again I hated their previous personalities so it's no major loss to me at all.

A shame they went back to that shit with XY (though we are thankfully not at DP levels yet), I can only hope they don't appear in every episode at the very least.

And to those who say they were still on the same level of failure as they were previously must have watched different episodes then I did, because from what I saw they actually go shit done in the background, successfully completing plans and building up their super secret projects. It's only when the come into contact with Ash and friends at the big plan's climax that they lose, because whoa, guess what, it's a kid's show and the hero has to win in the end.

 

[Sweet Veil]

"Candy Musalina" became a real rival to Hikari

For the most part she was portrayed as a garbage Coordinator who got all her ribbons in blink-and-you-miss-it battles or from other people. She never was a true threat to Dawn in the GF and got hammered so quickly by her two weakest Pokemon it wasn't even funny. Besides that she became horribly flanderized throughout it all that her mentality embodied "stuck-up, mean lady" than any true characterization.


It's amazing how dead the Rocket fandom was in DP, there was one very active rocketshipping thread on Bulbagarden and that was it. Only super hardcore fans showed themselves in terms of interest in the characters. A good portion of people were apathetic or bored of them, BW comes and comedic Rocket fans come in mass. Suddenly everyone's a fan of "lovely, charming villains."

Dangerous TR all the way for being integral to the plot most of the time and having agency in this show outside of Pikachu-chasing 24/7, XY Rockets are at least a step-up from Da! and DP a bit. There aren't any Boss Fantasy or "Big-headed" scenes so far at least and their Inkay and Wobbuffett are useful at times at least. They're not being super-annoying and shoving them into every episode. But that doesn't overrun the fact they have no goal at all anymore and are still just there to be there. Hopefully they take this Mega Evolution stuff back to Giovanni and an arc. can be set up.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Im probably in minority but as much as their ruinning gags and repetitive plans before BW annoyed me at times, i still actually kinda liked TR goofy behavior in AG and DP. They had several highly memorable moments imo and i liked ever since Hoenn that Jessie became coordinator going in line with her vain and selfcentered personality liking to be center of attention. In fact she worked harder and relied less on cheating to earn her place at DP Grand Festival and there were many fun but touching momnts as well. Such as release of Dustox portraying howe caring and emotional Jessie can really be not wanting to stand in way of others true happiness or James realizing how Cacnea deserves better than what it has now with hard heart giving it saway to gym leader to become stronger and have better conditions to be raised in which was pretty strong quality of character.

In general i believe term stale and flanderized is threw away too often nowadays, even when this isn't the case for characters. Because way i look at this both Jessie and Jamers had divergent and rich characterization before BW which transformed them in serious villains showing their vulnerable and caring side, care they hold for each other not being able to live without themselves as emphasized in seemingly break up episodes and their fiery and aggessive, or in James case insecure subordinate side swimming in diverse characterization.

Granted i can understand if people grow tired of someone personality and role he plays, but as far as depth in personality goes and entertainment value its up to personal perception of how he feels about someone to decide if he manages to still entertain you.

With me admitedly i did grew tired abit of TR goofy scheams and constant failed attempts in catching Pikachu but at least infamous contest subplot of Jessie brought some new life in their purpose in pokemon. So that much i appreciated.

Now dont get me wrong as i mentioned in my post before i really liked how for once Jessie, James and Meowth became more competent, better organized and threatening than ever before with their serious demeanour being possible to pertain to immense level of pride they felt when becoming promoted from Giovanni not wanting to fail him down at any cost. Along with writers limiting their focus and involvement on episode basis showing them mostly just when needed to play role in secret mission where silly taunts and jokes would only take away from plot.

But side effect of not showing more of their personality and quirks which defines them definitely took away some of their appeal making me appreciate all that more renaissance all three members of JJM team experienced in XY series(better known as Kalos region to some). Finding nice and stable balance between more firm, competitive and goofy filled with humor, clash and silly pranks in characterization Rocket trio.

 

[dada]

Team Rocket: the best villains. They have hearts of gold. If you look at how they obtained their Pokémon there's no doubt about that. (Except for the ones they temporarily steal.)

 

[ii kanji]

repetitive

Unfortunately that is the very nature of the beast. A show that runs for so long cannot help but fall back onto its (overall successful) formula.

Whether or not you believe Musashi, Kojiro and Nyasu have undergone personality development or flanderisation, I don't think anyone would have that argument about Satoshi who has very obviously matured in that time (ignoring the BW blip). However, even he behaves rather predictably on the whole - the sum total of his behaviours amounts to pretty much pokemon battles and helping CotDs.

I would apply the same logic to the TRio - yes, they do mostly the same thing in every episode. But there's no denying that their characters changed (I like to call it development ) from OS to DP. And actually Musashi's contest arc, if it did nothing else, was the prime example of this (leading onto this next point...)

Besides that she became horribly flanderized throughout it all that her mentality embodied "stuck-up, mean lady" than any true characterization.

I bet any money that you watch the dub.

Whether you like it or not, from AG to DP she went from an unreasonable cheat to someone who trained and didn't want to take her 5th ribbon from Salvia! She also treated hers and particularly Kojiro's pokemon much better that she had previously. This to the extent that Kojiro's exasperation at her entering contests gradually shifted to supportiveness and by the 2nd half of DP he was happily loaning her his pokemon.

It's amazing how dead the Rocket fandom was in DP, there was one very active rocketshipping thread on Bulbagarden and that was it. Only super hardcore fans showed themselves in terms of interest in the characters. A good portion of people were apathetic or bored of them, BW comes and comedic Rocket fans come in mass. Suddenly everyone's a fan of "lovely, charming villains."

As if! What you're saying is just a projection of your own bias. The truth is that some people prefer the DP style Rocket-Dan and some BW. (And you know what? That's okay! People are allowed to have different opinions but that doesn't mean that one or the other is right or wrong.) Thus 2 different groups were active during these periods and expressing their love/hate. I think both vocal groups were equally big/small and that actually the majority of the fandom feels pretty neutral about the TRio anyway and only care about pokemon battles!

It's only when the come into contact with Ash and friends at the big plan's climax that they lose, because whoa, guess what, it's a kid's show and the hero has to win in the end.

plz m8 - this has always been true. Even prior to BW, most things they attempted to do were successful until they ran into Satoshi who foils it!!