It's in the Japanese version, I know people like to scapegoat the dub for everything but the behavior Team Rocket exhibit that I describe is very much there in the Japanese version as well. Jessie would regularly fly into her fits of rage and childish behavior over something minuscule. Jessie was never a generic, emotion-filled, vain hotheaded lady 24/7, she was always a pretty cynical woman at times.
The point I was trying to make was Jessie was still treated as a pretty crap Coordinator by the end of DP and rage quit them quickly and never was a factor in anything of the show.
I'm just saying it how I saw it, TR were largely a non-factor in DP and had gotten pretty stale, literally no large factions of people I came across regularly actually cared about them. BW comes and they becomes relevant, the whole Meteonite business and surplus amounts of fanart are put out by fans, general fans become more interested in them, but of course some dislike the change. That's okay, but you cannot ignore the fact the Rocket fandom was pretty horribly inactive at the time. But then again, I don't watch the show for Team Rocket's humor, I watch for Ash and his friends.
As i understand your point, i have to disagree due to evidence. Well known animes which Pokemon has previosly been compared to in this aspect precisely, such as Dragon Ball; One Piece; Naruto which isn't over yet, Ranma 1/2 and Bleach just to mention a few, had been and still are incredibly succesful anime with remarkable continuty. Imagination has no limits, and i assure you that with hard work; effort and a little talent any of these anime could easly launch another 230 episodes with great success.
Au contraire, mon ami, i'm sorry if i didn't make myself clear but i don't object at all that they have undergonse personality developement. All the other way around, they were probably the characters who have gone trough the most drastic personality changes (particulary at the beggining) it's about these changes being appealing to the audience what i'm trying to talk about; whether you consider them slightly shallow or accuratly funny.
As i said, i rather not get out of the topic. However:
Bubble Frog said:
Lis said:
You can't really compare May to Jessie at all. Jessie ribbons, literally all of them were won by other people or in blink-and-you-miss it battles. Jessie made it to the top 4 in the Sinnoh GF, too, but anybody can make it far in a GF of off-screen fodder trainers.
I agree with you, but I'm still very much did feel Jessie was a jerk in the Japanese version a good portion of the time. She would have her huge "big-headed" scenes often where she'd be a brat to them over Contest or their plans or something, was generally jerk-ish and an overruling matriarch of the three a good number of the time. But during the days of Kanto Jessie never was this mean, housewife screaming lunatic, she was always just a cynical woman with her moments. These character traits were flanderized, overplayed and overdone so much I couldn't buy they were friends no matter how much you payed me.
Jessie cheated by having James enter a Contest for her, so she did cheat. If May was given a pity ribbon from a princess she would have gotten a ton of crap for it, Jessie's three other wins were hard to swallow or care about because they all off-screen or quickly done. Anyone can win ribbons from off-screen trainers or Kenny. That's the point I'm trying to make, it's like the writers saying Bianca won two gym badges on her own with just her Pignite in early BW despite the fact she was portrayed as a not serious trainer all the time and a stereotypical dumb blonde makes the notion hard to buy. It'd say more about Jessie's skills if she had defeated Dawn in a real battle or brought Zoey to a near defeat.
Which isn't saying much since the epitome of Paul's character development was him drastically changing personality at the league because the writers needed him to be a certain way before his departure, as for Dawn her character was largely static throughout DP, people point to her spirit-breaking arc. early on as being character development but it was just her falling from grace and getting back on her feet, her character itself never really changed from that experience. But she become a much better Coordinator, her character just didn't change much.
If it wasn't for them not being given half decent battles and not appearing in every episode, I promise people would be back to being tired of TR. They're more plot-devicey in XY than characters but they're not appearing every episode to high jack large numbers of screen time so people aren't complaining. But no one's discussing or pining for their characters like BW, no one's wondering what the next big mission is or whether or not they'll grow or what'll happen with their characters. They give good battles like in the Furfrou episode and don't appear in episode and people are content. But that's just it, TR's characters aren't treated like they matter. They're just there, I guess I'm becoming to be okay with that because I've stopped focusing on TR heavily after BW or expecting anything big for their characters outside of catching a Pokemon I like that gets beaten regularly.
I agree, in Da! they were bad because the writers had reverted back to the same formulaic writing style for them. But in early BW and up until BW2, most of the time they appeared it was because they were integral to the plot and needed to be there, they had foreshadowing moments, big missions and all. Why do they appear in XY episodes? Just need some conflict and catalyst to solve the problem of the episode, needed a raging Garchomp, needed Jessica's problem with Furfrou solved, needed to show off Dedenne's skills, TR are your go to characters.
Jus' sayin'.
What on earth is your definition of cynicism? Because that's probably one of the last words I'd use to describe any of the TRio, least of all Musashi! If anything, they are the most sincere and passionate fools, more so in Kanto where their romantic element was still heavily played.
Lis said:
Bubble Frog said:
She made it further true, but at the end of the day I don't think anyone could say Jessie was better a Coordinator than May. IIRC, didn't the Sinnoh GF have a lesser amount of opponents anyway? 64 IIRC? Jessie's wins were all off-screened or won by other people.(Salvia, James) Again, at the GF it was nothing but off-screen victories and she was quickly dealt with by Dawn's two weakest Pokemon battlers. It's amazing how quickly you'll throw shade at Ash for not been seen training his Pokemon enough in BW but Jessie's off-screened victories are a-Inkay and the markings of a truly great Coordinator.Bubble Frog said:
I agree, she was a jerk in the English dub but she was a jerk at times in the original Japanese where there are no such things as mistranslations. James/Meowth comments about how Lickylicky not really being a monster, just a Lickylicky with a balloon thing on its neck, Jessie goes all annoyed big-headed snake-tongued maniac on them. Jessie spends the day getting her nails did before the Floroma Contest and acting like a brat princess, Jessie blames Meowth/James for her screw up at Lake Acuity like an infantile brat, Jessie does stupid crap like swallowing a Lum Berry instead of feeding it to her Paralyzed Yanmega because she thinks that'll fix its paralysis - her eating it, Jessie genuinely acted like an unpleasant person a good number of times in DP. Japanese version included, that's the point I'm trying to make. Jessie might have been a bit bratty in Kanto at times but it wasn't overplayed to the extent it was in DP.
But you could still really tell they were friends at the end of the day and they didn't act unnecessarily silly all the time and James and Meowth would do the same to their teammates, it wouldn't just be Jessie all the time. Just like how Meowth would claw their faces up or James called them both out in Jessiebelle's debut episode for their behavior.
Jessie and Meowth only wanted that treasure chest for the treasure themselves, as for James' lack of fear of Jessie using his Pokemon, he would be perfectly okay with loaning her his Pokemon in AG too, they were inconsistent about it a good number of the time, it was more of a running gag than a showing of character development on her part. Jessie straight up made James enter that Contest for her and at the end of it she still acted like a brat with her ribbon in hand, angry because James got more applause crossdressing as her and Coordinating than she ever did. All that episode told me was that James was a better Coordinator in one day than Jessie was her whole life. Though I agree, the Cacnea situation showcased them somewhat well.
But Jessie is not a better trainer than any Coordinator that matters on this show except for maybe Kenny, Glameow killed Carnivine, Ariados made a fool of Wobbuffett, Plusle/Minun did in Yanmega/Seviper with relative ease and weren't touched, her Dustox she had for a long time got ate up by Dawn's fresh Piplup easily, Combusken laughed off Chimcheco/Mime Jr.(Though to be fair Mime Jr. seemed to be doing somewhat well). Dustox beat Prinplup in a blink-and-you-miss it battle that hardly mattered. Anyone can beat off-screen trainers and Kenny and Jessie spent most of her appeals showing off herself rather than her Pokemon. She was a plot device for others more often than not. Jessie wasn't needed at the Wallace Cup so guess what? She didn't make it past the first round.
I just can't take Da! Team Rocket serious at all, they literally contributed nothing to the show at all. Watching them act a fool regularly turned me off from Da! a lot. Then again it was pretty purposeless arc. so I'm not surprised TR hit rock bottom after Episode N. For the record, TR acted comedic at times in Episode N but it wasn't all in-your-face over-the-top idiocy that was prevalent in DP and Da!.
I disagree, I liked the Nyagotiator arc. and its lead-in to the Subway two-parter a lot for example. I liked TR in BW because it felt like the writers were doing something new with their characters for once, they had a purpose in the show and agency on their own for once for the first time in years. You could literally replace Jessie's role in the Contest arc. in all of AG/DP with filler characters and the outcome would be the same pretty much. There's no point in TR having zero purpose in the show, comedic relief is not an excuse. It's the same formula every day with them, I half expect Meowth to fall in love with an Espurr or try to quit Team Rocket or something or them to disband sooner or later. We already got an episode of Meowth conning Pikachu and the others and it wasn't even innovative or interesting or different from the usual.
They actually seemed to know what they were doing and were handling high-class missions and technology, they seemed to grow as agents well enough in their own right. TR's characters have been largely static since the olden days but as agents they grew in BW.
Sokka from Avatar the Last Airbender is comedic but his character still grew, changed, was engrossing, and was integral to the group of GAang the whole series. It wasn't the same formula everyday and he wasn't used as a needless plot device most of the time. Even the Pilaf trio from Dragon Ball mattered more. Bonnie is comedic at times, but the writers aren't doing exact repeats everyday with her character. Why does TR's archetype excuse them from being static, flat, unneeded, poorly characterized characters? For the record, I'm okay with XY TR the majority of the time. Mainly because I like Inkay, the writers don't shove them into every episode to hijack large amounts of screen time, and they give half-decent battles. Other than that, I don't expect anything big for TR anytime at all aside from the same ol' status quo, XY is an example of them not being as terri-bad as they could have been. They were at their worst in DP, that goes without saying for me. After DP there was really no where to go but up with TR's characters.
Oh my goodness, this cracked me up so much! Even at the height of Musashi-mania during DP I don't think anyone tried to suggest that she was "a truly great coordinator"
Bloody hell, do you even understand what a personality is? How do any of the above (particularly the Lum berry example) make her a "jerk"?! Her character is (and has always been) that of a bossy & somewhat selfish, but (very) deep down caring person. I'm not sure what this argument even has to do with the original question, but the fact that you obviously don't like her characterisation doesn't mean that she was written any worse in DP than Kanto, or BW or any other saga.
How?
So why did Musashi and Nyasu agree to getting blasted off by Satoshi in the end? And in fact why did they even bother helping Kojiro at all after they found out what was in the chest? Clearly not because they actually care about him.
So what? No one is arguing that she is.
I don't know who any of these characters are other than Eureka, but are any of them villains? If not then you've completely missed the point.
It's not being arrogant, rarely do TR get many contributions from the fandom anymore. It's literally as if rarely any people care for them, how often do you run into up-to-date Rocket art for what they are today? Fanfictions, as well? Photosets? Analysis? All around just love for the Rockets from casual fans, no matter the site, just in-general. Before BW, there was one active hub of TR focus mainly. A shipping thread and that was it really. A lot ignored them or complained about them. If you ever felt mad about BW's TR incarnation, this sounds extreme, but their fandom was horribly dead before BW. BW comes, fans come in bunches claiming to be huge fanatic of lovely charming villains. But what did they do to show their interest before then? It's like a rush of success that comes with being famous. Perception is everything.
I never said that nor did I say everyone didn't care.
It's my opinion, my own personal musing, I'm not claiming it to be fact now am I? Peoples' opinions have just as much power as you're willing to give them.
I gave a counter-arguement, not sure if it was good though. Again, I never said all fans don't care. ii kanji on the other hands finds my post "absurd" and is "Cracked up" by them and I see you have nothing to say about that. At the end of the day debates are subjective, opinions are subjective and we're all going with what we find to be better or care more for. So please please please don't try to devalue my argument's worth because it isn't the popular opinion, especially when I've done my best to keep it clean and nice in my replies to them. And have looked at things from their POV and agreed with some points on their post instead of outright rejecting everything they say. Because that's not being a reasonable fan, rejecting everything another says that doesn't suit your ways of thinking, that's just being a hater.
