Team Rocket: is it possible their value to the show has "expired"?

[Enzo]

This thread is meant to be a space of discussion and debate over the TRio's recent and future places in the anime. Do you personally believe the TRio are still a must keep going forward? Or it's possible to write them off the show?

As we're seeing with JN, they have shown that eps without the TRio (at least, I have to add, in theory) can, indeed, work. And not only that, but it's clear they don't really know what to do with the TRio anymore. Then, how should they go forward with them?

NOTE: Also, I wanna clarify that the question being discussed is not exactly "Will the TRio leave after JN?", but rather "Is the TRio a necessity anymore, and could it be possible to one day to have a series without them?"

Let's discuss.

 

[RetroPokeFan]

I'd say they're still a must for the series. Much like Ash and Pikachu they are very much a staple of the series: the comedic villains that the youngsters can boo and hiss at whilst giving the adults watching a chuckle or two.

It's pretty possible that they could come up with some sort of ending for that gacha thing they're stuck with like say:

Giovanni realises that the gacha plan was a huge failure for the TRio so he ditches it entirely and that gives them the opportunity to go back and have Pokémon of their own again, just in time for the next gen.

I was thinking of a storyline for them where they literally go into battle with the villainous team constantly (in the classic TRio way of course) though they have done this a few times and I'm not sure what else to think for it.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

Ever since BW, the writers have been changing the frequency of their appearances and their role. Prior to BW, they appeared in nearly every episode, but here in Journeys, their appearances are very rare.

BW decided to take them on a more serious path for the first part of the series, with them being involved in a more serious mission and not being wrapped up in trying to steal Pikachu every episode. Eventually, they did return to their usual role after the Team Rocket vs. Team Plasma arc was abandoned.

XY saw them go back to their traditional role, with slightly more episodes without them. We also saw Jessie wrapped up in the Pokemon Showcase which provided us with some satisfying development for Jessie after she accepted her loss in a more mature manner.

SuMo saw them return to a much more comedic route, with Bewear being thrown into the picture. They were also involved in a feud with Team Skull, which was overall pretty engaging. While they didn't appear as frequently, this was probably the best we've seen them in years.

Journeys has seen their appearances at an all time low. Its rare they're involved or even try to antagonize Ash and Goh. They don't have a team to square off against and there's no female companion with a goal that Jessie can jump in on. It's almost as if they're here because of an obligation. Plus there's the infamous gacha machine. The only Pokemon they really have captured never appears.

I don't think they're leaving, but I really hope Gen IX's series has a greater role for them. Part of me wants to see a new companion for Ash that has a goal James gets involved with.

 

[ii kanji]

Ngl, I’m starting to think that the show’s value to them has expired

 

[P_S_B]

If Chloe became a Coordinator full-time and she carried over to
Gen 9 then that would get Jessie back in the Contest saddle.

 

[Jez]

There is still a lot of Team Rocket development that needs to be developed but is on hold.
Their backstories was scattered in puzzle pieces and incomplete, the past of Jessie only evoked in a CD Drama…

Also, they were often used as toons with an ability to change clothes in a magical way, to survive falls from several meters, Jessie's hair grew back immediately after being cut, etc... Perhaps, because the new anime gradually becomes less "cartoon" their characters are no longer suitable for that but in this case we can always explain that they used special Team Rocket devices to cushion their falls, that they changed outfits like the magical girls, also with a secret TR device etc…

I have thousands of unanswered questions for them. Including the main one: what happened to the pokemon they left at headquarters? Especially their DP pokemon that Matori forced them to leave there because they were forbidden from Unova??? (too suspicious for this region according to her but now this theory no longer exists)

I really think the Team Rocket characters can be reshaped into less cartoonish to better fit the route the modern series is taking, they can behave like in the movie "Coco: Secrets of the Jungle" and they can also have a more modern redesign of their uniforms, that would be so good and refreshing.

 

[Kurolegacy]

If Chloe became a Coordinator full-time and she carried over to
Gen 9 then that would get Jessie back in the Contest saddle.

Unless Contests start to spread to the far off regions, I can’t really see that happening. A shame honestly considering that Contests gave the female lead a high profile goal to pursue. Sure they tried with showcases but those always felt like a watered down pale imitation.

 

[Konja7]

Unless Contests start to spread to the far off regions, I can’t really see that happening. A shame honestly considering that Contests gave the female lead a high profile goal to pursue. Sure they tried with showcases but those always felt like a watered down pale imitation.

Honestly, I was never a big fan of Contests in the anime, because the Battle Stage part always looked like a regular Pokemon Battle in disguise (what's the point in the style or skill in the attacks if you can win by knocking your opponent out).

 

[Kurolegacy]

Honestly, I was never a big fan of Contests in the anime, because the Battle Stage part always looked like a regular Pokemon Battle in disguise (what's the point in the style or skill in the attacks if you can win by knocking your opponent out).

Can’t really agree there. When it came to Contest battles, there was always a stylistic flair to them and types of strategy that went into them that didn’t exist in regular battles. And while you could auto win by knocking out your opponent, simply brute forcing your way through was detrimental to you due to the risk to your own score that you’d be facing. In fact, the difference between a regular and Contest battle had proven to be a detriment for May when she had come to imitate Ash’s style and Ash when he competed in Contests within Sinnoh.

 

[kantoskies]

Their damned motto being stock animation for the past decade certainly doesn't help them feel fresh and new. I know I complain about it a lot but it really is supposed to be their "thing" and is something that helped them feel more alive in the Kanto and Orange Island sagas. Seeing the exact same sequence every episode for three years at a time and being able to count the number of variations on two hands really is so tiring. I am still baffled that the animators haven't tried being even a bit more smart about how they approach it.

I think the entire mainline anime can feel stale, after all how many shows can run 25 years and not feel a bit repetitive? The Rocket trio can become formulaic, but so can Satoshi and co. I think the Sun&Moon series really showed that, even after all these years, the Rocket trio can still feel fresh and new with actual good new ideas like Kiteruguma, Mimikkyu, and their secret base. I only hope that they are better utilized if/when PM2019 ends. I also hope they are given cleaner designs because, like their motto, it's been rough the past decade.

 

[SammyW27]

It also doesn't help that they're an archetype barely anyone uses anymore...

"Bungling Bad Guys" were really popular in kids' & gag animes back then, but now it just feels like no one uses them anymore. At least not anything popular. Seriously, does anyone in the anime industry even use Bungling Bad Guys anymore???
There are times it almost feels like the TRio are the last of their kind...but surely there are SOME other anime with them out there, right? Even if they're not very popular or well known.
(PS: No saying the Pilaf group in DB Super. They're not bad guys anymore. What's more, they suck now...)

It's especially heartbreaking that the TRio were at their all time best in XY and SM...and now they're back to sucking again

 

[JinksChow]

It also doesn't help that they're an archetype barely anyone uses anymore...

"Bungling Bad Guys" were really popular in kids' & gag animes back then, but now it just feels like no one uses them anymore. At least not anything popular. Seriously, does anyone in the anime industry even use Bungling Bad Guys anymore???
There are times it almost feels like the TRio are the last of their kind...but surely there are SOME other anime with them out there, right? Even if they're not very popular or well known.
(PS: No saying the Pilaf group in DB Super. They're not bad guys anymore. What's more, they suck now...)

It's especially heartbreaking that the TRio were at their all time best in XY and SM...and now they're back to sucking again

I think the Pretty Cure series (which will be 18 years old this year) is also fond of the "Bungling Bad Guys" trope? But I haven't watched the series personally, so I can't say for sure.

There is also the Anpanman anime, but since it's got an even longer history than Pokemon (first aired in 1988), the reason it features bungling bad guys is probably because it was popular back when it first aired.

For something more recent, there's a pretty good chance that the upcoming Tokyo Mew Mew New airing in July 2022 would feature bungling bad guys to a certain extent, if it is similar to the original series.

 

[jbmasta]

Unless Contests start to spread to the far off regions, I can’t really see that happening. A shame honestly considering that Contests gave the female lead a high profile goal to pursue. Sure they tried with showcases but those always felt like a watered down pale imitation.

Johto got a contest circuit during the AG saga, May following Drew and Harley there at the end of Battle Frontier. Unova is a possibility, and incorporating aspects of the showcases into contests like the audience voting could shake up the contest formula.

 

[Enzo]

Johto got a contest circuit during the AG saga, May following Drew and Harley there at the end of Battle Frontier. Unova is a possibility, and incorporating aspects of the showcases into contests like the audience voting could shake up the contest formula.

I sure hope they don't try to incorporate this into Contests if they ever come back. This was an aspect that I personally hated in Showcases.

It basically made the whole thing into a popularity contest rather than an actual competition where the best in all aspects wins.

 

[Konja7]

I think the Pretty Cure series (which will be 18 years old this year) is also fond of the "Bungling Bad Guys" trope? But I haven't watched the series personally, so I can't say for sure.

Yeah. They are fond in "Bungling Bad Guys" tropes.

The difference is that Precure changes protagonists and villains each year. So, even if they use the "Bungling Bad Guys" trope, it has variations.

 

[SonansuMan]

Never has, never will.

Even at the point in the series we're at now, there aren't any other characters that fill the niche of being goofy, relatable villains that you could shove in nearly any situation for a plot device and still make it work besides TR. They are the meat and potatoes of the series, second to only Ash because they provide ways to provide conflict on top of doing it with characters that you'd actually want to care for.

The main symptom of their problems in this series is that they have zero achievable narratives to follow, so they are entirely detached from the overarching plots. Their main purpose in the current series is to serve as conflict providers w/ the added gimmick of showcasing at least one new Pokemon in each fight, but as many of the stories in Journeys focus on providing conflicts in more organic ways, there's little reason to include them in most episodes unless they have no other choice. They are unnecessary in the grand scheme of things, and aside from the episodes featuring Goh's starters they haven't had the chance to be relevant in Journeys. You would think this would be a chance to give them chances to flesh themselves out on their own like did in SM though, right?

..Right?

I was optimistic that they would be able to further dive into the TRio's pasts like they said around the start of Journeys, but this has only been touched in a single episode, and even there hasn't been much delivered beyond a very brief Bourgeoisie/Cassidy cameo. The solution to the majority of their problems would be fixed very easily by just allowing them to be characters that aren't solely defined by wanting to catch Pikachu, but as long as they continue to be written as plot devices before characters (and even then very sparingly at that), I don't see this changing much until the next series.

 

[BigDocFan]

I think their usefulness expired around BW, they had potential as a more competent threat only to go back to normal early on

 

[Kurolegacy]

I think their usefulness expired around BW, they had potential as a more competent threat only to go back to normal early on

That’s pretty much because people complained about their more serious makeover. Shame honestly, because they had really only shifted the needle too far in the opposite direction but were on the right track. It would have been nice of them to keep their competency but maintained their personalities that make them relatable. I mean, look at Ash; he can be a bit if a goof but he’s still competent in his craft so why not TRio to keep them from being totally stale from running the same thing on repeat for 25 years?

 

[Insanish Danish]

Team Rocket are only as good as whoever's writing them, which is why I love them in some series (OS, SM) and dislike them in others (BW, XY, Journeys), but...regardless of their current treatment (which is like...please god, put me and them out of our misery already), I think writing them out would do far more harm than good overall. They provide what both our heroes and more serious villains can't, and I think the show would suffer greatly without them.

Bourgeoisie/Cassidy

I've been sitting here for the past five minutes trying and failing not to snicker like a madwoman at this, so thank you for that

 

[Adelon]

Yeah. They are fond in "Bungling Bad Guys" tropes.

The difference is that Precure changes protagonists and villains each year. So, even if they use the "Bungling Bad Guys" trope, it has variations.

This trope is also called "Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain".

In both Western and Japanese animation, this archetype appears more often in cartoons intended for small children. It is a good way to have drama without making the show too scary for a toddler.