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The Anime's quality will continue to spiral downward as long as OLM are ignorant to correcting their mistakes.,

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I have thought about conveying these thoughts in numerous ways, however, I managed to narrow it down into a couple key thoughts.
  1. OLM are too reactionary these days. They are so concerned with their audience that they will shape the show around this. The problem here is that OLM are ignorant of the fact that Pokemon is not a brand to be enjoyed by children anymore. This message has been echoed over the years, and GameFreak and even TPCI are now acknowledging that Pokemon isn't JUST a children's franchise anymore - it's a franchise to be enjoyed by all ages. Pokemon Go and Pokemon Video Game adverts no longer feature only children, rather people of all ages. However, the anime still pretends like this is a franchise to be enjoyed by only children.
  2. The Games stay the same. Why can't the anime? For better or worse, GameFreak has made sure that the games are played in the same way as they did when Red & Blue came out. Yet, the anime is not following in the same manner. The problem here is that Pokemon thrives through it's sameness. Do you think that a Pokemon game where the protagonist would stay in school would have been successful? Of course not. People buy and play Pokemon games to experience it's formulaic composition. Yet, OLM have forgotten that. They have changed the anime so much that they failed to recognize the reason that the anime has lasted all these years in the first place was that it NEVER CHANGED! The original series, Hoenn, Sinnoh were all the same. Best Wishes and XY had varying tones, but the core goal was the same as well.
  3. Let older people Enjoy Pokemon too: This cannot be stressed enough. Yes, Pokemon has always been a children's show, but the difference in the past was that it was not treating us like we were 8 years old. Nowdays, it is. Ash is now a reflection of the audience that OLM are desperately trying to grasp. And this will become even more problematic in the future when it might be too late to save the anime
  4. Like the games, the west needs to buy into the anime for it to survive. This is coupling all the previous points together into a clear argument. OLM needs to make the show adeptable for all ages; i.e., return to the formula that EVERYONE CAN ENJOY. Pokemon XY was considerbly more popular than Sun and Moon and POKEMON 2019 in the west. Considerably more popular. And the reason for this is because of it's tone. It was a children's show, but anyone could enjoy it. Dragon Ball is huge in the west. In fact, it's more popular than ever because it was able to stick to it's formula. It did not change and it did not need too. Pokemon did not need to change as well. XY was hugely successful, yet OLM were so afraid of the Yokai Audience that they went ahead and changed it anyway.
  5. Final Point: People in here may have their ideas of what works and does not work in the anime these days, but let us be clear here. Pokemon cannot grow anymore than what it has in japan. With the aging population, and the slight decline of video game sales we know it has reached it's peak. The growth for the brand is coming from the west. and it's coming from all ages. OLM needs to recognize that and give us something that we all can enjoy
Also, bring back team rocket you cowards!
 
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I don't think Dragon Ball is the best example of sticking to the original formula. It went from a journey to the west type of kids adventure show with globe hopping heroes fighting evil organizations bent on world domination with plenty of comedic battles thrown in and some serious tournaments into a shonen power level fest where the earth is in danger of exploding every arc.

And Dragon Ball Super has been rightfully criticized for beating the formula to death, and not actually reaching the greatest heights of Dragon Ball Z. Only the recent Broly movie and the positive reaction to his reinvention seems to have turned that opinion around into something more favorable. Note they changed a classic character and his backstory pretty drastically, they didn't just keep him the same to avoid taking unnecessary risks.

Point being, while I agree with many of the criticisms of the new show, I think advocating for a wholesale return to pre-Sun and Moon Pokemon may also be a mistake. The franchise should be able to adapt and grow. You can include old characters and plotlines and be respectful of the canon while still trying new things, that is all most fans are asking for.
 
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I don't think Dragon Ball is the best example of sticking to the original formula. It went from a journey to the west type of kids adventure show with world hopping heroes fighting evil organizations bent on world domination with plenty of comedic battles thrown in and some serious tournaments into a shonen power level fest where the earth is in danger of exploding every arc.

And Dragon Ball Super has been rightfully criticized for beating the formula to death, and not actually reaching the greatest heights of Dragon Ball Z. Only the recent Broly movie and the positive reaction to his reinvention seems to have turned that opinion around into something more favorable. Note they changed a classic character and his backstory pretty drastically in this case, they didn't just keep him the same to avoid taking unnecessary risks.

Point being, while I agree with many of the criticisms of the new show, I think advocating for a wholesale return to pre-Sun and Moon Pokemon may also be a mistake. The franchise should be able to adapt and grow. You can include old characters and plotlines and be respectful of the canon while still trying new things, that is all most fans are asking for.
Why do you think it would be a mistake for the anime to return to it's Pre-Sun and Moon formula when it was literally copying the games themselves? Go to a new region, catch pokemon, collect the gym badges, go to the league. This is literally what the video games are about. So again, why would it be a mistake for the anime to return to this? They're multitude of ways for the anime to evolve through this formula, not trying to create a new one. Ash could have a traveling female rival. Ash could travel with a different amount of friends. Ash could visit two regions, etc. Why not try to make the formula that already works better?
 
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You can't make the case for the series being for "all ages" while wanting it to stick with the same formula forever. There's just so many times you can show the same thing over and over again before it becomes too stale for anyone who's been watching long enough. The only reason the formulaic structure to the show somewhat worked is because there were always new kids watching the show that wouldn't mind if something they've been watching had already been done to the death. At that point only hardcore fans will stay, and no franchise would ever want that.

Aside from that, and this is only my personal opinion, but OS-XY was the most kid friendly/safe the show has ever been. Slapstick and comedy that relies more on exaggeration and contrast doesn't make the show any less mature than comedy based around repetition. Plus almost every conflict that ever happened in the formulaic era of the show was often, if not almost always, extremely cartoony anyway. And let's stop pretending Pokémon before SM wasn't most frequently seen as an outright terrible show by older non-fans of the the anime. I saw way more people that dropped the show for good years ago come back for SM than for any other series.

Also let's not pretend the games aren't held to heavy scrutiny due to their lack of innovation. Being in a Pokémon forum might make it difficult to realize, but despite its monstrous sales, the games haven't really succeeded at captivating any meaningful new audience outside their target demography in quite a while, with the big exception being Pokémon GO, which definitely doesn't stick to the formula of the main series games.
 
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For better or worse, GameFreak has made sure that the games are played in the same way as they did when Red & Blue came out. Yet, the anime is not following in the same manner. The problem here is that Pokemon thrives through it's sameness.
This may have been true up to a point, but since Sword and Shield there's a growing sentiment that Pokemon's sameness is a millstone around the series' neck; that its adherence to conventions and ideas established in the late 90s is actively holding the series back from developing into something greater than it is.

Meanwhile, fans have been weary of the anime's sameness for a far longer amount of time. In fact, after the initial boom died down, Pokemon's ratings were suffering to such an extent that the staff at the time decided to remove Misty from the cast and introduce a new character (which you can read about more here.) Pokemon's "decline" has been occurring for nearly two decades. It's far from a recent event.

They have changed the anime so much that they failed to recognize the reason that the anime has lasted all these years in the first place was that it NEVER CHANGED! The original series, Hoenn, Sinnoh were all the same. Best Wishes and XY had varying tones, but the core goal was the same as well.
Attributing the anime's longevity to its consistency in pumping out the same content feels tenuous to me. There's a danger here of assuming that the reason you continued watching the show over the years is the same reason everyone else had for watching the show, when in reality there are a myriad of reasons.

  1. This is coupling all the previous points together into a clear argument. OLM needs to make the show adeptable for all ages; i.e., return to the formula that EVERYONE CAN ENJOY. Pokemon XY was considerbly more popular than Sun and Moon and POKEMON 2019 in the west. Considerably more popular. And the reason for this is because of it's tone. It was a children's show, but anyone could enjoy it. Dragon Ball is huge in the west. In fact, it's more popular than ever because it was able to stick to it's formula. It did not change and it did not need too. Pokemon did not need to change as well. XY was hugely successful, yet OLM were so afraid of the Yokai Audience that they went ahead and changed it anyway.
  2. Final Point: People in here may have their ideas of what works and does not work in the anime these days, but let us be clear here. Pokemon cannot grow anymore than what it has in japan. With the aging population, and the slight decline of video game sales we know it has reached it's peak. The growth for the brand is coming from the west. and it's coming from all ages. OLM needs to recognize that and give us something that we all can enjoy
The problem I have with your argument is your idea of what a product "everyone can enjoy" is. As I referenced above, it's more like you're advocating for the show to return to the state you enjoyed more, which is fine, but you're then assuming that what you want is also what "everyone" wants, which is blatantly untrue. And I can say that because I enjoyed Sun and Moon more than XY. The show returning to how it was would not be for "everyone", by definition, because I wouldn't enjoy it. Similarly, the idea that Sun and Moon can't be enjoyed by "everyone" is also untrue because I, a full-grown adult, enjoyed that series even though it was supposedly doubling down on its kids audience. For what it's worth, I'm not enjoying PM 2019 as much, but that has nothing to do with how adult/kid friendly it is and everything to do with how it's handling its premise and characters.

If you have the facts and figures to substantiate your claims that OLM made a mistake, then you need to provide them, otherwise a lot of your claims feel empty. If you're arguing on qualitative grounds - that you believe older Pokemon is better and therefore should stay around, then that's different. But when you make a claim like this:

"With the aging population, and the slight decline of video game sales we know it has reached it's peak. The growth for the brand is coming from the west. and it's coming from all ages. OLM needs to recognize that and give us something that we all can enjoy"

You need the hard evidence to back that up. As it is, it's just a massive assumption and a weak justification for wanting the show to be tailored specifically to what you want.

Aside from that, and this is only my personal opinion, but OS-XY was the most kid friendly/safe the show has ever been. Slapstick and comedy that relies more on exaggeration and contrast doesn't make the show any less mature than comedy based around repetition. Plus almost every conflict that ever happened in the formulaic era of the show was often, if not almost always, extremely cartoony anyway. And let's stop pretending Pokémon before SM wasn't most frequently seen as an outright terrible show by older non-fans of the the anime. I saw way more people that dropped the show for good years ago come back for SM than for any other series.
It's worth mentioning that people came back for XY, too.

That aside, I agree with what you're saying. There's this persistent idea that shows like DP and XY were "serious, mature shows" while SM was "too goofy and for kids", when in reality every Pokemon season has always been a mix of the two.
 
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You can't make the case for the series being for "all ages" while wanting it to stick with the same formula forever. There's just so many times you can show the same thing over and over again before it becomes too stale for anyone who's been watching long enough. The only reason the formulaic structure to the show somewhat worked is because there were always new kids watching the show that wouldn't mind if something they've been watching had already been done to the death. At that point only hardcore fans will stay, and no franchise would ever want that.

Aside from that, and this is only my personal opinion, but OS-XY was the most kid friendly/safe the show has ever been. Slapstick and comedy that relies more on exaggeration and contrast doesn't make the show any less mature than comedy based around repetition. Plus almost every conflict that ever happened in the formulaic era of the show was often, if not almost always, extremely cartoony anyway. And let's stop pretending Pokémon before SM wasn't most frequently seen as an outright terrible show by older non-fans of the the anime. I saw way more people that dropped the show for good years ago come back for SM than for any other series.

Also let's not pretend the games aren't held to heavy scrutiny due to their lack of innovation. Being in a Pokémon forum might make it difficult to realize, but despite its monstrous sales, the games haven't really succeeded at captivating any meaningful new audience outside their target demography in quite a while, with the big exception being Pokémon GO, which definitely doesn't stick to the formula of the main series games.
No offense, but your argument is entirely baseless here. Firstly, I did not say the anime should be for all ages. I said it should be able to be enjoyed by everyone from all ages. That is an entirely different notion and the previous series was that. Remind me again in any moment in sun and moon that exceeded the audience reaction like the sinnoh and Kalos leagues? Ash winning the alola league is the only comparison and the only reason why people watched it was to see him win. Not for the league itself.

Secondly, you said the audience would not be able to commit to the show if it remained the same. Yet, you failed to recognise that the formula was working before the change. XY was a huge success, much more than Sun and Moon (I have various points of evidence to support this so I wouldn't bother). So I'm not sure what you were getting at there.

Thirdly, you really think slapstick comedy offers a greater thematic depth than anything before hand. Did you even watch XYZ or Sinnoh where hunter J pretty much was shown to have died? Find me any slapstick comedic moment in sun and moon that mirrors this?

Fourth: you say more people rejoined the series when Sun and Moon came along despite the fact that audience engagement, viewership and social media reactions proves that statement to be completely wrong. Stop projecting your own viewpoints as the truth here. I'm saying this because while my argument is completely opinionated (like yours) I'm at least trying to back them up. To add to this, I have been a member of the pokemon communities since 2008 and Sinnoh and XY was the peak of the fan engagement. The moderators here would know this as well.

The games criticisms are not due to its formula. It's due to Gamefreak being regarded as lazy. Which is a different argument all together. And it's true.
 
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"Citation needed" is written all over this thread. At any rate, the show is targeted at kids and thus it's their opinion that matters most. Adults don't need the anime to get them to buy the games, TCG or toys.

The games don't need to change because their sales have been overall stable since the "fad" ended. This hasn't been the case for the anime since the Kanto days (it declined, stabilized and then declined some more), and no, the XY era was not a high point. Just look at the movies' box office numbers and TPCi's dwindling profits in 2015. Those are a lot more telling than TV ratings, which weren't great for XY, either.

Also, SM definitely had "mature" moments like Lillie's fear of Nihilego/Silvally, Guzzlord taking over an AU city, two deaths (Stoutland and Mallow's mom's) and Mohn's unexplained disappearance. Honestly, J's perceived death was just a way to pander to angsty teenagers.
 
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No offense, but your argument is entirely baseless here. Firstly, I did not say the anime should be for all ages. I said it should be able to be enjoyed by everyone from all ages. That is an entirely different notion and the previous series was that. Remind me again in any moment in sun and moon that exceeded the audience reaction like the sinnoh and Kalos leagues? Ash winning the alola league is the only comparison and the only reason why people watched it was to see him win. Not for the league itself.
Animation fans in general gushed over Sun and Moon's consistently top tier animation. The most emotional beats in the show hit a lot of people I know harder than anything the show had ever put out yet. I remember the world building aspect being praised by a lot of internet reviews. The lack of the old episodic formula allowed people to enjoy the show without having to prephrase it with "Already seen it".

Secondly, you said the audience would not be able to commit to the show if it remained the same. Yet, you failed to recognize that the formula was working before the change. XY was a huge success, much more than Sun and Moon (I have various points of evidence to support this so I wouldn't bother). So I'm not sure what you were getting at there.
Were they that successful, though? XY's viewership dropped like 60% iirc, and there wasn't even a time slot change then to sort of justify it. And even then, even if you think this is just television dying, its movies did terribly compared to past ones, and cinema is still going strong when you take into consideration that most of the highest grossing films are sort of recent, even when adjusted for inflation. Truth was that every series, despite quality, was doing worse than the last one. The show wasn't pulling in new viewers faster than the older ones were leaving. Pretending everything was fine then is a little bit misguided.

Thirdly, you really think slapstick comedy offers a greater thematic depth than anything before hand. Did you even watch XYZ or Sinnoh where hunter J pretty much was shown to have died? Find me any slapstick comedic moment in sun and moon that mirrors this?
You missed my point entirely there. Why don't you better attempt to compare the "comedy" moments in past series (which I remind you weren't that far and in between but pretty common instead) to the "childish" slapstick. Past series went overboard with repetition as a form of comedy (see catch phrases and gags). Also let's not pretend SM didn't have some of the most emotional and serious beats in the series either.

Fourth: you say more people rejoined the series when Sun and Moon came along despite the fact that audience engagement, viewership and social media reactions proves that statement to be completely wrong. Stop projecting your own viewpoints as the truth here. I'm saying this because while my argument is completely opinionated (like yours) I'm at least trying to back them up. To add to this, I have been a member of the pokemon communities since 2008 and Sinnoh and XY was the peak of the fan engagement. The moderators here would know this as well.
That's exactly my point. The classic/formulaic show appeals specifically to the people that would join a forum to talk about this specific anime. Those who stuck around long enough and are old enough to have free access to the internet and aren't bothered by the repetitive nature of it. These don't represent the actual majority of people that started watching Pokémon since the beginning, since most dropped it eventually (and I honestly don't think this needs any proof). On the other hand, most "anime in general" communities barely even talked about Pokémon and whenever mentioned it was only to mock it by how cheesy/repetitive it was. I only started seeing some positive reactions BY OUTSIDERS after SM.

It's worth mentioning that people came back for XY, too.

That aside, I agree with what you're saying. There's this persistent idea that shows like DP and XY were "serious, mature shows" while SM was "too goofy and for kids", when in reality every Pokemon season has always been a mix of the two.
Fair enough, I would make the case it was mostly in the beginning and during XY&Z, though.
 
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XY was an internet friendly show. It's battles were explosive, with a lot of dynamic movement and excellent animation, which made them perfect for sharing on Twitter or Youtube. It had Serena as the most overt shipping bait since Misty. It even featured a competent Ash, who forum-dwellers such as ourselves were convinced was "older and more mature". The show was marketable and good at generating noise.

But, noise on the internet is not the same as noise in reality. A swelling of engagement on forums and social media is indicative of the show connecting with the specific part of the audience who hang out in those spaces, but is not representative of the fanbase at large. As pointed out, the movies during this time didn't perform as well as older Pokemon movies, suggesting that Pokemon, at that time, was not as attractive to a casual fan or to families taking their kids out. Immediately following this period, Pokemon changed its approach to movies, from extensions to the animated series currently airing to AUs. At the same time, the TV series underwent its most drastic change.

This isn't to suggest XY was unsuccessful, but something during those three years prompted a change. Maybe it had been planned all along - maybe XY was the last hoorah for the old tradition - but generally, hugely successful shows prompt more of the same (and a doubling down on the aspects they made it so successful in the first place) and its interesting they opted for something different instead.
 
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This is coupling all the previous points together into a clear argument. OLM needs to make the show adeptable for all ages; i.e., return to the formula that EVERYONE CAN ENJOY. Pokemon XY was considerbly more popular than Sun and Moon and POKEMON 2019 in the west. Considerably more popular. And the reason for this is because of it's tone. It was a children's show, but anyone could enjoy it. Dragon Ball is huge in the west. In fact, it's more popular than ever because it was able to stick to it's formula. It did not change and it did not need too. Pokemon did not need to change as well. XY was hugely successful, yet OLM were so afraid of the Yokai Audience that they went ahead and changed it anyway.
First off, that is what they are literally doing with the new series. PM heavy emphasis on Kanto/Johto isn't there just because. The whole point of the new series is to make it a more family friendly product like it was with the first season. Honestly, this has been the company's MO for the last several years with the Let's go games and the AU movies. Also, who gives a crap what the west think. Western fans overrate how much they actually matter. Pokemon's primary target is Japanese kids, not older western fans who dominate online forums. Second, XY was not this huge success. TV ratings do not mean anything, but Pokemon had a poor year in terms of revenue brought in in 2015 and it took the 20th anniversary and Pokemon GO to recover. The XY movies box office numbers were a disaster, and the reboot/remake movies had to clean up the messes they left. It wasn't some golden time for the franchise just because western fans liked the series. By in large, Kysel is right. Outside of the online Pokemon fandom (which is in it's own bubble), the series was seen as stale and repetitive. No matter what anyone thinks about SM, it was obvious that the classic formula was on it's last legs.
 
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First off, that is what they are literally doing with the new series. PM heavy emphasis on Kanto/Johto isn't there just because. The whole point of the new series is to make it a more family friendly product like it was with the first season. Honestly, this has been the company's MO for the last several years with the Let's go games and the AU movies. Also, who gives a crap what the west think. Western fans overrate how much they actually matter. Pokemon's primary target is Japanese kids, not older western fans who dominate online forums. Second, XY was not this huge success. TV ratings do not mean anything, but Pokemon had a poor year in terms of revenue brought in in 2015 and it took the 20th anniversary and Pokemon GO to recover. The XY movies box office numbers were a disaster, and the reboot/remake movies had to clean up the messes they left. It wasn't some golden time for the franchise just because western fans liked the series. By in large, Kysel is right. Outside of the online Pokemon fandom (which is in it's own bubble), the series was seen as stale and repetitive. No matter what anyone thinks about SM, it was obvious that the classic formula was on it's last legs.
You say who cares what the West thinks and that Pokemon's primary demographic is Japanese children. You say this.. despite it being completely wrong. Firstly, College aged students are Pokemon's primary demographic in Japan. Secondly, Pokemon is declining in Japan. Each video game iteration has dropped from the previous series. sun and moon failed to sell 4m in Japan. XY only sold 4.5m in Japan. black and white sold 5.5m in Japan. You see the decline here? Also, Pokemon is far more popular in USA than it is in Japan. Especially the video games. Every mainline game has sold more in America than Japan. Pokemon let's Go has only sold 1.6 million units in Japan. Whereas in America it sold 3 million in its first month. Only 18% of its sales came from Japan and the only reason why video game sales haven't decline is because the west is becoming more invested in the games while Japan is going the other way.

So keep saying that they don't care about the west, despite the fact that they purposely made the games a Simultaneous release and the fact that the games sell better in the west than in Japan. Honestly, come again and try putting together something less absurd next time.
 
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You say who cares what the West thinks and that Pokemon's primary demographic is Japanese children. You say this.. despite it being completely wrong. Firstly, College aged students are Pokemon's primary demographic in Japan. Secondly, Pokemon is declining in Japan. Each video game iteration has dropped from the previous series. sun and moon failed to sell 4m in Japan. XY only sold 4.5m in Japan. black and white sold 5.5m in Japan. You see the decline here? Also, Pokemon is far more popular in USA than it is in Japan. Especially the video games. Every mainline game has sold more in America than Japan. Pokemon let's Go has only sold 1.6 million units in Japan. Whereas in America it sold 3 million in its first month. Only 18% of its sales came from Japan and the only reason why video game sales haven't decline is because the west is becoming more invested in the games while Japan is going the other way.
The west matters in terms of the games, but it doesn't matter in terms of the anime. The show has been "dead" in the west since mid-Johto. The first couple of seasons were a fixture of pop culture out west, but the fad died out and fans grew up or moved on. The game's are their own separate entity and they don't need a show for them to sell well out west (really, they never needed the show to be successful out west to do so).
 
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This isn't to suggest XY was unsuccessful, but something during those three years prompted a change. Maybe it had been planned all along - maybe XY was the last hoorah for the old tradition - but generally, hugely successful shows prompt more of the same (and a doubling down on the aspects they made it so successful in the first place) and its interesting they opted for something different instead.
I think XY as the last badge quest was planned, honestly. If Ash had won the league it would have felt like a series finale:
*Ash reached his peak of maturity and skill; for the first time he had a team that was fully evolved outside of Pikachu.
*The ending. It didn't end with Ash's new journey, it ended with him going home.
*He actually gets kissed by a girl with a long term crush on him.
Short of actually winning (which I suspect was barred by mandate from up high that was only reversed after the XY backlash was so large) there wasn't much more they could do to make it feel like a finale for the old Ash, especially with the "soft reboot" of his character in SuMo and 2019.
 
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Were they that successful, though? XY's viewership dropped like 60% iirc, and there wasn't even a time slot change then to sort of justify it. And even then, even if you think this is just television dying, its movies did terribly compared to past ones, and cinema is still going strong when you take into consideration that most of the highest grossing films are sort of recent, even when adjusted for inflation. Truth was that every series, despite quality, was doing worse than the last one. The show wasn't pulling in new viewers faster than the older ones were leaving. Pretending everything was fine then is a little bit misguided.
Sorry, but I couldn't help step in whenever people start talking about viewership ratings.

Yes, it might be true that XY/XYZ saw a drop in viewership ratings (XY: Highest at 6.4% vs Lowest at 2.6% ; XYZ: Highest at 4.4% vs Lowest at 2.0%), but this is no way the most severe drop the Pokemon anime has seen.

For pre timeslot change SM, we went from the highest viewership rating of 4.7% to the lowest at 1.9% ; for post timeslot change SM, we went from the highest viewership rating of 3.1% to the lowest (that we know of) at 1.1%. The fact is, both pre timeslot change SM and XY (not including XYZ) saw similar viewership declines of around 60%. In addition, DP saw a viewership decline of roughly 55% (9.3% to 4.1%), AG saw a viewership decline of roughly 63% (11.0% to 4.0%), OS (Johto) saw a viewership decline of roughly 65% (14.8% to 5.3%) and OS (Kanto) saw a viewership decline of roughly 55% (18.6% to 8.3%); as such, we can see that viewership declines of ~60% is common for each Pokemon saga, this also applies to XYZ (decline of ~64%) and post timeslot change SM (decline of ~65%).

Of course, you might have noticed I left out a certain season of Pokemon in the list above. While for BW, we went from the highest viewership rating of 9.4% to the lowest at 2.2%, and that's all within the very first season of BW; what's more, the highest rated episodes of BW are its first two episodes, meaning viewership had only declined as time went on. (For reference, the highest rated episodes for all other seasons of Pokemon are never ever the first episode) While it managed to kind-of pick itself up from BW2 onwards (BW2 saw a similar viewership decline of roughly 60% from 7.0% to 2.7%), the damage was already done.

What hurt the Pokemon anime most was not XY going all "shonen" or SM going all kid-friendly or even the sameyness of OS-DP, but BW jumping the shark and soft rebooting the series.

(We currently do not have any viewership data for SS due to it not having even shown up once in the top 10 ranking, but DVR numbers show that the highest rating is 70.4, while the lowest is 59.1 as of the fifth episode)
 
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I have thought about conveying these thoughts in numerous ways, however, I managed to narrow it down into a couple key thoughts.
  1. OLM are too reactionary these days. They are so concerned with their audience that they will shape the show around this. The problem here is that OLM are ignorant of the fact that Pokemon is not a brand to be enjoyed by children anymore. This message has been echoed over the years, and GameFreak and even TPCI are now acknowledging that Pokemon isn't JUST a children's franchise anymore - it's a franchise to be enjoyed by all ages. Pokemon Go and Pokemon Video Game adverts no longer feature only children, rather people of all ages. However, the anime still pretends like this is a franchise to be enjoyed by only children.
The Pokemon anime has always been primarily aimed at children though. The franchise can be enjoyed by anyone of any age, but that doesn't mean that they can't or shouldn't appeal directly to kids. The anime is designed to attract kids into the franchise. That has always been the main goal.

SinnohBoi said:
The Games stay the same. Why can't the anime? For better or worse, GameFreak has made sure that the games are played in the same way as they did when Red & Blue came out. Yet, the anime is not following in the same manner. The problem here is that Pokemon thrives through it's sameness. Do you think that a Pokemon game where the protagonist would stay in school would have been successful? Of course not. People buy and play Pokemon games to experience it's formulaic composition. Yet, OLM have forgotten that. They have changed the anime so much that they failed to recognize the reason that the anime has lasted all these years in the first place was that it NEVER CHANGED! The original series, Hoenn, Sinnoh were all the same. Best Wishes and XY had varying tones, but the core goal was the same as well.
This kind of confuses me. You want the Pokemon anime to not just be aimed at children, but you also want them to return to the more traditional format from previous series, even though they were clearly aiming at children with those same series as well. It's also pretty strange to say that the anime never changed and especially what the OS, AG and DP were all the same. The anime has always been formulaic, but it never felt that samey to me. It isn't like you could see one episode of any Pokemon series and then say that you've seen them all. OS, AG and DP are all pretty distinct from each other even though they were all about Ash and his friends traveling through regions together. The idea that the anime never changed prior to SM is also pretty ridiculous. Each series has tried out different ideas to varying degrees of success. That's a big reason why I don't really think that the anime is that samey. It's formulaic and repetitive of course, but since they have tried out different ideas and storylines for each series, that does help to make them more interesting and refreshing instead of the same old thing.

There's also a pretty big difference between playing a video game and watching a TV series. While the Pokemon games are also repetitive, that wouldn't necessarily be an issue. Repetitive gameplay can work if it's enjoyable for the players. Being able to train different Pokemon and playing through different mechanics/special features with each game helps to make them more distinct and makes the experience of playing the games more enjoyable. Watching a repetitive anime series lacks any involvement from the audience, so it would be harder to make that enjoyable for everyone by comparison.

SinnohBoi said:
Let older people Enjoy Pokemon too: This cannot be stressed enough. Yes, Pokemon has always been a children's show, but the difference in the past was that it was not treating us like we were 8 years old. Nowdays, it is. Ash is now a reflection of the audience that OLM are desperately trying to grasp. And this will become even more problematic in the future when it might be too late to save the anime
No, I'm pretty sure that the past was still treating its target audience like children too. That doesn't mean that it couldn't tackle more serious topics or be more intense, but the notion that it wasn't treating their audience like children before is pretty ridiculous.

SinnohBoi said:
Like the games, the west needs to buy into the anime for it to survive. This is coupling all the previous points together into a clear argument. OLM needs to make the show adeptable for all ages; i.e., return to the formula that EVERYONE CAN ENJOY. Pokemon XY was considerbly more popular than Sun and Moon and POKEMON 2019 in the west. Considerably more popular. And the reason for this is because of it's tone. It was a children's show, but anyone could enjoy it. Dragon Ball is huge in the west. In fact, it's more popular than ever because it was able to stick to it's formula. It did not change and it did not need too. Pokemon did not need to change as well. XY was hugely successful, yet OLM were so afraid of the Yokai Audience that they went ahead and changed it anyway.
Not everyone enjoyed the old formula though. As much as I don't think that OS-XY were samey, the basic same formula was there and that's what a lot of people saw the anime for as well. XY was and still is a popular series, but that doesn't mean that the anime has to return to being like it in order to survive. Not to mention the popularity in the west means little to nothing when the anime is designed for Japanese children first and foremost. It's also really early to compare the popularity of PM with any of the other series when it hasn't even been two months since it first premiered. Bringing up Dragon Ball as an example of a series that didn't need to change is really ridiculous when the franchise has changed drastically. Not to mention I still firmly believe that the Pokemon anime had always been changing. Aside form BW, it might not have been huge changes until SM, but there were changes to help make the formula refreshing and unique for each respective series.

SinnohBoi said:
Final Point: People in here may have their ideas of what works and does not work in the anime these days, but let us be clear here. Pokemon cannot grow anymore than what it has in japan. With the aging population, and the slight decline of video game sales we know it has reached it's peak. The growth for the brand is coming from the west. and it's coming from all ages. OLM needs to recognize that and give us something that we all can enjoy
Also, bring back team rocket you cowards!
It also can't grow if the anime isn't allowed to change and explore different concepts. Returning back to the same formula may not result in anything huge popularity wise for the anime either.

You say who cares what the West thinks and that Pokemon's primary demographic is Japanese children. You say this.. despite it being completely wrong. Firstly, College aged students are Pokemon's primary demographic in Japan. Secondly, Pokemon is declining in Japan. Each video game iteration has dropped from the previous series. sun and moon failed to sell 4m in Japan. XY only sold 4.5m in Japan. black and white sold 5.5m in Japan. You see the decline here? Also, Pokemon is far more popular in USA than it is in Japan. Especially the video games. Every mainline game has sold more in America than Japan. Pokemon let's Go has only sold 1.6 million units in Japan. Whereas in America it sold 3 million in its first month. Only 18% of its sales came from Japan and the only reason why video game sales haven't decline is because the west is becoming more invested in the games while Japan is going the other way.

So keep saying that they don't care about the west, despite the fact that they purposely made the games a Simultaneous release and the fact that the games sell better in the west than in Japan. Honestly, come again and try putting together something less absurd next time.
It might be a bit much to say that Japan is going the other way, especially when Sword/Shield still sold a lot in Japan within its opening weekend and I think Switch sales increased during that time in Japan as well. Not to mention there are a ton of merchandise made in Japan for Pokemon that aren't easily available. Just because Pokemon games sell so much outside of Japan doesn't necessarily mean that the west is keeping the franchise going more so than Japan is.
 
Uncertainty
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You say who cares what the West thinks and that Pokemon's primary demographic is Japanese children. You say this.. despite it being completely wrong. Firstly, College aged students are Pokemon's primary demographic in Japan. Secondly, Pokemon is declining in Japan. Each video game iteration has dropped from the previous series. sun and moon failed to sell 4m in Japan. XY only sold 4.5m in Japan. black and white sold 5.5m in Japan. You see the decline here? Also, Pokemon is far more popular in USA than it is in Japan. Especially the video games. Every mainline game has sold more in America than Japan. Pokemon let's Go has only sold 1.6 million units in Japan. Whereas in America it sold 3 million in its first month. Only 18% of its sales came from Japan and the only reason why video game sales haven't decline is because the west is becoming more invested in the games while Japan is going the other way.

So keep saying that they don't care about the west, despite the fact that they purposely made the games a Simultaneous release and the fact that the games sell better in the west than in Japan. Honestly, come again and try putting together something less absurd next time.
That just goes to show that the anime isn't needed to promote the games outside Japan; Go is a big factor behind the franchise's current success in the US and Europe. Maybe if merchandise ever has a bigger presence in the west, the anime will need to accommodate it somehow... but kids will still be prioritized and there is zero reason to think that they share your particular taste.

I am not convinced that XY is more popular than SM in the western fandom, but that doesn't really matter.
 
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I'm sorry, but I'll never understood why fans think that they know how to 'fix' the anime with rants like these. To me it seems arrogant to believe that your suggestions will 'save' the anime from its 'downward spiral' - you make it sound as if your advice is something that the production team needs, when in fact they know more about how to run the series than any of us do.

I get the frustration over certain things in this series that have been ongoing problems - and I hate to be one of those 'stop watching the anime if you hate it so much' type of people - but it's getting to the point where I really do feel that older fans who dislike the series at this point should just learn to let go.
 
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I think the main problem with the New Series, is how safe it has been playing it. For a serious with All Regions in it, it's episodes have been fairly simple and dull.
I am not sure what you expected. The poster is fairly representative of what the series has been about so far, and I don't think that simplicity has much to do with how many regions are being featured. At any rate, the first two episodes weren't very typical.
 
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