The better Ash-Loss question

[KrspaceT]

In the long history of Ash's league runs, the hate has come on hard for many who beat him.

Ritchie for the unfairness of how it happened (The entire Team Rocket thing, Charizard, the odd calls, how the aftermath was handled, etc)

Tobias (A second legendary Pokemon!?)

Cameron (This idiot only brought five Pokemon, and he still won?)

And Alain ($#*#@%*$)

This is generally not held with two though: Harrison and Tyson. Now, I have two questions.

What is it they have that the four above don't.

And

Would having Ash lose to people more like them instead of by the above times create less harsh reactions? If Ash lost in the Top 8 of Unova to someone like Harrison or Tyson, would people be as angry about it?

 

[Srebak]

In the long history of Ash's league runs, the hate has come on hard for many who beat him.

Ritchie for the unfairness of how it happened (The entire Team Rocket thing, Charizard, the odd calls, how the aftermath was handled, etc)

Tobias (A second legendary Pokemon!?)

Cameron (This idiot only brought five Pokemon, and he still won?)

And Alain ($#*#@%*$)

This is generally not held with two though: Harrison and Tyson. Now, I have two questions.

What is it they have that the four above don't.

And

Would having Ash lose to people more like them instead of by the above times create less harsh reactions? If Ash lost in the Top 8 of Unova to someone like Harrison or Tyson, would people be as angry about it?

Well, personally, I think that the real reason that both Harrison and Tyson get far less hate is because their Pokémon teams only managed to defeat Ash’s Pokémon teams by the skin of their teeth (by the very last moments of the very last battles between their very last Pokémon, both Pokémon were always made to appear ready to actually keel over at any given moment within the battle, which always left you with a great deal of suspense about not knowing just who was going to be the winner when it was all said, over and done with), whereas with Ritchie; Ash’s Pokémon team was not up to snuff due to TR, and with Tobias and Cameron; they were both able to decimate Ash with the use of overly strong Pokémon who were all conveniently able to overpower his entire team until the battle was basically in the bag for them.

Also, with Alain, I think that the hate mostly stems from exactly two major factors in the show specifically; whereas the initial Johto and the Hoenn Leagues were the only real times that Ash had ever actually battled both Harrison and Tyson, Ash had battled actually against Alain quite a few times before and had always lost to him, which means that a lot of us were expecting Ash to finally break the streak of losses to Alain and actually get the better of him for a change of pace, but it didn’t work out that way in the end. Plus, this was the closest that Ash has ever managed to come to actually winning a league competition and the fact that he didn’t is really unsettling to some of us fans, especially since he might never be allowed to reach this point in the League ever-ever again.

Anyways, that’s all just my own personal opinion in any event at all.

 

[Jaypom]

I also think a lot were mad that Alain lost because he was just such an overpowered character and everyone really wanted to see him lose

 

[EscLucy]

What is it they have that the four above don't.

And

Would having Ash lose to people more like them instead of by the above times create less harsh reactions? If Ash lost in the Top 8 of Unova to someone like Harrison or Tyson, would people be as angry about it?

The reason that they aren't criticised is because they actually had good teams, didn't come out of nowhere and they won fair and square. They didn't have 5 Pokemon or Ash's Pokemon weren't exhausted. People were content with them winning, I remember I was fine with it. In fact, I was happy because it was a good battle. Therefore, by extension, yes it would create less harsh reaction. People wouldn't be angry about it in the Unova League if the characters were rivals with Ash before the League and they had 6 good Pokemon.

I also think a lot were mad that Alain lost because he was just such an overpowered character and everyone really wanted to see him lose

It was building up to it but Ash lost so it was kind of a pain, especially how Ash was that close. Same situation with Tobias really. I was hoping that Tobias would have one strong Darkrai and then like level 5 Pokemon as his rest lol. That would've been funny. Weedle, I choose you!

 

[Hidden Mew]

In the long history of Ash's league runs, the hate has come on hard for many who beat him.

Ritchie for the unfairness of how it happened (The entire Team Rocket thing, Charizard, the odd calls, how the aftermath was handled, etc)

Tobias (A second legendary Pokemon!?)

Cameron (This idiot only brought five Pokemon, and he still won?)

And Alain ($#*#@%*$)

This is generally not held with two though: Harrison and Tyson. Now, I have two questions.

What is it they have that the four above don't.

I think it helped that Harrison and Tyson were presented as just regular trainers. They didn't have any overpowered Pokemon like Darkrai or Mega Charizard X, they weren't incredibly stupid and they wasn't any outside event that affected Ash's Pokemon like running away from Team Rocket. They were just regular trainers and both battles came down to the wire. Ash losing was primarily due to his Pokemon taking a bit more damage, as well as not having the best order/lineup when he faced off against Harrison. I think it also helped in Tyson's case that this was the first time Ash lost to the trainer who would go on to win the League, so that made his defeat feel more justified in a sense. That didn't work as well when he lost to Tobias and Alain for a lot of fans due to how overpowered they were, as well as how there seemed to be buildup for Ash to defeat Alain.

And

Would having Ash lose to people more like them instead of by the above times create less harsh reactions? If Ash lost in the Top 8 of Unova to someone like Harrison or Tyson, would people be as angry about it?

That probably would help. People would most likely still be upset over Ash losing, but I doubt that the reactions would be as intense as they are. While Ash losing to Alain is still relatively recent compared his other defeats, there are plenty of people who still adamantly hate how he lost to Tobias and Cameron. At this point, I just wonder how they'll handle Ash's defeat in the Alola League, whenever they get around to actually setting that up. If they continue the trend that started with Tobias, Ash's defeat will become infamous and/or upset fans for ages.

 

[KrspaceT]

I think it helped that Harrison and Tyson were presented as just regular trainers. They didn't have any overpowered Pokemon like Darkrai or Mega Charizard X, they weren't incredibly stupid and they wasn't any outside event that affected Ash's Pokemon like running away from Team Rocket. They were just regular trainers and both battles came down to the wire. Ash losing was primarily due to his Pokemon taking a bit more damage, as well as not having the best order/lineup when he faced off against Harrison. I think it also helped in Tyson's case that this was the first time Ash lost to the trainer who would go on to win the League, so that made his defeat feel more justified in a sense. That didn't work as well when he lost to Tobias and Alain for a lot of fans due to how overpowered they were, as well as how there seemed to be buildup for Ash to defeat Alain.



That probably would help. People would most likely still be upset over Ash losing, but I doubt that the reactions would be as intense as they are. While Ash losing to Alain is still relatively recent compared his other defeats, there are plenty of people who still adamantly hate how he lost to Tobias and Cameron. At this point, I just wonder how they'll handle Ash's defeat in the Alola League, whenever they get around to actually setting that up. If they continue the trend that started with Tobias, Ash's defeat will become infamous and/or upset fans for ages.

I'm honestly curious if they'll do a Unova style dropping of seating for Ash, or if he'd get to the finals again?

What would be worst: Ash losing in the Top 4 after being in the finals (or worse, the Top 8), or Ash losing in the final round again?

 

[Hidden Mew]

I'm honestly curious if they'll do a Unova style dropping of seating for Ash, or if he'd get to the finals again?

What would be worst: Ash losing in the Top 4 after being in the finals (or worse, the Top 8), or Ash losing in the final round again?

Depending on how the rest of the series goes and how the Alola League is structured, I could see Ash getting to a lower rank instead of getting into the finals again. I don't think he's regressed so much as his team just doesn't have a lot of battle experiences compared to his previous teams, especially when the Island Challenge is treated much more like an afterthought than I initially thought it would have.

As for what would be worse, I think it would really come down to how the lost is handled. I never had a problem with Ash getting to the Top 8 twice in a row in the Johto and Hoenn League because he was still able to show some progression of his skills during the Hoenn League. He didn't rely primarily on his older Pokemon and he lost to the trainer who won the whole League too. Even losing in the finals again could work if they didn't do the same thing they did with Alain and making it seem like they're building up to Ash defeating the trainer in the finals.

Plus, I'm not sure if losing in the final round again would cause the same kind of outburst it did with the Kalos League. There was a lot of hype for the Kalos League not only because Ash got to the finals for the first time, but it did seem like the chances were in Ash's favor. He already lost to Alain twice, Greninja had mastered its new form and for once, the outcome of the League wasn't perfectly clear. I was so sure that the match was going to be interrupted by Team Flare, but I could see why people thought he was going to win. I don't know if people would get that excited over Ash getting to the final round again. If he couldn't win against an opponent he lost to twice beforehand with his special Ash-Greninja, it does make the chances of Ash winning another League sound even less likely. It is kind of sad that fans might not be excited for another League arc like they were with the Kalos League.

 

[EscLucy]

'm honestly curious if they'll do a Unova style dropping of seating for Ash, or if he'd get to the finals again?

What would be worst: Ash losing in the Top 4 after being in the finals (or worse, the Top 8), or Ash losing in the final round again?

I don't think he will get to the finals just because he was in the finals last time (regression etc.) but then again they could surprise us. Also, Alola isn't that focused on gyms and leagues so it probably will be different.

It really depends on the situation as to how he lost - if it is like Cameron, then that would be annoying but losing to a good trainer like Kiawe, for example, would be ok. I think losing in the final round is worse because we know by then that Ash is going to lose because Ash will need to keep region-hopping. Therefore, there would be more suspense if he lost earlier on because we wouldn't know and the battles would probably be more heated.

 

[KrspaceT]

Depending on how the rest of the series goes and how the Alola League is structured, I could see Ash getting to a lower rank instead of getting into the finals again. I don't think he's regressed so much as his team just doesn't have a lot of battle experiences compared to his previous teams, especially when the Island Challenge is treated much more like an afterthought than I initially thought it would have.

As for what would be worse, I think it would really come down to how the lost is handled. I never had a problem with Ash getting to the Top 8 twice in a row in the Johto and Hoenn League because he was still able to show some progression of his skills during the Hoenn League. He didn't rely primarily on his older Pokemon and he lost to the trainer who won the whole League too. Even losing in the finals again could work if they didn't do the same thing they did with Alain and making it seem like they're building up to Ash defeating the trainer in the finals.

Plus, I'm not sure if losing in the final round again would cause the same kind of outburst it did with the Kalos League. There was a lot of hype for the Kalos League not only because Ash got to the finals for the first time, but it did seem like the chances were in Ash's favor. He already lost to Alain twice, Greninja had mastered its new form and for once, the outcome of the League wasn't perfectly clear. I was so sure that the match was going to be interrupted by Team Flare, but I could see why people thought he was going to win. I don't know if people would get that excited over Ash getting to the final round again. If he couldn't win against an opponent he lost to twice beforehand with his special Ash-Greninja, it does make the chances of Ash winning another League sound even less likely. It is kind of sad that fans might not be excited for another League arc like they were with the Kalos League.

I don't think he will get to the finals just because he was in the finals last time (regression etc.) but then again they could surprise us. Also, Alola isn't that focused on gyms and leagues so it probably will be different.

It really depends on the situation as to how he lost - if it is like Cameron, then that would be annoying but losing to a good trainer like Kiawe, for example, would be ok. I think losing in the final round is worse because we know by then that Ash is going to lose because Ash will need to keep region-hopping. Therefore, there would be more suspense if he lost earlier on because we wouldn't know and the battles would probably be more heated.

Ash regressed in ranking once, from Tobias to Cameron 4th to 8th. He's matched his position twice, but I do feel the uproar if Ash is only top 4.

 

[Nicolas721]

While Ash losing to an overpowered character makes sense, Ash losing to a similar trainer to him is more satisfying, because we can see Ash reflected in the other character and understand that Ash lost just because of luck, and that he isn't too far from surpassing this character eventually.

However, there are more factors that contribute to that methodology's sucess. Ritchie failed because of lazy buildup + terrible battle where Ash didn't shown any skill, and Cameron failed because while he felt similar to BW Ash he felt inferior to Ash overall + his battle having traces of overpowered-ness with Hydreigon and Lucario.

Alain and Tobias were many levels above of Ash, so Ash winning would have been the only satisfaying conclusion. Despite the backlash, I'd choose Alain as the better of the two, because of the development he got after the battle.

 

[EscLucy]

Alain and Tobias were many levels above of Ash, so Ash winning would have been the only satisfaying conclusion. Despite the backlash, I'd choose Alain as the better of the two, because of the development he got after the battle.

I think that most people would prefer Alain because he had somewhat of an interesting storyline and he didn't come out of nowhere with 2 legendaries omg. Some of the Pokemon movies and episodes are about how people cannot catch legendaries like catching Entei in M20. However, it must be said that a Greninja losing to a Mega Charizard was a bit eh and I didn't really like Ash losing that far into the league because I knew he was going to lose.

I agree with everything else you've said

 

[SinnohEevee]

Since the SL, every League loss is becoming more controversial than the last one, and that may continue.
Given the lack of battles and how the Island Challenge is treated as an afterthought, I think Ash will end Top 4. That may anger a lot of fans, but this show makes too much money to care about what the fans say. Plus, most of those who watch his last rank regression are or are close to being outside the target audience. I can see Ash losing 20 League Conferences in a row and the show will still make tons of money as the target audience keeps renewing itself over and over.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

With Harrison and Tyson, I think it was a case of the two being on a similar level as Ash, and just barely winning. It wasn't anything like Ash losing because of Team Rocket, legendaries, an incompetent fool, or an incredibly overpowered trainer. Harrison and Tyson were just slightly better than Ash. Ritchie's battle was just unfair on Ash, due to the calls, Charizard, and Team Rocket exhausting his team. Tobias came out of nowhere with Legendary Pokemon. Cameron's stupidity and luck irritated many, and Alain was, while "fair", incredibly overpowered.

Also, back then, I don't think many had the same hope that Ash could win that they had when Ash was competing in the Sinnoh and Kalos League. Both leagues and the story did seem to be setting Ash up for victory in a way, which is why the backlash was so large. Like I said, Tobias' legendaries were a cheap cop out and Alain was an incredibly overpowered trainer that people just wanted to see lose because of how overpowered he was. If you ask me, Alain didn't deserve to win and needed to learn he wasn't invincible like he thought he was.

Its just gonna keep on going this way because the writers can't get it through their thick skulls that Ash winning the league doesn't HAVE to be the end. Have they forgotten about the Champion's League they constantly reminded us of? As long as they're making money and getting newer fans, they don't care about what the fans think.

 

[Hidden Mew]

With Harrison and Tyson, I think it was a case of the two being on a similar level as Ash, and just barely winning. It wasn't anything like Ash losing because of Team Rocket, legendaries, an incompetent fool, or an incredibly overpowered trainer. Harrison and Tyson were just slightly better than Ash. Ritchie's battle was just unfair on Ash, due to the calls, Charizard, and Team Rocket exhausting his team. Tobias came out of nowhere with Legendary Pokemon. Cameron's stupidity and luck irritated many, and Alain was, while "fair", incredibly overpowered.

Also, back then, I don't think many had the same hope that Ash could win that they had when Ash was competing in the Sinnoh and Kalos League. Both leagues and the story did seem to be setting Ash up for victory in a way, which is why the backlash was so large. Like I said, Tobias' legendaries were a cheap cop out and Alain was an incredibly overpowered trainer that people just wanted to see lose because of how overpowered he was. If you ask me, Alain didn't deserve to win and needed to learn he wasn't invincible like he thought he was.

I don't think that DP was setting up for Ash's victory. It did seem more plausible than any of the previous Leagues though. Given how important Ash's rivalry with Paul was and how much focus it had throughout the series, the idea that the final round would come down to Ash vs. Paul made sense. XY had more visible setup for a possible Ash victory, if only because Ash made it to the finals for the first time.

Its just gonna keep on going this way because the writers can't get it through their thick skulls that Ash winning the league doesn't HAVE to be the end. Have they forgotten about the Champion's League they constantly reminded us of? As long as they're making money and getting newer fans, they don't care about what the fans think.

I'm pretty sure that they only brought up the Champion League in DP and BW. I don't think it came up at all in XY and Alain was set to go help Professor Sycamore find more Mega Stones at the end of the series instead of going to face the Elite 4. I don't think that Ash not winning a game related region League means that the writers don't care about what fans think. I'm not sure if kids within the target audience would be that upset over Ash losing Leagues as much as older fans do and they wouldn't really consider what older fans think about the series since we're outside of the target demographic. While they could have Ash win a League without any problem, they probably think it's easier to explain why he starts over again in a new region with a fresh team if he lost the previous League. Besides that, there's usually not enough time for them to do a Champion League even if they wanted to by the time a League ends. They just have to get ready to move on to the next series. The only exceptions were the Unova and Kalos Leagues. I don't think fans would have wanted or expected Ash to win the Unova League, but at least the Team Flare arc and the last few episodes of the series provided some payoff with the Team Flare storyline, as well as closure for the main cast as they went on their separate ways.

 

[EscLucy]

I'm not sure if kids within the target audience would be that upset over Ash losing Leagues as much as older fans do and they wouldn't really consider what older fans think about the series since we're outside of the target demographic.

How young are we talking? I think that a young person would still get upset if a protagonist lost especially since they invested time into watching the anime and seeing Ash grow. I think anyone would feel the pain of Ash not making it to the top of the mountain - it's how we would feel irl e.g. revising for an exam so hard and not getting the grade you want/need.

 

[SinnohEevee]

How young are we talking? I think that a young person would still get upset if a protagonist lost especially since they invested time into watching the anime and seeing Ash grow. I think anyone would feel the pain of Ash not making it to the top of the mountain - it's how we would feel irl e.g. revising for an exam so hard and not getting the grade you want/need.

Don't kids always expect the hero to win?
I think Pokémon thinks kids only care about seeing their beloved monsters on TV.
The target audience may be less bothered than us because they would only see Ash lose twice (maybe trice) and I doubt most of them know Ash has been losing for the nth time. So the executives can keep executing Ash's chances at winning.

 

[Hidden Mew]

How young are we talking? I think that a young person would still get upset if a protagonist lost especially since they invested time into watching the anime and seeing Ash grow. I think anyone would feel the pain of Ash not making it to the top of the mountain - it's how we would feel irl e.g. revising for an exam so hard and not getting the grade you want/need.

I didn't say that kids wouldn't be upset, but just not as upset about Ash losing compared to older fans. Older fans have seen him lose for multiple series, while kids who are just getting into the franchise wouldn't have. They'd probably learn about it if they watch or read about past series, but I don't think it would bother them as much as it does with older fans. Based on how I felt about Ash losing when I was within the target demographic, which would be just within the original series' run, I don't think kids would focus on the defeat that much. I felt bad for Ash losing the Indigo and Johto Leagues and I was annoyed when I accidentally spoiled the end of the Johto League for myself, but I don't think it was that big of a deal for me that he lost. It didn't change that I enjoy the series and the journey getting there. Sure, I was rooting for Ash and I would have been fine with him winning either League, but I don't think seeing him lose after watching his progress bothers kids watching the show that much. I didn't start watching the anime just because I wanted to see Ash win the Indigo League and I'm not sure how many kids get into the anime primarily in the hopes that Ash will win. I know that there are some older fans who keep up with the anime in the slight chance that Ash does win a League, but I don't know if the kids put that much emphasis on Ash winning either.

Don't kids always expect the hero to win?
I think Pokémon thinks kids only care about seeing their beloved monsters on TV.

Usually the heroes in kid shows have to win because something major is on the line. Ash's League matches don't really involve the fate of the world or the lives of innocent people being in the balance, so it's not a necessity for him to win compared to other main characters. Part of the appeal of the anime series is getting to see your favorite Pokemon in animated form and watching battles on TV. I don't think that's the only thing kids care about, but that is a factor at least getting more interested in the show.

The target audience may be less bothered than us because they would only see Ash lose twice (maybe trice) and I doubt most of them know Ash has been losing for the nth time. So the executives can keep executing Ash's chances at winning.

I really don't think it's that common for kids in the target audience to watch two full series, let alone three. I'm pretty sure that the target demographic wouldn't go any higher than twelve too. Unless some people start watching the series when they're really young, they'd could be outside of the target demographic by the time they could possibly watch their second or third series. I was within the target demographic for the original series when it first aired, but I was already in high school by the time AG started, so I was definitely out of the target demographic by that point. Each series now tends to last around three years as opposed to four or five years, so kids might still be within the target demographic for the second series they watch, but a third series would be a bit more unlikely.

I also don't think it would be uncommon knowledge that Ash has lost multiple times even to kids just watching the series for the first time. Kids could have learned about Ash's defeats from older siblings, possibly even their parents and simply just looking it up online. There was quite a bit of fanfare for the one thousandth episode, which included characters from previous series, so it's not like kids aren't aware of any series beyond SM right now. The new audience that comes in every series does make it easier for the writers to have Ash lose and go towards a new journey, but I don't think that means that the higher ups think that kids are too stupid to realize or remember that Ash has lost before.

 

[SinnohEevee]

When I was a kid, I could let Ash's IL loss slide because it was his first. But would I have been that interested if I knew he would never win? Would a kid be interested in Ash after his 20th loss? The more he loses, the more he looks like a joke.

 

[Hidden Mew]

When I was a kid, I could let Ash's IL loss slide because it was his first. But would I have been that interested if I knew he would never win? Would a kid be interested in Ash after his 20th loss? The more he loses, the more he looks like a joke.

I'm still not sure if kids would be that focused on whether or not Ash wins a Pokemon League. Maybe I'm just protecting a a bit here since I haven't cared about Ash winning a League in years, but it is not that big of a deal. The anime has always been more about the journey than the destination, so why bother getting so upset over Ash not winning a League? I still doubt that kids are coming into the show primarily to see Ash win a League. I'm sure that they'd like that, but that's probably not a big reason as to why they start watching the show.

Besides all that, I wouldn't say that Ash looks like a joke the more he loses. As others have brought up in his thread, his battles against Harrison and Tyson came down to the wire, so it's not like he was easily defeated. When he lost to Tobias, he was the only trainer who was able to defeat Darkrai and tied against his Latios. Even though losing to Cameron was bad, I wouldn't say he looked like a joke. Much like his battles against Trip, I think that the writing behind the battles look worse than Ash does in that case. While he did lose to Alain, the fact that he got to the final round for the first time is a huge accomplishment. For the most part, he puts up good battles during his final matches that shows the strength of his teams and his skills as a trainer.

This mentality that winning is the only thing that matters has always bothered me. Just because Ash lost doesn't mean that he looks like a joke or that his entire journey was a waste. There was usually a steady sense of progression in each League, until the Unova League, and I don't like how people disregard that just because he didn't win. He was basically the honorary runner-up in the Sinnoh League and a finalist in the Kalos League. Those are pretty big accomplishments and his reaction to losing to Alain was a nice character moment too. But because he didn't get a fancy trophy declaring him the winner, people dismiss these moments/accomplishments as nothing and see Ash as a joke. I can understand being upset over Ash losing to a degree and I can understand wanting to see him win even after all these years, but it's the notion that nothing besides winning the League matters that bothers me a lot.

 

[Matleo]

I hope in future we get a tech geek , science nerd rival for Ash, that would use strategy, abilities and moves fully and force Ash for the best.