The big bang or intelligent design

[Ganondorf]

Well um I hope you don't mind me bringing hitler back up but if he wasn't born with an expressive hate for the jews then what triggered his hatred?

 

[GrnMarvl14]

Well um I hope you don't mind me bringing hitler back up but if he wasn't born with an expressive hate for the jews then what triggered his hatred?

Any number of things. No one knows anything for sure. There are a myriad of theories, and they're varied.

A list.

 

[Ganondorf]

But if there are a myraid of theories that we can't tell apart from eachother YET, then we have every reason to assume free will and choice as a possibility equal or possibly more evidenced by general experience than chemical disorder and I will find that quote tomorrow *yawns*

 

[TTEchidna]

Hitler hated the Jews because he saw them as "the people who killed Jesus". And not the people as in the plural, but the people as in the ethnic group.

You could also chalk it up to bad experiences he likely had with people who were Jewish. He eventually associated "Jew" with "problem" and... well, he tried to take care of that, sadly.

Hitler's hatred of Jews stemmed from Martin Luther, too. The more he looked into it, the more he found sources that reinforced his views, and the more he thought he was right, because, let's face it, Hitler was not the only anti-Semite EVER. It was far from a new idea to go after Jews as a people.

What triggers your thought that Hitler did it because he was an atheist, Darwinist crazy? It's likely because you were told this (it's wrong, by the way, Hitler was Christian, and I'm not saying this as an attack against Christians at all). What triggered Hitler's thoughts that Jews were unworthy of life? Well... he came to this conclusion with help from others. It's the same reason why all racism exists: Groupthink. Us and Them. He saw himself as part of an Us, and Jews as a Them that should be destroyed.

 

[Barb]

What triggers your thought that Hitler did it because he was an atheist, Darwinist crazy?

Adolf Hitler used Darwin's theory as philosophical justification for the Holocaust. In his book Mein Kampf (1939 edition, pages 239-242), he writes:

"If nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with the stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle with an inferior one; because in such cases all her efforts, throughout hundreds of thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being, may thus be rendered futile.

But such a preservation goes hand in hand with the inexorable law that it is the strongest and best who must triumph and that they have the right to endure. He who would live must fight. He who does not wish to fight in this world, where permanent struggle is the law of life, has not the right to exist."

In Hitler's view, racism and then genocide is the logical outworking of Darwinism.

 

[Ganondorf]

Yes! Thankyou for finding that for us Barb. And hitler used the excuse of "the jews killed Jesus" to try and quell the Christian populace.

Hitler knew murder was wrong so he had to dehumanize the Jews before he could justify his actions.

 

[GrnMarvl14]

But if there are a myraid of theories that we can't tell apart from eachother YET, then we have every reason to assume free will and choice as a possibility equal or possibly more evidenced by general experience than chemical disorder and I will find that quote tomorrow *yawns*

Actually, recent findings suggest that Hitler WAS mentally disturbed and suffered from at least one sexually-transmitted disease. Plus, there's reason to believe he suffered psychological trauma because of his...less-than-stellar...childhood.

Source for the below:

Hitler's health has long been the subject of debate. He has variously been said to have suffered from irritable bowel syndrome, skin lesions, irregular heartbeat, Parkinson's disease,[51] syphilis,[51] and a strongly suggested addiction to methamphetamine. One film exists that shows his left hand trembling, which might suggest Parkinson's.[84] Beyond that, the evidence is sparse.

Source for the below:

Prodromal symptoms include unilateral numbness, paresthesias, upper or lower extremity weakness, headache, vertigo, insomnia, and psychiatric abnormalities such as personality changes.

More rarely, they can have psychosis, depression, or mania.

Again, God forbid I take a valid theory and use it in an argument. How crazy am I? I must be TRULY insane. How dare I argue a point using facts instead of the eternal "good vs evil" argument? How dare I try to find a rational argument for what happened? How dare I try to frame my life around logic and rationality instead of vague notions that can't be proved or disproved and are based on moral arguments?

 

[Ganondorf]

Umm... did you even see the quotation that hitler wrote in his book? If you read anything hitler wrote or the strategys he employed then it's pretty darn obvious he knew exactly what he was doing.

And how dare I try to use observational methods and common sense in my argument, well I think you should shut up and sit down egghead!

Doesn't feel good does it? Doesn't feel right does it? It violates the right of your personal opinion doesn't it?

The Moral law is as real and existant as Mathematics, and it exists wheather we want it to or not. How dare I try to use the reasoning methods of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle that have been employed in the books and teachings of modern day Apologetics and published for the public?

How dare I try any kind of a philosophical argument when your allmighty sources that don't prove a darn thing are posted, How dare I use the logic and reasoning in the humans I'm debating with to try and come to an understanding of truth, indeed HOW DARE I?

Aslo explain how a whole nation followed Hitler with their own free will, pledged their alliegance and went through with the war if they were not convinced that he was in fact Sane, and logically correct?

 

[evkl]

Just because they think he's sane doesn't make him sane.

 

[Zeta]

And certainly theism never ended up causing a war or genocide . . . er, wait . . .

 

[Ganondorf]

Hitler wasn't a Theist, he was an aitheist. What are you talking about, I don't get it sorry.

 

[Zeta]

The Holocaust wasn't the only bad thing to ever happen, EVER. What about a little thing called, I don't know . . . "THE CRUSADES"?

 

[Ganondorf]

Explain, I am not a major historian.

 

[ルカリオ]

The Holocaust wasn't the only bad thing to ever happen, EVER. What about a little thing called, I don't know . . . "THE CRUSADES"?

And, the Inquisitions.

 

[ImJessieTR]

Explain, I am not a major historian.

Wow, history classes have gone to hell...

The Crusades and the Inquisition were used to dehumanize ... uh ... just about everybody who wasn't a Christian European. Hell, they even burned their own group at the stake for witchcraft. "The Crucible" is a nice story to wrap your mind around.

Everyone who has mentioned this is trying to relate that Darwinist justifications for prejudice is just the newest fad: before, it was theological arguments like the curse of (Ham? was it?) to justify slavery and brutality. Before "Darwin" said it was right to go kill people who were different, "God" had been telling people that for millennia.

Also, your dislike of using professors and other educational sources is strange. These people are paid to do studies to discover the truth. Why bother paying people for education at all if we are just going to ignore their findings and believe whatever random thought crosses our mind today? I'm not saying they're perfect, but, I mean really, get a clue.

 

[Barb]

Hitler wasn't an atheist. I'm not sure, but I believe he was raised Catholic. He was okay with religion as long as he controlled it in his Third Reich government.

Yes, the Inquisition and the Crusades were aberrations in humanity's history. So was Stalin's murder of 20 million people. Atheism doesn't exactly make for perfect government either, as history has shown.

"God" really didn't tell everyone to go and kill everyone different. If that's you're argument, then you're badly misinterpreting scripture. And yes, I am perfectly aware that now the debate will get into the Old Testament and the wars of the Jews.

 

[anonymous920314]

Explain, I am not a major historian.

Alexis of Constantinople was threatened by Muslims, so he called on Pope Urban II to help him out. He did this by sending crusades, thousand and thousands of knights and peasents to rid the Holy Land of "unholy" people, (a.k.a. Muslims) and regain Jerusalem.

Well, anyways, there were 9 crusades, 8 of which were unsuccessful (the last 8), but Catholics everywhere practiced in mass slaughter of the Muslims and Jews (they called the Jews "the killers of Christ") and eventually, their own kind who they didn't like. Screw the 10 Commandments and their "Thou shall not kill" line! It eventually was turned into, "Thou shall not kill Christians", and later, "Thou shall not kill Christians who are your friends". The Crusaders practiced in extremely violent acts against their enemies, sticking heads on steaks and having the heads' commrades carry the steak around, burning people, burning children and babies . . at one point there was even cannabalism involved. The amounts of deaths are to massive to count, they took place from 1095 - 1291.

The Crusades was probably just as bad as the Holocaust, maybe even worse in my opinion.

Oh, btw, just a little side fact: The first persecution of Jews was in Strassburg, Germany during the Crusades, which, iirc, is where Hitler got his idea; he wanted to finish the job the Crusades started.

(and please disregard my spelling errors throughout, I'm extremely tired haha)

 

[GrnMarvl14]

Umm... did you even see the quotation that hitler wrote in his book? If you read anything hitler wrote or the strategys he employed then it's pretty darn obvious he knew exactly what he was doing.

Doesn't prove he was sane. I never said he wasn't ultimately responsible for his actions. I merely pointed out that his mind was possibly warped by disease. Again, you're reading WAY too much into what I'm saying.

And how dare I try to use observational methods and common sense in my argument, well I think you should shut up and sit down egghead!

Yes. I should stop because I know...too much?

Doesn't feel good does it? Doesn't feel right does it? It violates the right of your personal opinion doesn't it?

Never said you couldn't have an opinion. I merely wish that you'd stop drawing false conclusions from what I say and then stating those false conclusions as facts as they relate to me.

The Moral law is as real and existant as Mathematics, and it exists wheather we want it to or not. How dare I try to use the reasoning methods of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle that have been employed in the books and teachings of modern day Apologetics and published for the public?

Since when is drawing false conclusions from my statements an accepted method of reasoning?

How dare I try any kind of a philosophical argument when your allmighty sources that don't prove a darn thing are posted, How dare I use the logic and reasoning in the humans I'm debating with to try and come to an understanding of truth, indeed HOW DARE I?

Again...you've COMPLETELY misunderstood what I was saying.

Aslo explain how a whole nation followed Hitler with their own free will, pledged their alliegance and went through with the war if they were not convinced that he was in fact Sane, and logically correct?

Study the war and you'll learn why.

Hitler wasn't a Theist, he was an aitheist. What are you talking about, I don't get it sorry.

Hitler was a Catholic.

Explain, I am not a major historian.

WIKIPEDIA TO THE RESCUE!

I hate that I have to resort to Wikipedia. But it's such a great, quick resource.

Yes, the Inquisition and the Crusades were aberrations in humanity's history. So was Stalin's murder of 20 million people. Atheism doesn't exactly make for perfect government either, as history has shown.

NO religion (or lack of it) can be used to draw ANY conclusion as to how a nation will function, and the atrocities they will, or will not, carry out.

"God" really didn't tell everyone to go and kill everyone different. If that's you're argument, then you're badly misinterpreting scripture. And yes, I am perfectly aware that now the debate will get into the Old Testament and the wars of the Jews.

God is one of the many things people have used to justify their reasoning for whatever atrocity they've felt needed to be carried out. Doesn't automatically make God bad, just like Hitler using Darwinism to justify the extermination of the Jews doesn't automatically make Darwin bad.

Fun fact: What was one of the big reasons used to justify the enslavement the Africans and the slaughter/slavery of the Native Americans? They were Godless savages.

 

[ルカリオ]

Hitler wasn't an atheist. I'm not sure, but I believe he was raised Catholic. He was okay with religion as long as he controlled it in his Third Reich government.

Yes, the Inquisition and the Crusades were aberrations in humanity's history. So was Stalin's murder of 20 million people. Atheism doesn't exactly make for perfect government either, as history has shown.

"God" really didn't tell everyone to go and kill everyone different. If that's you're argument, then you're badly misinterpreting scripture. And yes, I am perfectly aware that now the debate will get into the Old Testament and the wars of the Jews.

I was wondering when Hitler and Stalin would be mentioned in the same post. At least the context is essentially correct.

Hitler was not an atheist, he was a Catholic and studied for the priesthood. He had the Voice in his ear telling him what to do.

Stalin was also ok with religion, so long as it didn't pose a threat to the government. (He was also studying for the priesthood for a while.) The main problem that the Soviet Communists had with religion was that the Russian Orthodox Church and the Tsarist régime were inextricably intertwined. The situation was similar in France after the French Revolution. And as we know, that was a bloodless coup, errr, was it not?

The Russian Orthodox Church flourished in the late Stalin years, though church officials were appointed by the state (qv China regulating reincarnation thread). In this time, the Church became a tool of the State, after centuries of the State being a tool of the Church.

Oh, and to raise your final point, there was this guy called Joshua... Canaanites, sun stood still, walls of Jericho, and all that? Didn't he also have the little whispers in his head?

Response to GrnMarvl13:
Desmond Tutu once remarked that “when the missionaries came to Africa, they had the Bible and we had the land. They said ‘let us close our eyes and pray’. When we opened them, we had the Bible, and they had the land”.

 

[Ganondorf]

You know I'm seeing no point in arguing with you guys because You've already outruled anything I could interject because you believe what you believe to be true and nothing else can be true, so it's impossible to convince you. I give up and will never visit this part of the forum again, because there is no reason.