The big bang or intelligent design

[maddiejoan]

Actually it doesn't because they have demonstrated both free will and intelligence by thinking and choosing to define something as intelligent. Truths are absolute no matter if people believe them or define them for example the world was thought to be flat at one point and no one would believe that it was round but was it actually flat because people defined it as such?


And to my everpresent and loved adversary you've said something untrue. We christians also base our faith on feelings, obseration of modern day miracles and history written down in what I've heard to be claimed the oldest form of history known.

And guess what there were thousands of copies and each was compared to the other to catch any contradictions and misprints and over a thousand said the same exact thing, thousands more said variations of the same thing with added things that got added in over the years but through scientific elimination (mabye mathmatical is more proper) we found the oldest and most consistent text known to man. Look it up.

You're defining 'free-will and intelligence". It means nothing to me.

The Bible is far from the oldest form of written history and it's many translations are glaringly inconsistent.

Even were the Bible to be consistent in it's translations, I'd be hard put to place any 'faith' in what is essentially a story book.

ok. Maddie to define complexity you have to have seen something relatively simple correct?

Mt. Rushmore was it created through natural elements over hundreds of years? How about cave drawings? `

Your point escapes me.

 

[Ganondorf]

You're defining 'free-will and intelligence". It means nothing to me.

The Bible is far from the oldest form of written history and it's many translations are glaringly inconsistent.

Even were the Bible to be consistent in it's translations, I'd be hard put to place any 'faith' in what is essentially a story book.



Your point escapes me.

So would you put more faith in a book that just came off the press by some aspirring young scientist then something that has been around for hundreds of years and has been hard pressed to survive and still has?

As for free will and intelligence it points to us being more then something that just happened, more then nothing which plato said is what rocks dream about. NO-THING.

Do you want to be an evolved pile of chemical mud that just some how has the ability to think, reason, love, choose and most importantly has the ability to say that it did or did not come from an evolved monkey. Something kinda funny if the apes evolved into us then why do we still have apes? If something evolves isn't it usually because the older form died to easy like germs?

 

[evkl]

Ironically, due to the second law of thermodynamics, for every amount of order we inject into the universe, we create more disorder...so if there were a God ordering our bodies and lives in this universe, he would be simultaneously disordering another part of it EVEN MORE.

EDIT:

The Platonic theory of a geocentric universe was written gospel for two thousand years, and it was wrong. Longevity does not imply correctness.

 

[Ganondorf]

Ironically, due to the second law of thermodynamics, for every amount of order we inject into the universe, we create more disorder...so if there were a God ordering our bodies and lives in this universe, he would be simultaneously disordering another part of it EVEN MORE.

That is why God made rules of science and mathimatics and then he steps back for the most part, if you read genesis you get what originally happened and how we choose to do what he told us not to do. He gave us a choice to see if we would obey. God gave us free will so that we can reason, judge, and base our descions on things that have shaped our lives or our gut instinct. God then sent Jesus to die for our sins as an attonment some one had to die that was perfectly sinless, otherwise we would all have to die.

Now that the sacrifice has been made we no longer need to worry about any sins we have or will commit because we can be forgiven with only a word from our mouths or a silent words from our minds. God doesn't make us do anything.

Longetivity doesn't apply? That was a little different I think Plato and his freinds were philosphers not scientists, philosophers say what they think is wise and true while scientists prove it, I am completely for science but many great men including Einstien just couldn't prove anything against creation.

I have a book for you to read if you are interested.

 

[evkl]

You're being silly. God did, in fact, intervene to make an entire population's circumstances once--Exodus! For the first few plagues, Pharaoh's heart hardened, but for the last group, GOD HARDENED PHARAOH'S HEART! He directly intervened on a human being, if you take the Bible literally, to the detriment of every firstborn Egyptian! So you have a cruel God, Ganondorf.

But I don't take it for its gospel. You're spouting things which cannot be proven and, as you assert them, are self-contradictory anyway. That would be like me saying that an alien named Xenu put billions of Thetans in Earthen volcanoes 76 million years ago and blew them up, and we're those Thetans.

And yes, people believe that too, it's just as silly if you take it literally.

Edit: And by further logic, since I am not Christian, will I just "go directly to hell and not pass go" because I don't believe in Jesus? In fact, I believe him to be a false prophet, and not the son of God, because I don't believe God can possibly have a 'son'--or be anything but an indivisible God?

You're imposing your views on others, and it's getting dangerously close to being annoyingly preachy.

 

[maddiejoan]

So would you put more faith in a book that just came off the press by some aspirring young scientist then something that has been around for hundreds of years and has been hard pressed to survive and still has?

Yeah. Silly me. My tendency is to go with the latest most accurate explanation rather than something written by shepherds and nomads thousands of years ago, Go figure.

As for free will and intelligence it points to us being more then something that just happened, more then nothing which plato said is what rocks dream about. NO-THING.

Free will and intelligence are self-defined concepts of humanity's. Ultimately they are meaningless.

Do you want to be an evolved pile of chemical mud that just some how has the ability to think, reason, love, choose and most importantly has the ability to say that it did or did not come from an evolved monkey. Something kinda funny if the apes evolved into us then why do we still have apes? If something evolves isn't it usually because the older form died to easy like germs?

Apes didn't evolve into us. That's far too simplistic an explanation for what occurs.

 

[ルカリオ]

That is why God made rules of science and mathimatics and then he steps back for the most part

Erm, I assume you mean mathematics here? So, would I be correct that you accept the attributes of your God, of being omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipresent? If you accept the omnipotence of God, can God make 1+1=42?

 

[Ganondorf]

You're being silly. God did, in fact, intervene to make an entire population's circumstances once--Exodus! For the first few plagues, Pharaoh's heart hardened, but for the last group, GOD HARDENED PHARAOH'S HEART! He directly intervened on a human being, if you take the Bible literally, to the detriment of every firstborn Egyptian! So you have a cruel God, Ganondorf.

But I don't take it for its gospel. You're spouting things which cannot be proven and, as you assert them, are self-contradictory anyway. That would be like me saying that an alien named Xenu put billions of Thetans in Earthen volcanoes 76 million years ago and blew them up, and we're those Thetans.

And yes, people believe that too, it's just as silly if you take it literally.

Edit: And by further logic, since I am not Christian, will I just "go directly to hell and not pass go" because I don't believe in Jesus? In fact, I believe him to be a false prophet, and not the son of God, because I don't believe God can possibly have a 'son'--or be anything but an indivisible God?

You're imposing your views on others, and it's getting dangerously close to being annoyingly preachy.

Actually I don't believe that you will go to hell and I'm sorry I got annoying I'm just trying to have a good debate, You can't prove evolution either you realise.

I would like you to read a book that adresses alot of things we are talking about but if you don't want to that's fine as well. I got carried away and it was my choice to throw my normal caution to the wind to speak my mind just like it was your choice to be calm instead of cursing and such.

Why are we bringing Exodous into this huh? Oh well I've you there too, the bible is not worded in modern terms for modern people it's written by ancient people in ancient times so it can be misinterpretated or taken differently. Right now I'm on untrod ground and need to do research I don't know everything just like your scientists don't know everything so let's back up and go to something more basic.

An Argument of God in general would suffice, what is your argument that can actually provide evidence to prove intelligent design wrong?

 

[Ganondorf]

Erm, I assume you mean mathematics here? So, would I be correct that you accept the attributes of your God, of being omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipresent? If you accept the omnipotence of God, can God make 1+1=42?

No, God made his rules and he will not break them. I'm probably contridicting the wording in one of my other posts but we'll adress it shortly. God is God and therefore he can not break rules he made them and they are unchangeable. Like the second law, math, science. Laws of change, these are all set things.

 

[maddiejoan]

Actually I don't believe that you will go to hell and I'm sorry I got annoying I'm just trying to have a good debate, You can't prove evolution either you realise.

actually --you can prove evolution exists quite easily.

 

[Ganondorf]

Yeah. Silly me. My tendency is to go with the latest most accurate explanation rather than something written by shepherds and nomads thousands of years ago, Go figure.



Free will and intelligence are self-defined concepts of humanity's. Ultimately they are meaningless.



Apes didn't evolve into us. That's far too simplistic an explanation for what occurs.

But intelligent design is far too complicated right?

 

[Ganondorf]

actually --you can prove evolution exists quite easily.

You can prove Micro evolution not whole species evolving into another. For example look at the fossils we have on earth, dinasaurs and such. I'll adress it in a moment I'm waiting for replys.

 

[Fig]

Scientists today have access to instruments that no one at the time the bible was written could have ever dreamed off. With them, we have unearthed knowledge of facts no one in ancient Israel could have ever conceived of - we have discovered the world of the dinosaurs ; we have discovered the skeletons of creatures much like us that predated mankind.

By watching the stars we have discovered that the flat globe filled with little stars of the Jews was actually an endless void, and the stars where the suns of trillions of different star systems. We have discovered that our earth, far from the center of the galaxy, is only one planet orbiting one star in one arm of one galaxy among many - we have no clue how many. We have discovered that there are other planets, orbiting other suns, far away from earth.

Yes, I would take a book written today, with all of this information known to the author, over a book written several hundred years ago, when it comes to knowing anything about the universe. Besides which, there are many ages-old books around; why should the Bible take precedence over any of the others?

(When it comes to philosophy, and how to live your life, though, a case can be made for the Bible - the Gospels, anyway)

 

[maddiejoan]

You can prove Micro evolution not whole species evolving into another. For example look at the fossils we have on earth, dinasaurs and such. I'll adress it in a moment I'm waiting for replys.

As other ID proponents have before you -- you draw an arbitrary distinction between micro and macro. It's a meaningless distinction.

 

[evkl]

Intelligent design isn't too complicated, it's just unprovable in any scientific sense. Provide empirical evidence that God influenced our design, or we are too complex for "nature to create". And I just smashed your argument of the Bible being a singular, unitary word. I've got you spinning right now. Let me say this clearly, and in all caps to be clear:

IF THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD, THEN YOU HAVE CONTRADICTED YOURSELF IN SAYING THAT GOD WOULD NOT INTERVENE IN FREE WILL--AND, FURTHERMORE, YOUR GOD IS A CRUEL AND UNMERCIFUL GOD.

By the way, evidence to prove intelligent design wrong? Simple: Look at any nebula. Or the Earth's overall surface. Both are incredibly complex. And they weren't created by God.

Or were they? If they were, you're not asserting I.D., you're asserting creationism.

 

[Ganondorf]

Scientists today have access to instruments that no one at the time the bible was written could have ever dreamed off. With them, we have unearthed knowledge of facts no one in ancient Israel could have ever conceived of - we have discovered the world of the dinosaurs ; we have discovered the skeletons of creatures much like us that predated mankind.

By watching the stars we have discovered that the flat globe filled with little stars of the Jews was actually an endless void, and the stars where the suns of trillions of different star systems. We have discovered that our earth, far from the center of the galaxy, is only one planet orbiting one star in one arm of one galaxy among many - we have no clue how many. We have discovered that there are other planets, orbiting other suns, far away from earth.

Yes, I would take a book written today, with all of this information known to the author, over a book written several hundred years ago, when it comes to knowing anything about the universe. Besides which, there are many ages-old books around; why should the Bible take precedence over any of the others?

(When it comes to philosophy, and how to live your life, though, a case can be made for the Bible - the Gospels, anyway)

You're right scientists have more instruments and more acess to knowledge today but one thing in favor against evolution is the fact that if we look at the fossils they appear suddenly and adruptly there wasn't hundreds of minor changes and skeletons that eventually led to the present animals we see today, they just appeared.

Dinosaurs are not contridictory to the bible at all in fact Genesis is by Christians believed not to be the first account of creation, because we were told to "Repopulate the earth" I don't want to get preachy but the bible specifically told adam and eve to Redo- the earth, as in there were things on earth before us.

 

[Ganondorf]

Intelligent design isn't too complicated, it's just unprovable in any scientific sense. Provide empirical evidence that God influenced our design, or we are too complex for "nature to create". And I just smashed your argument of the Bible being a singular, unitary word. I've got you spinning right now. Let me say this clearly, and in all caps to be clear:

IF THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD, THEN YOU HAVE CONTRADICTED YOURSELF IN SAYING THAT GOD WOULD NOT INTERVENE IN FREE WILL--AND, FURTHERMORE, YOUR GOD IS A CRUEL AND UNMERCIFUL GOD.

By the way, evidence to prove intelligent design wrong? Simple: Look at any nebula. Or the Earth's overall surface. Both are incredibly complex. And they weren't created by God.

Or were they? If they were, you're not asserting I.D., you're asserting creationism.

I've misworded what I've said. God does intervene on the earth but he doesn't well how can I say cause disorder. He doesn't all of the sudden just make today a really sunny day because someone prays to him.

Anyways I'm out of time, continue this debate tommorrow?

 

[ルカリオ]

Do you want to be an evolved pile of chemical mud that just some how has the ability to think, reason, love, choose and most importantly has the ability to say that it did or did not come from an evolved monkey...

It's not what I want to be, it's what I am.

Yeah. Silly me. My tendency is to go with the latest most accurate explanation rather than something written by shepherds and nomads thousands of years ago, Go figure.

You forgot about the part of being rigorously enforced upon pain of death if you didn't accept the "sheperds and nomads" explanation.

You can prove Micro evolution not whole species evolving into another. For example look at the fossils we have on earth, dinasaurs and such. I'll adress it in a moment I'm waiting for replys.

It's a matter of time. Evolution in the case of the dinosaurs was over several tens of millions of years. Humanity has been on Earth for about 100-250 thousand years, but of a small fraction of that length of time.

 

[maddiejoan]

You're right scientists have more instruments and more acess to knowledge today but one thing in favor against evolution is the fact that if we look at the fossils they appear suddenly and adruptly there wasn't hundreds of minor changes and skeletons that eventually led to the present animals we see today, they just appeared.

That's not really true ya know.

Dinosaurs are not contridictory to the bible at all in fact Genesis is by Christians believed not to be the first account of creation, because we were told to "Repopulate the earth" I don't want to get preachy but the bible specifically told adam and eve to Redo- the earth, as in there were things on earth before us.

I consider Genesis to be at best very good allegory.

 

[Ganondorf]

It's not what I want to be, it's what I am.



You forgot about the part of being rigorously enforced upon pain of death if you didn't accept the "sheperds and nomads" explanation.



It's a matter of time. Evolution in the case of the dinosaurs was over several tens of millions of years. Humanity has been on Earth for about 100-250 thousand years, but of a small fraction of that length of time.

You obviously have more bible study to do if you think that you instantly go to hell at death.

Anyways if you are saying that the Dinosaurs need more time to evolve then let's look at this little suggestion:

Why haven't the smallest onecelled organisms ceased to exist? If they are some of the oldest living things and they have evolved in ways to suit their environment and everything but the thing is that they are still one celled organisms please exaplain?

Oh and Maddie it is true you can look it up and have icecream on me if I'm lying.