DISCUSSION: The Ethics of Pokémon Battles

[unrepentantAuthor]

Well, yes somewhat. I think that newborn pokémon fighting according to human commands is sufficiently dissimilar from newborn gazelles running as to be unnerving. Mind you, it is in line with the franchise conceit that pokémon are both inherent battlers and inherent partners to pokémon, if we take that as divinely ordained and not just the perspective of some human characters.

 

[Snuggle Tier List]

As for point 4... I'm not so sure. Humans losing consciousness is a big deal, but it's not for pokémon. Only stopping a fight after actual injury is sustained is much more grim imo.

I'd argue if a living being has lost consciousness, then an injury has already been impli-oh crap I'm arguing semantics ABORT ABORT

What was it exactly that got that reaction from you?

I wouldn't say it's anything specific. It's that, in total, you thought about ethics. I realise this is a low bar, but considering how easy it is to bash the games (and any fics taking game canon literally), I find a multi-part "hey, I know ethics are debatable, I've thought it through!" green flag.

I haven't played through yet, but should I get excited for relevant content?

You should get excited for token lip service that doesn't "rock the boat" and potentially raises more questions than it answers. And I think I'm going to get blasted for that, so hear me out.

For anyone reading this that hasn't been following my Battle With Me research, there's this game design concern called a taxonomy. It sorts players into different groups based on "reasons they're playing"; I couldn't find any I personally liked, but they're popular enough I found a good body of legit academic literature discussing taxonomies.

Problem is, and I'm speaking based on educational "dumbing downs" of these taxonomies, developers are encouraged to satisfy everyone's reason to play. And they do this in a rather slap-dash checklist manner. Players like battles? Give them battles! Players like story? Give them a story! And as the previous three pages of this,thread can attest, not everyone plays games for the same reasons. And Sun & Moon, IMO, are victims of this checklist mentality.

Long story short, the core gameplay hasn't substantially changed. It's still single Pokémon battles, turn-based, four moves per Pokémon. It's still rock-paper-scissors, and while you'll notice lots of interesting ideas, they're mostly easily-ignorable flavor text or botched executions. You wanna talk Pokémon slavery, let's talk Poké Pelago. Pokémon Refresh is cool, though (and entirely optional).

history is written by the winners, and humans have somehow won in this situation.

Remember when N's thing was that he could talk to Pokémon? I'm honestly shocked at how little that concept I've seen in fanfic. And it also might be tied to a longfic I'm writing that's twelve chapters deep and growing but I'll never end up.publishing because Battle With Me: XD keeps getting interrupted so I can reply to this thread.

And speaking of Colosseum/XD: in those games, there's a mechanic called "Reverse Mode", where a Pokémon you're trying to de-brainwash essentially breaks down on the battlefield. The contrast between battling for a loving Trainer v. a terrorist organization becomes too much for them, and they become at risk of hurting themselves ala confusion. You can snap them out of it, but you need to waste a move. And the farther along the path towards complete rehabilitation, the more likely a Pokémon randomly enters Reverse Mode. In other words, the better you treat your Pokémon, the more annoying battles become.

Granted, there's rewards for completing rehabilitation, and Reverse Mode doesn't affect Pokémon not undergoing rehabilitation, but kid me hated this mechanic. I'm softer on it now, but a mostly-linear RPG adding random elements to battles is just asking for bad luck progress blocks. It's hard to explain the frustration of losing a mandatory boss battle because your Pokémon starts disobeying commands; I can see why the franchise's been reluctant to remove absolute control from the player. Even if it raises ethics questions.

 

[Nitro Indigo]

In other words, the better you treat your Pokémon, the more annoying battles become.

You might want to re-read that.

Remember when N's thing was that he could talk to Pokémon? I'm honestly shocked at how little that concept I've seen in fanfic. And it also might be tied to a longfic I'm writing that's twelve chapters deep and growing but I'll never end up.publishing because Battle With Me: XD keeps getting interrupted so I can reply to this thread.

I still remember when someone mentioned that they wrote a fanfic where N and Hilda could talk to Pokémon. I guess it's because not many people liked Black and White? (Also, I hated N back in 2011, but I got over it.)

 

[Beth Pavell]

"I can talk to pokémon!" used to be far more common in fanfiction, to the point where it was a cliché - the ability was usually presented as de facto unique, usually kept a secret, and if the reason for that was ever explored it was usually something vague about avoiding abduction and horrifying torture-experiments.

I don't really remember any story that did anything with it, at least anything more than Black and White did already

 

[Poneto]

You wanna talk Pokémon slavery, let's talk Poké Pelago. Pokémon Refresh is cool, though (and entirely optional).

This so much. Poke Pelago make me feel so guilty; you literally make the mons work for food. "That'll help with the old motivation!"

 

[hanecco]

I haven't played SM or USUM, so I have no idea what Poke Pelago is, haha. Working for food reminds me of Oliver Twist, though.
Now here is another essay!

Part of me agrees with kintsugi's theory that humans have won somehow, but another part of me want to say that battling probably isn't as common as the games make it out to be, where even preschoolers will hit you up. It's most likely that only trainers would really push their Pokemon to battle regularly and become stronger, whereas your average Joe might only battle a few times a month for fun.

I feel like a big part of why Pokemon battling comes across as unethical is the fact the the humans are training and commanding them, introducing a master/slave type of relationship. If battling involved more autonomous involvement from the Pokemon themselves, it probably wouldn't come across as humans forcing them into battles. One of my theories to circumvent this has been that the trainer thinks of an overall battle strategy, like which 'mons to field and when, while the Pokemon takes care of smaller tactical decisions such as which attacks to use to damage the opponent. Kind of like a sports coach and their team, rather than an animal trainer.

Unrelated - I don't think this has been bought up in the thread, but I highly doubt anybody who isn't working for a professor will go and catch hundreds upon hundreds of creatures. Even with real animals, people will agree that it's cruel and rather selfish if you do that for fun and not research or conservation purposes, so I don't think that questioning the ethics of catching large numbers of 'mons is going to lead anywhere.

 

[Snuggle Tier List]

You might want to re-read that.

I'm having a brain meltdown. How did I screw up?

"I can talk to pokémon!" used to be far more common in fanfiction, to the point where it was a cliché - the ability was usually presented as de facto unique, usually kept a secret, and if the reason for that was ever explored it was usually something vague about avoiding abduction and horrifying torture-experiments.

oh thank Arceus I'm in the clear I mean, I figured as much. It's a tempting trait if you identify with your protagonist and want to vicariously possess,special powers. Shame there's no deconstructive take on it; if the Pokémon world status quo is somehow enforced via Pokémon's inability to talk, giving a tiny minority of the population the ability to speak with Pokémon would be...interesting.

"Hey, uh, guys, we built our entire society on unethical concepts we either aren't aware of or aren't willing to question. So I feel I have a moral duty to-"
gun cocks
"...to shut up and fall in line."
"Atta boy!"

(This also raises the question of what to do about all them human psychics. I wonder if your average psychic can read a Pokémon's mind? What would they do with that knowledge? If they're battling Pokémon, then they might have some answers...)

I haven't played SM or USUM, so I have no idea what Poke Pelago is, haha.

Poké Pelago is SM's answer to "what happens when you deposit Pokémon in the PC?" The answer: they get transferred to a wonderful island set up specifically for their enjoyment! They have so many productive activities to be assigned to choose from, letting them combine play with unpaid work! All on islands in the middle of the ocean! It's like a happy Alcatraz communal society!

DISCLAIMER: All production will be monitored and managed by the trainer. Rations will be handed out at their discretion.

Part of me agrees with kintsugi's theory that humans have won somehow, but another part of me want to say that battling probably isn't as common as the games make it out to be, where even preschoolers will hit you up. It's most likely that only trainers would really push their Pokemon to battle regularly and become stronger, whereas your average Joe might only battle a few times a month for fun.

Between the spectator sport and military-industrial incentives, I imagine Pokémon battling to be decently popular. While preschoolers wouldn't want to hit you up (hopefully), I bet late primary school/early secondary school would battle as often as they could. Junior leagues, "Training 101" courses, etc. Not everyone would be all that interested, but I could see schools having "battle yards" available during recess (with adult supervision, of course).

 

[Ereshkigal]

Something else I was thinking about recently is the idea that pokémon can be hatched and raised by human guardians. In the games, newborn pokémon are ready to fight at once. That's a little disturbing, unless you make a real effort to explain this away as abstraction. Still, the idea of a pokémon raised by humans to fight is very much more disturbing than the idea of a wild pokémon consenting to accompany a trainer on their journey.

Given everything we know about Pokemon, there's definitely some non-real-world biology involved. They probably have an entirely different biological basis for all life on their planet compared to us. That would also explain the Joys.

"I can talk to pokémon!" used to be far more common in fanfiction, to the point where it was a cliché - the ability was usually presented as de facto unique, usually kept a secret, and if the reason for that was ever explored it was usually something vague about avoiding abduction and horrifying torture-experiments.

I don't really remember any story that did anything with it, at least anything more than Black and White did already

It's a standard feature of my story, as part of telepathy. The issue of language barriers also comes up; in general, trying to talk to a creature that doesn't think in human speech in any capacity doesn't get much success. Thus, why the majority of the Pokemon who they can have conversations with tend to be psychic or ghost types with a close relationship to humans.

It's actually intentional, in that it was my answer to the question of "why can't psychics simply talk to pokemon" by simply relying on the Babel Solution: They can, but they can't understand each other. It's a trick I find to be useful if you want very powerful psychics in the story, but also don't want them overshadowing nonpsychics; a psychic who can't understand a magnemite's thoughts will have no advantage over a nonpsychic who has trained with the magnemite for years and can read its every motion to determine what it is thinking. It also is a great way of avoiding psychics from becoming instant experts in pokemon, no matter how powerful they are.

Part of me agrees with kintsugi's theory that humans have won somehow, but another part of me want to say that battling probably isn't as common as the games make it out to be, where even preschoolers will hit you up. It's most likely that only trainers would really push their Pokemon to battle regularly and become stronger, whereas your average Joe might only battle a few times a month for fun.

Well, it's not that common even in the games; most people you encounter outside of the road to the Elite Four don't battle you. And if they have pokemon with them, which happens much more frequently in recent games, they will simply say something about their pokemon that sounds like they are talking about a pet.

Unrelated - I don't think this has been bought up in the thread, but I highly doubt anybody who isn't working for a professor will go and catch hundreds upon hundreds of creatures. Even with real animals, people will agree that it's cruel and rather selfish if you do that for fun and not research or conservation purposes, so I don't think that questioning the ethics of catching large numbers of 'mons is going to lead anywhere.

On this, I agree. I don't think the games are giving us a realistic view into their world, but a view diluted through gaming convenience. We know, for example, that wars happen in their world, yet never visit a military base.

I mean, I figured as much. It's a tempting trait if you identify with your protagonist and want to vicariously possess,special powers. Shame there's no deconstructive take on it; if the Pokémon world status quo is somehow enforced via Pokémon's inability to talk, giving a tiny minority of the population the ability to speak with Pokémon would be...interesting.

I have a pokemon as an instructor to human trainers. And she does not treat them with kid gloves or pull her verbal punches. It's a very subtle hint toward the efforts made to have trainers see their pokemon not as tools or simple animals, but as living beings with wills of their own. In-setting, one of the reforms N advocated for.

The idea was spawned mostly because I found the idea of a Gardevoire playing Drill Sergeant Nasty amusing, and then tried to figure out realistic reasons why this would be possible. And, it actually spawned a question in my mind: Why don't we see more of these villainous teams having lasting, world-changing impacts within fanfics? Aqua and Magma combined likely ended the problem of climate change for their world by accidentally replacing it with an even worse climate disaster, for example.

(This also raises the question of what to do about all them human psychics. I wonder if your average psychic can read a Pokémon's mind? What would they do with that knowledge? If they're battling Pokémon, then they might have some answers...)

As I said up above, I have them as capable of talking with pokemon through telepathy. The problem is the language barrier; a ralts might think in whatever the local language is, but a magnemite will probably think in binary. So outside of a limited selection of psychic and ghost types, psychic humans have no advantage over nonpsychics as far as knowing what pokemon want.

It's an interesting approach, in that it resolves the question without overpowering the psychics. Which, really, is a consideration that needs to be made before you even sit down and write if you are including them.

Between the spectator sport and military-industrial incentives, I imagine Pokémon battling to be decently popular. While preschoolers wouldn't want to hit you up (hopefully), I bet late primary school/early secondary school would battle as often as they could. Junior leagues, "Training 101" courses, etc. Not everyone would be all that interested, but I could see schools having "battle yards" available during recess (with adult supervision, of course).

I imagine it would be a sport celebrated on the international level. And not just battle yards for schools, but even specialized schools who focus on nothing but training to become a pokemon trainer, kinda like some real world military academies.

 

[Nitro Indigo]

The idea was spawned mostly because I found the idea of a Gardevoire playing Drill Sergeant Nasty amusing

Please can you give me a link to this fanfic?

In the fanfic I'm currently writing, Pokémon act similar to the ones in Mystery Dungeon, but they don't have the same values as humans. For example, one of my earliest ideas for it is the human-turned-Beautifly protagonist meeting a natural-born Beautifly who sees her as a rival and tries to stab her. Don't worry, she gets rescued.

 

[unrepentantAuthor]

your average Joe might only battle a few times a month for fun.

I always had the impression that most of the "Profession X John Doe wants to battle" types probably don't battle each other all that often and agree to battle the player because the player is an Actual Trainer. After all, most of these these NPCs aren't Ace Trainers and aren't on pokémon journeys. They only have small, weak teams. They battle occasionally for fun according to dialogue and implication. You have a team of six absolute beasts of pokémon and do literally nothing besides training for the most part. There's a meaningful distinction.

I highly doubt anybody who isn't working for a professor will go and catch hundreds upon hundreds of creatures.

Hell, most NPCs only have one or two mon. Even Ace Trainers only uncommonly have as many as five. Breeders are one of the few NPC classes with full teams.

I'm having a brain meltdown. How did I screw up?

You didn't.

They probably have an entirely different biological basis for all life on their planet compared to us. That would also explain the Joys.

I don't think Joys need explaining. Anime canon has it that they're a single large family, and that's not especially wacky for an animated Japanese tv series. I think a more reasonable realistic explanation for the Joys than "they're secretly pokémon-human hybrids" is "they have a strict dress code because they're representing a brand."

they will simply say something about their pokemon that sounds like they are talking about a pet.

It's a shame we don't see more of it, but even in the games we get to see a fair amount of people whose primary interaction with pokémon is not in the context of trainer battles. In the anime, we rarely go an episode without seeing someone whose deal is pokémon assisted rescues, or pokémon assisted entertainment, or whatever.

I don't think the games are giving us a realistic view into their world, but a view diluted through gaming convenience. We know, for example, that wars happen in their world, yet never visit a military base.

Well, even if there were military bases to visit, it would be absurd for the player character to do so, video game or not. Still, the point is fair. The pokémon games aren't open world and don't represent an entire setting, only the relevant slice to our gameplay.

Why don't we see more of these villainous teams having lasting, world-changing impacts within fanfics? Aqua and Magma combined likely ended the problem of climate change for their world by accidentally replacing it with an even worse climate disaster, for example.

Well, most of them don't really achieve anything. Rocket is just some regional organised crime, Aqua and Magma change the weather over about half of an island resembling Kyushu, Galactic achieve fuck-all, Flare achieve fuck-all, and I don't know about Gen VII. Plasma activity should raise the local public consciousness about good treatment of pokémon, but they're not an international force.

Aqua and Magma don't exactly fuck with the world's climate. Going by the games, their legendary summoning event doesn't even affect the weather of the western coast of the island they're on. It's ominous, and it's suggested that the effect will spread, but the player stops them before it has any real effect. Besides, that wouldn't affect climate change, if climate change does exist in the utopian setting of pokémon. A bout of blazing sun or torrential rain won't alter the parts per million in the air of different greenhouse gases.

 

[Beth Pavell]

We may have to start a new thread somewhere with the topic drift.

Spoiler: Spoilered for topic drift

I don't think Joys need explaining. Anime canon has it that they're a single large family, and that's not especially wacky for an animated Japanese tv series. I think a more reasonable realistic explanation for the Joys than "they're secretly pokémon-human hybrids" is "they have a strict dress code because they're representing a brand."

Since they're major characters in The Long Walk, I've done a combination of both: a strong family resemblance, and most people not bothering to look closely enough past the 'branding' to see the differences. It is typical of the fandom to turn a joke, which even the anime threw away after a while, into something so serious in fanon.

I don't think it helps that for most of the series, battles are something you have to actively avoid: that hobbyist or naturalist or engineer insists on battling you whether you want to or not.

 

[hanecco]

If we do make a new ethics thread, I think it should be a general megathread rather than something specialised. It's very difficult to stick to the ethics of one thing in the Pokemon world without dragging in other aspects of it.

Between the spectator sport and military-industrial incentives, I imagine Pokémon battling to be decently popular. While preschoolers wouldn't want to hit you up (hopefully), I bet late primary school/early secondary school would battle as often as they could. Junior leagues, "Training 101" courses, etc. Not everyone would be all that interested, but I could see schools having "battle yards" available during recess (with adult supervision, of course).

Sure, battling is popular, but I still don't think that the majority of people would dedicate their time to it in the way that trainers like Red or Hilda would and raise a super-tough team of six. I agree that Pokemon battling seems like a fairly popular sport, similar to football in our world where people play it casually and then go watch professional teams - Galar really solidifies that analogy with its sporty gyms, huh. ^_^

It's a standard feature of my story, as part of telepathy. The issue of language barriers also comes up; in general, trying to talk to a creature that doesn't think in human speech in any capacity doesn't get much success. Thus, why the majority of the Pokemon who they can have conversations with tend to be psychic or ghost types with a close relationship to humans.

Yes! Languages! My personal theory is that each species has their own language, which often has sounds that humans - and other species - can't reproduce due to differences in biology. This doesn't prevent them from learning to understand each other's speech, but it's very difficult to speak the languages properly and hold a conversation for creatures of different species. Individual Pokemon/human pairs might get around this by creating pidgins, using sign language, written mediums, or something like telepathy, but it takes a long time for the two to overcome such a significant language barrier. I've toyed around with the existence of human-Pokemon translators to aid beginner Pokemon owners existing inside Pokemon centers for quite a while.

One thing I want to point out for those who allow easy communication between Pokemon and humans is that BW suggests that communication is actually pretty hard since N's ability to speak to Pokemon is shown as unheard of. Obviously there is nothing wrong with changing canon and having your own interpretation, but BW's story falls apart if speaking to Pokemon is easy.

I always had the impression that most of the "Profession X John Doe wants to battle" types probably don't battle each other all that often and agree to battle the player because the player is an Actual Trainer. After all, most of these these NPCs aren't Ace Trainers and aren't on pokémon journeys. They only have small, weak teams. They battle occasionally for fun according to dialogue and implication. You have a team of six absolute beasts of pokémon and do literally nothing besides training for the most part. There's a meaningful distinction.

Yup.