The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

[Dakhem Uaid]

Well, that does raise the question: why is Dark SE against Ghost?

 

[YamiiDenryuu]

Well, that does raise the question: why is Dark SE against Ghost?

Honestly, I wouldn't expect that to mean anything, any more than fire, electric and water resisting steel, flying beating fighting, etc do. Some relations just exist for the sake of balance- or if you don't believe the chart is balanced at all, for the sake of having more relations on the chart.

 

[Akromatic]

Well, that does raise the question: why is Dark SE against Ghost?

Honestly, I wouldn't expect that to mean anything, any more than fire, electric and water resisting steel, flying beating fighting, etc do. Some relations just exist for the sake of balance- or if you don't believe the chart is balanced at all, for the sake of having more relations on the chart.

Dude. Try punching a bird in midair. It's hard.

 

[Zweilous]

Well, that does raise the question: why is Dark SE against Ghost?

Honestly, I wouldn't expect that to mean anything, any more than fire, electric and water resisting steel, flying beating fighting, etc do. Some relations just exist for the sake of balance- or if you don't believe the chart is balanced at all, for the sake of having more relations on the chart.

Actually, fire, water and electric resisting steel makes a lot of sense. Fire is used to mold and melt steel, water rusts it and steel is highly conductive to electricity.

 

[Dakhem Uaid]

Well, that does raise the question: why is Dark SE against Ghost?

Honestly, I wouldn't expect that to mean anything, any more than fire, electric and water resisting steel, flying beating fighting, etc do. Some relations just exist for the sake of balance- or if you don't believe the chart is balanced at all, for the sake of having more relations on the chart.

This little theory would render a good deal of the discussion here completely pointless.

 

[YamiiDenryuu]

Well, that does raise the question: why is Dark SE against Ghost?

Honestly, I wouldn't expect that to mean anything, any more than fire, electric and water resisting steel, flying beating fighting, etc do. Some relations just exist for the sake of balance- or if you don't believe the chart is balanced at all, for the sake of having more relations on the chart.

Actually, fire, water and electric resisting steel makes a lot of sense. Fire is used to mold and melt steel, water rusts it and steel is highly conductive to electricity.

Those would be more indicative of them being super-effective on steel, rather than resiting it.

 

[LimitCrown]

Well, that does raise the question: why is Dark SE against Ghost?

Honestly, I wouldn't expect that to mean anything, any more than fire, electric and water resisting steel, flying beating fighting, etc do. Some relations just exist for the sake of balance- or if you don't believe the chart is balanced at all, for the sake of having more relations on the chart.

Actually, fire, water and electric resisting steel makes a lot of sense. Fire is used to mold and melt steel, water rusts it and steel is highly conductive to electricity.

Those would be more indicative of them being super-effective on steel, rather than resiting it.

Well, fire does melt steel, so using Steel-type moves on Fire types won't be as effective as usual. Using a Steel-type move on Electric-types won't really change that much because Steel conducts electricity, taking away the effectiveness of the move. For Water-types, I need something.

 

[Dakhem Uaid]

Can a sword cut water?..

 

[LimitCrown]

I know that bullets can't penetrate water more than a certain distance because of water's physical properties.

 

[Akromatic]

Throw a spoon into a lake.

Water-1
Steel- 0

 

[Aves]

I guess that you haven't noticed that i didn't say ONLY in that statement either. You're intentionally distorting my statement. Since I said that Dark encompasses cheating, dirty tricks, and maliciousness, then that means that it mainly covers these things, but it doesn't contradict my statement even if it included something else. There are only two moves that are explicitly about literal darkness and function using it, but you can say that this was a coincidence due to the the low number of moves that actually fit that in comparison to each other.

But saying that dark is mainly about those things is completely irrelevant with respect to what I was talking about. So if you want to say that was your point, that's fine, it just means you haven't said anything about my argument at all.

And the idea that references to darkness in dark are merely coincidental is ludicrous.

How would Light, physically or figuratively, have a relationship with Poison or Ghost?

Light, figuratively, is often shown to represent concepts like purity and life. Hence those relationships.

You still need Light to react with Dark; That should be obvious, so I don't know why discussion of that is unnecessary.
If you are comparing what would be the form and function of a Light type to Dark types, how can you say that it doesn't require an interaction with Dark?

I'm not saying that an interaction isn't required. That's not the point at all. The best case scenario would be for light to interact with the dark type. That's entirely separate from the definition or identity of the light concept: it's meaning is not purely relational to the dark type. Just like the fire type's meaning is not purely relational to the water type, or so on, even though part of fire's meaning does include that relation.

Having only one or two examples is not enough. They're not statistically significant enough to matter, it still doesn't contradict my statement, and it doesn't prove that there is mainly a figurative/literal relation within the Dark type. You also said that a type doesn't need a main thing. Well, how do you explain Fire/Water/Psychic/Ground/Steel/etc? All of the types have dealt with mainly a specific concept, but apparently you say that they don't need one.

I think there are more examples than two.

 

[LimitCrown]

I guess that you haven't noticed that i didn't say ONLY in that statement either. You're intentionally distorting my statement. Since I said that Dark encompasses cheating, dirty tricks, and maliciousness, then that means that it mainly covers these things, but it doesn't contradict my statement even if it included something else. There are only two moves that are explicitly about literal darkness and function using it, but you can say that this was a coincidence due to the the low number of moves that actually fit that in comparison to each other.

But saying that dark is mainly about those things is completely irrelevant with respect to what I was talking about. So if you want to say that was your point, that's fine, it just means you haven't said anything about my argument at all.

And the idea that references to darkness in dark are merely coincidental is ludicrous.

Hypocrite. You say that the references to light in Grass, Normal, Psychic, and possibly Fire are coincidental while these perceived references to literal darkness in Ghost and Dark aren't coincidental. It does matter that I said mainly, because you still believe that dark must reference the physical aspect by using only two examples. I could say that Psychic and Fighting represent two aspect of your Light type: honor, integrity, and fairness, and training the mind to be unwavering. You would still dismiss those things.

How would Light, physically or figuratively, have a relationship with Poison or Ghost?

Light, figuratively, is often shown to represent concepts like purity and life. Hence those relationships.

Still, you aren't explaining why you chose those two types, especially Poison, and how specifically those relationships would work.

You still need Light to react with Dark; That should be obvious, so I don't know why discussion of that is unnecessary.
If you are comparing what would be the form and function of a Light type to Dark types, how can you say that it doesn't require an interaction with Dark?

I'm not saying that an interaction isn't required. That's not the point at all. The best case scenario would be for light to interact with the dark type. That's entirely separate from the definition or identity of the light concept: it's meaning is not purely relational to the dark type. Just like the fire type's meaning is not purely relational to the water type, or so on, even though part of fire's meaning does include that relation.

There is an obvious relationship between fire and water, fire and grass, fire and ice, electric and ground, etc. So, how would you identify light specifically, since you are generalizing the type so that it fits your statement like what you have done with the Dark type?

Having only one or two examples is not enough. They're not statistically significant enough to matter, it still doesn't contradict my statement, and it doesn't prove that there is mainly a figurative/literal relation within the Dark type. You also said that a type doesn't need a main thing. Well, how do you explain Fire/Water/Psychic/Ground/Steel/etc? All of the types have dealt with mainly a specific concept, but apparently you say that they don't need one.

I think there are more examples than two.

There are only two, or at most two. And all of the types have dealt with a specific concept.

 

[FaerieStar]

Well, that does raise the question: why is Dark SE against Ghost?

Because... devils torture souls? xD

Honestly, I wouldn't expect that to mean anything, any more than fire, electric and water resisting steel, flying beating fighting, etc do. Some relations just exist for the sake of balance- or if you don't believe the chart is balanced at all, for the sake of having more relations on the chart.

Martial artists are prepared to defend themselves against attacks made from any angle... except from above.
Steel is a good conductor for both heat and electricity, so they shouldn't be touching heat or electricity sources.
Swords and hammers are difficult to use underwater.

 

[Aves]

Hypocrite. You say that the references to light in Grass, Normal, Psychic, and possibly Fire are coincidental while these perceived references to literal darkness in Ghost and Dark aren't coincidental. It does matter that I said mainly, because you still believe that dark must reference the physical aspect by using only two examples. I could say that Psychic and Fighting represent two aspect of your Light type: honor, integrity, and fairness, and training the mind to be unwavering. You would still dismiss those things.

It's fairly easy to establish why references to literal light in grass, psychic and normal have other explanations for those types having those kinds of attacks other than the explanation that there is an association there. That is, grass using solar beam doesn't indicate anything about a relationship between grass and light other than photosynthesis. Psychic and normal having references to light doesn't really communicate anything about an association. Psychic manipulating light, or anything else, has its basis in mental powers. Normal does a lot of miscellaneous things. But there is no reason to place references to darkness in the dark type other than the fact that an association is intended. Since the occurrence of these things is not the same, the analogy doesn't hold.

Still, you aren't explaining why you chose those two types, especially Poison, and how specifically those relationships would work.

So? I don't find this to be a particularly important line of discussion.

There is an obvious relationship between fire and water, fire and grass, fire and ice, electric and ground, etc. So, how would you identify light specifically, since you are generalizing the type so that it fits your statement like what you have done with the Dark type?

Huh? How does it matter how obvious a relationship is?

This seems to be really difficult for you, so I'll try to break it down. Fire is a concept you can consider in abstraction. You can have an idea of a fire type without having an idea of a water type, or grass type, etc. Hypothetically, you could have a fire type exist without those other types existing. Relationships between these existing types only occurs after the consideration of them together, not independently by themselves. The same is true for light with respect to the dark type. Just because the dark type, as you say, is mainly about the "sneaky" quality does not mean anything about the light type. The meaning of the light type as a fantasy archetype can exist and make sense in pokémon even if the dark type didn't exist, much less if it existed in some particular way that you think has some significance of what the light type could or must be.

There are only two, or at most two. And all of the types have dealt with a specific concept.

Well, I deny both of those claims. So it seems we're at an impasse.

 

[LimitCrown]

I guess that you forgot about Sunny Day, then.

How are those types abstractions? Fire is fire. Grass is grass? Electric is electricity. Fire burns Grass, melts Steel, and is squelched by Water. Since you aren't explaining the reactions between "Light" and Dark, Poison, and Ghost, why should I trust your statement if you aren't justifying your opinions? You repeat that light could stand alone as a concept without describing how it would react to the other types. They should react to each other in obvious ways depending on the description. You also said that Dark types (directly)references literal darkness, but you now say that placing those references were meaningless.

Light as a type in the Pokémon universe is meaningless compared to Dark types. You say that Light represents purity and life, which seems like it would be an opposite to Dark. The problem is that while Dark types are ostracized, what are Light-types supposed to be? How will they be treated?

Since you denied two of my points without explaining why or giving examples, your denial isn't justified. If Dark was renamed Evil, you would've understood.

 

[YamiiDenryuu]

Martial artists are prepared to defend themselves against attacks made from any angle... except from above.
Steel is a good conductor for both heat and electricity, so they shouldn't be touching heat or electricity sources.
Swords and hammers are difficult to use underwater.

Some of those, especially the last one, are really stretching it.

 

[FaerieStar]

Martial artists are prepared to defend themselves against attacks made from any angle... except from above.
Steel is a good conductor for both heat and electricity, so they shouldn't be touching heat or electricity sources.
Swords and hammers are difficult to use underwater.

Some of those, especially the last one, are really stretching it.

They are not, in my opinion.

 

[Aves]

I guess that you forgot about Sunny Day, then.

What about it? The relevant aspect there is the heat, not the luminosity.

How are those types abstractions? Fire is fire. Grass is grass? Electric is electricity. Fire burns Grass, melts Steel, and is squelched by Water.

So? What's your point? Those are all relational aspects of fire. Fire can be understood in a non-relational manner as being a general (that is, not specific) abstraction which includes phenomena like combustion, heat, and magma. Psychic is a general concept for mental powers which includes specific instantiations like telepathy, telekinesis, etc. Normal is extremely general and covers quite a lot of miscellaneous concepts in addition to its neutral concept. Dark is a general concept for badness, the way that badness is conveyed uses darkness as a metaphor. Light would be a general concept for holiness; it would express itself by things such as radiant and celestial motifs.

Since you aren't explaining the reactions between "Light" and Dark, Poison, and Ghost, why should I trust your statement if you aren't justifying your opinions? You repeat that light could stand alone as a concept without describing how it would react to the other types.

There is more than one possible array of relationships that light could have. What is strong against what, and what resists what, and so on, would be more so dictated by the needs of the type chart balance since conceptually the relationships are somewhat interchangeable. So I am not making a specific claim about what sorts of relationships should be here. That would be a different conversation, whereas currently I am only concerned with what the light archetype, as a concept, provides by being its own type.

They should react to each other in obvious ways depending on the description.

Sure. But that has nothing to do with anything I've said.

You also said that Dark types (directly)references literal darkness, but you now say that placing those references were meaningless.

Obviously I don't think they're meaningless. Rather that seems to be your claim; dark just happens to have a minority of blatant references in its type to literal darkness. According to you, they are there for no reason, and aren't meant to be illustrative of the dark type concept at all. I disagree.

Light as a type in the Pokémon universe is meaningless compared to Dark types. You say that Light represents purity and life, which seems like it would be an opposite to Dark. The problem is that while Dark types are ostracized, what are Light-types supposed to be? How will they be treated?

Sure, light can be considered as an opposite to dark. This, however, is only a relational consideration of light, as related to dark. In other words, it is part of light's external meaning, including dark as part of a system. Light's internal meaning, on the other hand, is abstracted from this relational system.

How is that a problem exactly? I imagine the treatment of the light type will be similar to other games. I don't think there will be sharp moral implications for the type, and its religious themes will be more subtle.

Since you denied two of my points without explaining why or giving examples, your denial isn't justified. If Dark was renamed Evil, you would've understood.

It doesn't matter what we call the dark type itself. Even if the English name were "evil type," it would still be clear that this evil type makes use of darkness motifs. Your criteria for the presence of these motifs, on the other hand, seem to be very limited and misses a lot.

According to my criteria:
Assurance: Uses a shadowy motif
Beat Up: Uses a shadowy motif
Bite: Has used a shadowy motif
Crunch: Has used a shadowy motif
Dark Pulse: Here, "evil thoughts" are depicted as being similar to or manifesting themselves as darkness
Dark Void: This is not even ambiguously about darkness
Embargo: Uses a shadowy motif
Faint Attack: Uses a shadowy motif
Memento: Uses a shadowy motif
Night Daze: Clear and blatant reference to darkness.
Night Slash: Use of the word "night" here conveys a double meaning (being sneaky, but also a connection to night, which is dark). Also uses a shadowy motif.
Payback: Uses a shadowy motif.
Punishment: Uses a shadowy motif
Pursuit: Uses a shadowy motif
Sucker Punch: Uses a shadowy motif
Thief: Uses a shadowy motif

Umbreon: Associated with the time of night
Mightyena line: Nocturnal
Darkrai: Associated with night. Physically resembles shadows.
Zoroark line: Use of illusion has a double association with trickery and shadows
Honchkrow line: Nocturnal
Houndoom line: Nocturnal
Sableye: Lives in dark caves
Spiritomb: Composed of material depicted as shadowy

Regardless of whether there is more to the interpretation of these cases, with regard to the figurative nature of the dark type, the fact remains that it nevertheless expresses itself as darkness.

 

[sunyshore]

are...you guys seriously still on about light type? game freak practically smacked the crap out of light and sound type as if on purpose (which no they did not actually do on purpose, as that would imply that they care about made up fan theories, one originally based on a flawed translation and the other invented to look good with the other?) with helioptile and noivern. their NAMES are about light and sound. it's not happening. please can someone take light type out to be shot behind the shed. i cannot believe i stop in here after a month of not and light type is still going despite having been killed and stepped on. it is indeed the Elvis of extremely pointless fan theories.

 

[Zeb]

As much as I don't care (and never have cared) for a Light-type, people can speculate about whatever they want @sunyshore; regardless of your personal dislike for the topic or not.