The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

[Green Zubat]

Re: New Type or Alterations to Type Chart?

How many people think they're going to introduce multiple new types this gen? With Sylveon being the poster child for one of them, and lack of other Eeveelutions doing the same, I'm leaning towards the idea that there's only one myself, but I know some people disagree ...

Actually, the term "astral" can have a number of meanings not limited to stars.

Those meanings are spiritual. The connection to space is limited to stars.

Actually, I thought this "Astral" was a rebranding of the old Space-type idea at the time, though even now I still don't quite understand how it differs, because ...

Firstly, the match-up doesn't make much sense (why is Astral weak to Poison again?),

It might be a reference to ozone depletion. Again, the idea isn't limited to outer space, but could also include Earth's atmosphere.

I thought you said this type was about just stars, not heavenly objects in general? If the former, ozone depletion can't be argued, and if the latter, then the strength against Ice doesn't really make sense (nor the likely weakness to Fighting).

Besides, Poison needs to be effective against something other than Grass, whereas Ice doesn't need any more weaknesses.

Whilst I do agree, this isn't a balance issue; we just need to work out if it's theoretically compatible with the match-up. And again, Ice's new weakeness may even out in other ways.

and secondly, Sylveon's design doesn't hint much towards it. Your only hint is that one move Sylveon used, and that's not exactly compelling when a.) Pokemon can use moves of other types and b.) there's a lot more going for other ideas, particularly Love, I think.

Sylveon isn't necessarily the poster child of its type

I beg to differ, especially in light of the Smash episode.

and it's wrong to assume that Game Freak designed the new type around its physical characteristics.

I wasn't suggesting that. I mean that Pokemon are generally designed with their type in mind and I doubt Sylveon will be any different, especially given the fact that she very much is the poster child for this new type.

Above all, Sylveon looks like a magical girl, whose powers are associated with actual elements or objects rather than anything like the power of love.
Some nymphs are celestial beings, and since we know that Sylveon's type isn't Flying, there may be another way to represent its link to the sky without having it actually fly. The move used by Sylveon is reminiscent of the lunar powers exhibited in some magical girl manga like Sailor Moon.

Eh. I can kind of see your point, but I disagree about the love aspect. I mean, I'm no expert on Magical Girls, but from what I've seen they're very much associated with the power of love (either literally or thematically), and this is particularly true for two of the most famous examples, Sailor Moon & Cardcaptor Sakura; I doubt the same can be said for stars/space. If anything, the Magical Girl factor hints towards Love with at least equal weight, if not greater, then it does towards Astral.

And Sylveon isn't the only thing we can consider. The very first game trailer showed a gym with a starry background.

That's actually very true, and I hadn't thought about that; good point. However, it is possible that was just a plain old Psychic gym, though I have a feeling the starry gym and the move Sylveon used (and by extension, Sylveon's new type) are connected. However, I don't think it's in the form of an astral type (given the odd match-up, to say the least). At least, not in the way you characterise that type, anyway.

given how hard sound-based moves seem to have been pushed lately.

Pardon?

Pardon what? I meant what I said; sonic powers seem to be getting more and more prominent since they became kind of a thing in Gen III. In Gen V we even got a legendary based on sound (Meloetta), as well as two new TMs with very similar effects (Round & Echoed Voice). It just feels like they're prepping it to become a new type, IMO.

My thoughts were running along the lines of love being metaphorically warm, and sappy stuff like that.

What a wonderful idea. Let's make Ice weak against another type just to make a sappy point about the warmth of love.

Again, this isn't about why Ice got another weakness, the new type just has to be compatible with that weakness and, as I've shown, Love is

I have no idea; I don't even know what the move is, though if I had to hazard a guess I would say Wish, which isn't exactly ground-breaking and could be used by the others.

Wish doesn't involve projecting fireworks from one's body. There has to be a reason why Sylveon was given that specific move to use.

Are you sure about that? AFAIK, Wish hasn't been seen in the anime yet. What's more, the game SFX show a starry background whilst a star shoots across the screen above the target. It's not unreasonable to assume that the "firework" was the star, in the short. That said, I'm not saying that the move was definitely Wish, only that--aside from a new Gen VI move of a type other than Astral-that's my best guess.

As I already said, aliens are associated with psychic powers, so it's natural that alien lifeforms are frequently Psychic typed in the franchise.

Excusable, not natural.

No, natural, because of the above. A split is excusable (possibly).

I think you're both exaggerating now. Psychic isn't allowed to just run rampant in Pokemon (well, not anymore). Whilst they could technically be allowed to do anything under the guise of psychic power, they're generally restricted to the basic, stock powers that aren't covered by the other elements, and I don't see why Psychic needs cutting down even more than that. Like I said, if any type needs to be more strictly defined, it's Normal, but no one's saying anything about that.

So if a new element were to be introduced, Psychic would no longer have any reason to cover star-themed moves. The vast majority of Psychic-type Pokémon are not linked to stars or to outer space.

By my count, there are 14 out of approx. 40 evolution families in the Psychic type based on aliens and/or outer space, which constitutes 35% of the type--more than a third. Whilst that's not a majority, it is still a large proportion, and so taking this element away from Psychic would constitute a rather radical change to its conceptualisation.

You know, the more I think about it the more I'm starting to come round to this Astral type ... That's not to say I'm happy about it, but still, I could see it happening. However, I'm not going to be properly sold until someone explains the match-up, and properly defines it in contrast to the idea of a general Space-type.

If Sylveon couldn't take a hit from a Fighting type, perhaps instead of being weak to it as a type it just means Sylveon has weak defense in general.

They didn't imply that it was weak to Fighting, but rather that it wasn't adept in Fighting techniques.

Are you sure, because bulba (or at least the FB account, whoever controls that) appears to think so, and considering that Sylveon reacted a similar way to when she was tested for Poison, I'm inclined to agree.

IMHO, just because Sylveon hit Ice for super effective doesn't necessarily mean it's strong against Fighting. For all we know it could have been a Rock Smash (five of seven known Eeveelutions can learn it via TM) or some other Fighting-type move.

I think you mean strong against Ice. And given the light & fun nature of the skit, I highly doubt that they were bothering to account for the difference between move types and Pokemon types, and I doubly doubt that they had specific moves in mind when they were testing Sylveon (unless there's a new nun-chuck attack I'm unaware of).

 

[Silktree]

Re: New Type or Alterations to Type Chart?

I thought you said this type was about just stars, not heavenly objects in general? If the former, ozone depletion can't be argued, and if the latter, then the strength against Ice doesn't really make sense (nor the likely weakness to Fighting).

Stars have atmospheres.

I mean, I'm no expert on Magical Girls, but from what I've seen they're very much associated with the power of love (either literally or thematically), and this is particularly true for two of the most famous examples, Sailor Moon & Cardcaptor Sakura; I doubt the same can be said for stars/space. If anything, the Magical Girl factor hints towards Love with at least equal weight, if not greater, then it does towards Astral.

They might fight for love, but that isn't the source of their powers, which they obtain from enchanted objects or elements.

By my count, there are 14 out of approx. 40 evolution families in the Psychic type based on aliens and/or outer space, which constitutes 35% of the type--more than a third.

Please list them. I don't see how you could think that; I count five evolutionary lines and three legendaries, and that's including Deoxys and the Elegym line which I don't see as being related to the stars.

Are you sure, because bulba (or at least the FB account, whoever controls that) appears to think so, and considering that Sylveon reacted a similar way to when she was tested for Poison, I'm inclined to agree.

The Smash cast specifically said that Poison seemed to be super effective, but they only said that Sylveon wasn't good at using Fighting-type techniques.

 

[Green Zubat]

Re: New Type or Alterations to Type Chart?

Regarding this Astral type, if it's going to happen, I don't see why it should be limited to stars alone, and should really include the whole of space. Stars alone is something I'd expect of a Light type, or Psychic, or even Fire, and I don't see why it needs to have its own type separate of Space, really.

I thought you said this type was about just stars, not heavenly objects in general? If the former, ozone depletion can't be argued, and if the latter, then the strength against Ice doesn't really make sense (nor the likely weakness to Fighting).

Stars have atmospheres.

Yes, but I somehow doubt ozone depletion is a threat.

I mean, I'm no expert on Magical Girls, but from what I've seen they're very much associated with the power of love (either literally or thematically), and this is particularly true for two of the most famous examples, Sailor Moon & Cardcaptor Sakura; I doubt the same can be said for stars/space. If anything, the Magical Girl factor hints towards Love with at least equal weight, if not greater, then it does towards Astral.

They might fight for love, but that isn't the source of their powers, which they obtain from enchanted objects or elements.

So? Love & romance is still clearly an important aspect of Magical Girls. Also, using SM & CCS as example again, hearts are prominent in Sailor Moon's outfit, weapons & some of he attacks, and I believe her daughter (the pink-haired girl can't remember the name) also had some heart powered attack. Likewise, love is an important aspect of CCS. Regarding her powers, it's notable that the only card Sakura ever created (the Namless) has a romance motif; her signature card literally has the power of love.

By my count, there are 14 out of approx. 40 evolution families in the Psychic type based on aliens and/or outer space, which constitutes 35% of the type--more than a third.

Please list them. I don't see how you could think that; I count five evolutionary lines and three legendaries, and that's including Deoxys and the Elegym line which I don't see as being related to the stars.

Well then you've missed quite a lot, specifically:

• Mewtwo -- seems to be inspired by Greys, though I could let this one slide, since it's not technically alien, being created on Earth (though Mew may be ...)
• Unown
• Deoxys
• Cresselia
• Gothita line
• Solosis line -- very clearly an alien lifeform, hence the Psychic type
• Elgyem line
• Sigilyph -- same as Solosis line, and may be related to Unown (also alien)
• Starmie
• Lunatone
• Solrock
• Baltoy line -- according to bulba, based on "shakōkidogū, a spaceman clay figurine from the Jōmon period of Japanese history"
• Metagross line -- pretty clearly an allusion to UFOs
• Jirachi

... which makes 14.

Are you sure, because bulba (or at least the FB account, whoever controls that) appears to think so, and considering that Sylveon reacted a similar way to when she was tested for Poison, I'm inclined to agree.

The Smash specifically said that Poison seemed to be super effective, but they only said that Sylveon wasn't good at using Fighting-type techniques.

Fair enough.

 

[Silktree]

Re: New Type or Alterations to Type Chart?

Regarding this Astral type, if it's going to happen, I don't see why it should be limited to stars alone, and should really include the whole of space. Stars alone is something I'd expect of a Light type, or Psychic, or even Fire, and I don't see why it needs to have its own type separate of Space, really.

It shouldn't be called Space because then it would be limited to extraterrestial Pokémon.

Love & romance is still clearly an important aspect of Magical Girls.

It isn't the most important aspect.

Mewtwo -- seems to be inspired by Greys, though I could let this one slide, since it's not technically alien, being created on Earth (though Mew may be ...)
Unown
Solosis line -- very clearly an alien lifeform, hence the Psychic type
Sigilyph -- same as Solosis line, and may be related to Unown (also alien)
Baltoy line -- according to bulba, based on "shakōkidogū, a spaceman clay figurine from the Jōmon period of Japanese history"
Metagross line -- pretty clearly an allusion to UFOs

Loose connections are abound here. These are just your personal interpretations; the Pokédex entries don't at a connection to space at all in any of these cases. Metagross is first and foremost a supercomputer.

 

[Johnny Boy]

Re: New Type or Alterations to Type Chart?

I'm kind of hoping the fairy type rumor is true. It would spice things up a little.

 

[Ash_Pokemaster]

Re: New Type or Alterations to Type Chart?

It shouldn't be called Space because then it would be limited to extraterrestial Pokémon.

Not only that, but it would also be unmindful perspective-wise. All alien Pokémon, no matter their origin world share a common type Earth's Pokémon don't? Why? That's not to say it's unlikely there are other, alien types around the universe, but a single, common one isn't too good an idea. Though I can't say I find it too likely, an Astral type would be a good way to classify Pokémon related to space per se (rather than a planet that isn't Earth).

Edit: On a second though, that would be Alien type. I guess Space could work, although Space denotes area/interval as well as, well, outer space. Cosmic type could be a better alternative, I think.

 

[vivian20]

Re: New Type or Alterations to Type Chart?

I think sylveon's type will be fairy, and there may be another new type, perhaps cosmic.

 

[Sneazy Sneasel]

Re: New Type or Alterations to Type Chart?

As long as the current meta game isn't ruined, im ok with Fairy type.

 

[Green Zubat]

Re: New Type or Alterations to Type Chart?

Regarding this Astral type, if it's going to happen, I don't see why it should be limited to stars alone, and should really include the whole of space. Stars alone is something I'd expect of a Light type, or Psychic, or even Fire, and I don't see why it needs to have its own type separate of Space, really.

It shouldn't be called Space because then it would be limited to extraterrestial Pokémon.

If they're extraterrestrial, they're from space, so the term "Space-type" would be entirely appropriate, though Astral & Cosmic (or similar) could also fit.

Love & romance is still clearly an important aspect of Magical Girls.

It isn't the most important aspect.

So? It's still a common & significant theme to the genre, and that would be enough to give Sylveon a Magical Girl inspired design. That said, this is assuming Sylveon is based on a typical Magical Girl, and wasn't just made to have a cutesy design.

Mewtwo -- seems to be inspired by Greys, though I could let this one slide, since it's not technically alien, being created on Earth (though Mew may be ...)
Unown
Solosis line -- very clearly an alien lifeform, hence the Psychic type
Sigilyph -- same as Solosis line, and may be related to Unown (also alien)
Baltoy line -- according to bulba, based on "shakōkidogū, a spaceman clay figurine from the Jōmon period of Japanese history"
Metagross line -- pretty clearly an allusion to UFOs

Loose connections are abound here. These are just your personal interpretations; the Pokédex entries don't at a connection to space at all in any of these connections.

First off, several of those aren't my personal interpretation. In particular, I found out about Claydol & Mewtwo on Bulba's origins sections for their pages. Also I wouldn't call all of those loose connections. At least, not Unown & Claydol's line. Unown, for example, has been shown to be native to another dimension in multiple instances in the anime, and before you say "anime =/= games", the games don't contradict this; if anything, the games support that idea.

Regarding the Claydol line there is a lot of evidence that points towards it being a shakōkidogū, not least of all that the line possesses a striking resemblance to some types of them. Furthermore, as well as its classification being the Clay Doll Pokemon, the Pokedex tells us that Claydol come from clay figurines made by ancient civilisations (just like shakōkidogū). The line also learns some telling moves, like Ancient Power, Gravity & Cosmic Power, the latter two probably a reference to the spaceman thing.

In total then, that leaves 10 of 41 lines in Psychic as strongly connected to space, which is a quarter of the whole type, and hence still a significant proportion.

Metagross is first and foremost a supercomputer.

There's no reason it can't be both.

 

[El_]

Re: New Type or Alterations to Type Chart?

I will say that "Love" or Heart at least makes a lot more sense than "sound", as I see absolutely no sound related anything involved with Sylveon. The whole heart/feelings melts the ice thing, and then the heart being "poisoned" by being broken or filled with hurt.

I could actually see Game Freak doing that, however I still don't honestly want them to. Its just so... I dunno, not my thing I guess. Not only that, but Sylveon's powers in the trailer, not to mention the attacks we've seen it use don't really hint at "love" or feelings, unless you count Meowth's reaction to Sylveon which is at best merely comedy.

I'm almost certain were getting a new type, but I honestly have no clue (aside from the above about what it isn't) about what it could be. What is seriously strong against Ice and cold temperatures and weak against Poison? I mean as a physical element rather than an abstract concept. (love)

 

[Rainbow]

Re: New Type or Alterations to Type Chart?

Now I just sit here thinking about what can be done to Ice?
Of course it's obvious to me now Sylveon will be a Salt type. She's weak to Poison because that's the equivalent to food poisoning.

....I really don't know what could be weak to Poison and strong to Ice. At all ._.

 

[Kojo]

Re: New Type or Alterations to Type Chart?

I'm still betting on Fairy. Just fits the best with all of Sylveon's names similarly to the other Eeveelutions. As for its effectiveness against ice, I honestly have no clue. But there are some other type combinations that I have no idea how they work, such as ground being effective against poison

 

[Sneazy Sneasel]

Re: New Type or Alterations to Type Chart?

Just wondering, If the rumors are true and Mawile be more useful as a steel/fairy type?

 

[Meophist]

Re: New Type or Alterations to Type Chart?

I think Love/Heart makes the most amount of sense right now. We can say it could be both strong and weak against Ice and perhaps Dark. Weak against Psychic and Poison; strong against Fighting.

Not sure what else, but works decently from that, I think.

 

[Green Zubat]

Re: New Type or Alterations to Type Chart?

I'm still betting on Fairy. Just fits the best with all of Sylveon's names similarly to the other Eeveelutions. As for its effectiveness against ice, I honestly have no clue. But there are some other type combinations that I have no idea how they work, such as ground being effective against poison

Even for the more unusual match-ups, there's almost always a reason for it. For example, Ground can absorb toxins, and then filter them out as them as they travel through layers of earth.

If they make any changes to the type chart, I hope that overall they make Grass & Ice a little stronger defensively, as well as Steel & Poison being made better offensively.

 

[Meophist]

Re: New Type or Alterations to Type Chart?

I don't know if Steel really should be stronger than it is. Not all types need to be equal on the defense and offense, I think, and Steel makes a really good defensive type. Its weakness on the offense is something I've considered to be one of the Steel-type's traits.

 

[Rainbow]

Re: New Type or Alterations to Type Chart?

I think Love/Heart makes the most amount of sense right now. We can say it could be both strong and weak against Ice and perhaps Dark. Weak against Psychic and Poison; strong against Fighting.

Not sure what else, but works decently from that, I think.

In addition to this (speculation from 4chan, not me)
- Look at the eyes. They're glossed over like a blind person's. Consider this excerpt from The Merchant of Venice
"But love is blind and lovers cannot see"
- Region is based off of France. If there was ever a place to introduce love as a type, its here.
- Poison is super effective against Love (think Romeo and Juliet)
- Love is super effective against Ice (like melting an icy heart)
- Love is super effective against Dragon (as in the story of St. George and the dragon, it is George's love for the princess that gives him the bravery to face and defeat the dragon and save her)
- There are already established moves like Attract, Charm and Lovely Kiss
- There are already established Pokemon that could be Love type like Luvdisc, and Jynx

 

[Team Gaara]

Re: New Type or Alterations to Type Chart?

I would honestly prefer a Fairy, or even a Light-type over "love". I mean, what is that? Out of all the speculated types, this one probably tops all in making the least sense to me.

 

[Kojo]

Re: New Type or Alterations to Type Chart?

I'm still betting on Fairy. Just fits the best with all of Sylveon's names similarly to the other Eeveelutions. As for its effectiveness against ice, I honestly have no clue. But there are some other type combinations that I have no idea how they work, such as ground being effective against poison

Even for the more unusual match-ups, there's almost always a reason for it. For example, Ground can absorb toxins, and then filter them out as them as they travel through layers of earth.

If you really want to stretch it you can say that Fairies sometimes have control over basic elements like Water, Ice, Fire, etc.

The poison weakness is definitely understandable because there are a few stories where Fairies have to fight against pollution or they're weak against pollution. It's also harmful against stuff like forests which stereotypical fairies usually inhabit.

 

[isnorden]

Re: New Type or Alterations to Type Chart?

So far, I've seen some pretty decent arguments that Sylveon's new type will be Love (and equally good descriptions of what a Love type could/should do in-game). Still, Fairy makes equally good "game sense": lots of current Normals are fairy-like beings, and Sylveon's name in all languages suggests that this Eeveelution is fairy-like as well. Power over love fits the type as well (think of Jynx's Lovely Kiss, and Shakespeare's fairies casting love spells in A Midsummer Night's Dream).

Light fits the hypothetical pairing with sound better, and balances the existing Dark/Evil type; there are also plenty of moves that could be re-typed as Light. (Light Screen [duh!], Solar Beam, Flash Cannon and Mirror Shot come to mind...) Still, nothing in Sylveon's design or the leaked footage suggests "Light type"; so far, I'm betting my bottom PokéCredit on either Love or Fairy.