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The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

Is the Fairy-type OP?


  • Total voters
    59
You never had a substantial amount of evidence that indicated that the Dark -type moves indicated literal darkness.

They indicate darkness a good portion of the time, even if the indication is not always direct.

You don't have enough. 2 moves out of 29 is not significant.

But it's not 2.

Nocturnal behavior isn't special among Dark types; the majority of nocturnal Pokémon aren't Dark-types in game.

So? Dark types are not very numerous, so it's not at all surprising that most nocturnal pokémon aren't dark types. On the other hand, quite a few dark type pokémon are nocturnal. That's the more relevant proportion, furthermore, the implication of a dark type being nocturnal is different than another type being nocturnal.

Most Pokémon are already "good". How far can you take that concept and apply it to Light-types.

That's a moral quality. Light as a type could be characterized as channeling "holy" energy (using "good sauce" as a means, where good sauce presents as something that appears radiant like light, akin to how dark type's "evil sauce" presents as shadowy stuff). It could also be characterized as having particular ends which are holy (not unlike dark, which has underhanded tactics, or fighting, which is righteous in intention, but distinguished on the basis that light's means are spiritual instead of based in martial arts).

How does Dark's usage of "metaphorical darkness" resemble actual darkness? Don't you even pay attention to the Pokémon moves? That is the major flaw of your argument.

Many of the moves do; hence my list. Dark, shadowy purple is often used as a motif which resembles darkness.
 
Why would they make so many dark type moves and pokémon have ties to literal darkness if this theme were not meant to have significance for the meaning of the type?

They haven't made many dark type moves or pokémon based on literal darkness. They have made 2 moves that reference literal darkness and... which pokémons exactly? :/ The nocturnal pokémon are just pokémon that sleep during day and wander around at night.

What, Dark types are devils now? :)
Nope, but devils are supossed to be the "Evil". I wasn't totally serious with this answer, anyway... (hence the question mark and the "xD").
Maybe Dark is SE against Ghost because "evil" types are cold blooded and wouldn't fear ghost? Or maybe because darkies must be aware of their enemy's movements in order to hit their weak spot in the best moment and hence ghost would lose the scary/surprise factor? Idk. Ask GF! xD

You used how Eevee became Umbreon in order to a relation to the Dark type and darkness.

Actually, Umbreon represents the moonlight. It's the moonlight pokémon. Espeon represents the sun and Umbreon represents the moon --more precisely, the moon's light...
 
@Aves Does it matter what COLOR the moves are? It matters whether the move explicitly uses literal darkness, and only 2 moves use that.

While you are describing nocturnal Pokémon, you seem to use Simpson's Paradox. Also, after looking at the list of Pokemon, not that many Dark-type Pokemon are described as nocturnal; as a matter of fact, the majority aren't. The Houndoom and Mightyena lines were not nocturnal. You were using misinformation.

What moral qualities would "Light" have?

@FaerieStar You are right. Umbreon gathers power from the moon. This means that you can't clearly associate Umbreon with literal darkness. My point is still made.
 
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@Aves Does it matter what COLOR the moves are?

Colours in videogames are visual metaphors. Since they are metaphors, they are not literal. So no, the colour does not prove there's literal darkness involved. If anything, it would mean metaphorical darkness.
 
Light being somewhat represented by other types (apparently Light Screen now means that Psychic=light) doesn't mean that Game Freak can't create a Light, or 'good' type if they felt like it. Worst case scenario? They reclassify the likes of Morning Sun, Light Screen, and Flash as Light type moves. It's not like they haven't done that before (Bite and Gust went from Normal to Dark and Flying respectively in the shift between Generations I and II because they made more sense that way.) Alternatively, they could just take the easy way out and simply distribute these moves to most Light types in much the same way that almost every Water type gets Ice type moves.

I don't see how Flash/Light Screen/whatever belonging to different types is a legitimate argument against a Light type. It would be like me claiming that Bite being a Normal type move in Generation I meant that there was no way a Dark type would ever be introduced into the series. :/
 
@Aves Does it matter what COLOR the moves are? It matters whether the move explicitly uses literal darkness, and only 2 moves use that.

Yet my whole point is that the dark type is implicitly, rather than explicitly, about darkness. And this is exactly why it doesn't matter how many moves dark has which are explicit in this way. It's not a quantitative claim; it's not subject to statistical significance. It's a qualitative claim about the very implication of those two explicit references with respect to the other implicit references.

While you are describing nocturnal Pokémon, you seem to use Simpson's Paradox. Also, after looking at the list of Pokemon, not that many Dark-type Pokemon are described as nocturnal; as a matter of fact, the majority aren't. The Houndoom and Mightyena lines were not nocturnal. You were using misinformation.

The Houndoom line is nocturnal in at least some generations. The mightyena line, being related to hyenas, represent nocturnal creatures.

The percentage of nocturnal pokémon in other types, except perhaps ghost, is much less. So it doesn't really matter what the majority is, so long as dark represents a significant plurality.

What moral qualities would "Light" have?

I'm not stating that light has moral qualities any more than dark has moral qualities.
 
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I wonder if Fairy type Pokemon has an ability to float in the Air without having ''Levitate'' ability .
Like Most Ghost type Pokemon .
 
@Aves
1. To clarify, in your opinion, are these Dark-type moves implicitly about physical darkness or metaphorical darkness? If it's the former, that is false. If it is the latter, then it doesn't matter what color the moves were; you seem to imply that the moves use actual darkness or are associated with actual darkness.

2. I've checked again, and there are only 3 Dark-type Pokémon that were ever nocturnal. Also, Houndour is one, but Mightyena is not one. You are using Simpson's Paradox by changing the viewpoint from the number of nocturnal Pokémon to the number of Dark-type Pokémon. Dark doesn't represent a plurality if there are much more nocturnal Pokémon that aren't Dark. In fact, in Gen II, a larger group of nocturnal Pokémon were Water-types.

3. Why won't you talk about the moral qualities of the Light type? You look at the Dark type moves and say that because of their color, there is an association with literal and "metaphoric darkness", but you don't consider the same for Light.

@Grass Type Warrior He has said before that Dark-type moves used dark motives. Wouldn't this mean that Light-type moves use Light-type motives? He doesn't explain what the moral qualities of Light or Light's representations are because he believes that it isn't necessary.
 
This made me think. I've already been through the Psychic type and there are indeed quite a few of them that have powers other than that of the mind, but what of the moves?

Agility-I don't understand too well why this is Psychic, unless it has to do with controlling one's body with the mind. It does seem to imply that.

anything involving teleportation-Teleportation is not a mind power. It is an instantaneous movement across time and space. A reality warping power. I consider this different from ESP.

Barrier and similar moves-I don't think mind powers can make an actual physical barrier, whether it deflects physical or special moves. Wards are more of a property of general magic, also perhaps a form of reality warping.

Cosmic Power-do I even need to explain this as not being psychic?

Gravity-reality warping again, having to do with changing the properties of matter

Guard Split/Swap-this sounds similar in persuasion to Agility, only for different stats. It is directly described as being due to psychic powers, though.

Heal moves-How can psychic power block or induce the ability to heal AT ALL? I don't think healing is part of the autonomic processes, it's more a by product of cell multiplication.

Luster Purge-Psychic powers can't create beams of light, either.

Magic Room-enough said. I will include Trick Room and Wonder Room in this.

Power moves-same as the other stat manipulations

Granted, with the stat manipulating moves, they may exist more for a type specific function. There are a few of these that could be retyped to Fairy if that is what it's nature is. For now, Cosmic Power seems the best candidate, as outer space has already been referenced a lot by it's powers.
 
A lot of Psychic-type moves deal with reality warping. How else could Gardevoir create a miniature black hole to protect its trainer?

With Agility, the user relaxes their body to increase their speed. It's hard to do that using your own will. For the others, think about it. If you believe hard enough, you can make anything possible. If you could bend a spoon with your mind, who can say that you can't increase gravity or teleport? Either way, you are warping reality to an extent.
 
Just because you think it's real doesn't mean it is. I might buy somehow changing your own capabilities through the power of suggestion, but if you imagine a barrier, you cannot create one. That is something of a stretch of the powers of telekinesis. I certainly don't know of anything where psychics were powerful enough to create the force necessary to change matter. Certainly not to warp time and space. Psychic has long been defined as being able to do this in pokemon, though. This is why if certain things are going to be accredited to Fairy now, then Psychic must also be redefined. We don't really know Fairy to have reality warping powers yet, though. Sylveon has made it suspicious that perhaps it does. (not to mention a gym that also EXPLICITLY warps reality, but we don't know what type this gym is for)

EDIT: I also realize that there are moves that warp reality and they're given to Dragon, via the moves of Dialga and Palkia. Since I don't think their types should be altered, should Dragon keep these? If so, then are ANY retyping of moves necessary? Could Fairy bring an entirely new set of characteristics to pokemon?
 
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This is why if certain things are going to be accredited to Fairy now, then Psychic must also be redefined. We don't really know Fairy to have reality warping powers yet, though. Sylveon has made it suspicious that perhaps it does. (not to mention a gym that also EXPLICITLY warps reality, but we don't know what type this gym is for)
Going too far with the scope of Fairy moves would be equally bad in my opinion. The new Mewtwo Forme has space and time-related techniques that I view as neither Psychic-type nor Fairy-type. I still think that there could be a good reason for the mystery surrounding the Forme and the version mascots' types.
 
It would seem like the Fairy type would create pocket dimensions, but not necessarily warp existing dimensions.

There are many branches of psychokinesis that may or may not involve matter.
 
@Aves
1. To clarify, in your opinion, are these Dark-type moves implicitly about physical darkness or metaphorical darkness? If it's the former, that is false. If it is the latter, then it doesn't matter what color the moves were; you seem to imply that the moves use actual darkness or are associated with actual darkness.

Both. More specifically, the dark type has an implicit darkness theme to it. The former is not false because it is demonstrated by examples. The latter does matter because the metaphorical darkness presents itself (by color, but also other cues) as actual darkness. Discounting the color and saying it doesn't matter, much like ignoring other examples of the darkness theme, requires a fairly convoluted interpretation of the dark type. The better and more parsimonious interpretation recognizes the darkness theme of the type.

2. I've checked again, and there are only 3 Dark-type Pokémon that were ever nocturnal. Also, Houndour is one, but Mightyena is not one. You are using Simpson's Paradox by changing the viewpoint from the number of nocturnal Pokémon to the number of Dark-type Pokémon. Dark doesn't represent a plurality if there are much more nocturnal Pokémon that aren't Dark. In fact, in Gen II, a larger group of nocturnal Pokémon were Water-types.

The nocturnal mechanic is only used in generation II and IV. It is a limited measure of the more general trend of dark types being associated with night. Umbreon, for example, doesn't show up as nocturnal under the mechanic because they aren't found in the wild. Darkrai is a legendary. The Mightyena line seems to be an oversight of generation IV, considering that real hyenas actually are nocturnal. In any case, association with night is a recurring theme in the dark type, and the nocturnal mechanic just one way of showing this theme.

3. Why won't you talk about the moral qualities of the Light type? You look at the Dark type moves and say that because of their color, there is an association with literal and "metaphoric darkness", but you don't consider the same for Light.

I find whatever standard of moral interpretation which we want to apply to the dark type would be the same for the light type. In my opinion, the dark type seems to have an association with moral evil, but it does not make dark types themselves inherently morally evil. The light type would have an association with moral good, in the sense that it would likely make references to many moral virtues, but in the same way does not define light types as inherently morally good. The moral quality of individual pokémon themselves is, of course, dependent on their character and actions as individuals, not pre-set by their type. But the dark and light types battle strategies would evoke the moral metaphor.
 
This would be two separate definitions of "dimension" for me, one being a measurement, and the other being a synonym for an alternate reality. Both are warping realit in a way, but the latter is on a scale so ridiculous that the laws of physics break down. I consider this to be the essence of making another reality, though: to rewrite the laws the reality goes by. The power of the mind can only do this in a metaphorical sense. While it has long sort of been a trait of magic to bend reality to one's will, one can say the same of any elemental power in existence as well. The entire system then breaks down. A line has to be drawn somewhere. I don't think psychics should have the force to warp reality, but until a distinction is made, I am powerless to the given definition.
 
@Aves
1. To clarify, in your opinion, are these Dark-type moves implicitly about physical darkness or metaphorical darkness? If it's the former, that is false. If it is the latter, then it doesn't matter what color the moves were; you seem to imply that the moves use actual darkness or are associated with actual darkness.

Both. More specifically, the dark type has an implicit darkness theme to it. The former is not false because it is demonstrated by examples. The latter does matter because the metaphorical darkness presents itself (by color, but also other cues) as actual darkness. Discounting the color and saying it doesn't matter, much like ignoring other examples of the darkness theme, requires a fairly convoluted interpretation of the dark type. The better and more parsimonious interpretation recognizes the darkness theme of the type.

2. I've checked again, and there are only 3 Dark-type Pokémon that were ever nocturnal. Also, Houndour is one, but Mightyena is not one. You are using Simpson's Paradox by changing the viewpoint from the number of nocturnal Pokémon to the number of Dark-type Pokémon. Dark doesn't represent a plurality if there are much more nocturnal Pokémon that aren't Dark. In fact, in Gen II, a larger group of nocturnal Pokémon were Water-types.

The nocturnal mechanic is only used in generation II and IV. It is a limited measure of the more general trend of dark types being associated with night. Umbreon, for example, doesn't show up as nocturnal under the mechanic because they aren't found in the wild. Darkrai is a legendary. The Mightyena line seems to be an oversight of generation IV, considering that real hyenas actually are nocturnal. In any case, association with night is a recurring theme in the dark type, and the nocturnal mechanic just one way of showing this theme.

3. Why won't you talk about the moral qualities of the Light type? You look at the Dark type moves and say that because of their color, there is an association with literal and "metaphoric darkness", but you don't consider the same for Light.

I find whatever standard of moral interpretation which we want to apply to the dark type would be the same for the light type. In my opinion, the dark type seems to have an association with moral evil, but it does not make dark types themselves inherently morally evil. The light type would have an association with moral good, in the sense that it would likely make references to many moral virtues, but in the same way does not define light types as inherently morally good. The moral quality of individual pokémon themselves is, of course, dependent on their character and actions as individuals, not pre-set by their type. But the dark and light types battle strategies would evoke the moral metaphor.

1. The Dark-type moves do not take the form of actual darkness! Why are you still stuck on that? You argument relies on a statement that is essentially false. How do Sucker Punches, striking someone when they're down (Assurance), striking when the opponent least expects it (Night Slash), or using Fake Tears use darkness?

2. You could find Poochyenas during the daytime in Heartgold and Soulsilver in swarms. You could even find them in Platinum during the day. I don't know why you are saying that this was an oversight.

If you say that night is a recurring theme for Dark, then day, or light, would be a recurring theme for Light. Since Espeon evolves during the day, it is representative of light, using your logic.

3. What (type of) moves do you think that Light would have that aren't already covered by other types?

@Samurott Through the power of suggestion, they can transfer status effects to other Pokémon. It's as if they completely healed themselves. This is a way that Psychic-types can bend reality. There are moves like Healing Wish and Lunar Dance that heal team Pokémon. They already know moves that affect gravity and, in turn, space-time.
 
The Houndoom line is nocturnal in at least some generations. The mightyena line, being related to hyenas, represent nocturnal creatures.
Not really. There is nothing in either species's official Pokedex entries stating nocturnal behavior. There's a reference that Houndoom's black fur blends in well with darkness (which would be equally true for any black Pokemon species), and that Houndour like to howl at dawn, but that's pretty much it.
 
1. The Dark-type moves do not take the form of actual darkness! Why are you still stuck on that? You argument relies on a statement that is essentially false. How do Sucker Punches, striking someone when they're down (Assurance), striking when the opponent least expects it (Night Slash), or using Fake Tears use darkness?

They do. Night Daze and Dark Void are explicit forms of actual darkness. The implication of these two examples is not isolated from the implicit motifs (in other moves and in dark type pokémon) which indicate the darkness theme of the dark type. It is of no concern to me whatsoever that the dark type's physical moves don't "use darkness" in the same way.

2. You could find Poochyenas during the daytime in Heartgold and Soulsilver in swarms. You could even find them in Platinum during the day. I don't know why you are saying that this was an oversight.

The real basis is the hyena, which is a nocturnal creature.

If you say that night is a recurring theme for Dark, then day, or light, would be a recurring theme for Light. Since Espeon evolves during the day, it is representative of light, using your logic.

I've only attempted to establish that darkness is a theme for dark, not that light isn't a theme for psychic. We can agree that psychic uses some examples of light. But it doesn't use light in the way that the light type would. So this is a false analogy.

3. What (type of) moves do you think that Light would have that aren't already covered by other types?

There is no type which meets both these conditions:
* uses literal light, or radiance, as a means for a metaphorical purpose (is teleologically holy)
* has holy or divine power as its most characteristic source

The light type is, in my mind, defined in a non-vague way as having a theme of the use of light in a holy manner. Consequently the descriptive nature of any light type move or pokémon would indicate why it would not be covered by an existing type, and existing types' coverage of things similar to the use of light are only auxiliary to their main definition.

I will say that I've used the word "light type" as a placeholder. My guess is that there are some other things the archetype could be called, perhaps even different things in different languages, the way the dark type is. I would also guess that, like the dark type, the light type would not always use light in an explicit manner. Though I think it would be more special-oriented than the dark type, so it would have a much more prominent correlation to light.
 
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