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The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

Is the Fairy-type OP?


  • Total voters
    59
1. The Dark-type moves do not take the form of actual darkness! Why are you still stuck on that? You argument relies on a statement that is essentially false. How do Sucker Punches, striking someone when they're down (Assurance), striking when the opponent least expects it (Night Slash), or using Fake Tears use darkness?

They do. Night Daze and Dark Void are explicit forms of actual darkness. The implication of these two examples is not isolated from the implicit motifs (in other moves and in dark type pokémon) which indicate the darkness theme of the dark type. It is of no concern to me whatsoever that the dark type's physical moves don't "use darkness" in the same way.

2. You could find Poochyenas during the daytime in Heartgold and Soulsilver in swarms. You could even find them in Platinum during the day. I don't know why you are saying that this was an oversight.

The real basis is the hyena, which is a nocturnal creature.

If you say that night is a recurring theme for Dark, then day, or light, would be a recurring theme for Light. Since Espeon evolves during the day, it is representative of light, using your logic.

I've only attempted to establish that darkness is a theme for dark, not that light isn't a theme for psychic. We can agree that psychic uses some examples of light. But it doesn't use light in the way that the light type would. So this is a false analogy.

3. What (type of) moves do you think that Light would have that aren't already covered by other types?

There is no type which meets both these conditions:
* uses literal light, or radiance, as a means for a metaphorical purpose (is teleologically holy)
* has holy or divine power as its most characteristic source

The light type is, in my mind, defined in a non-vague way as having a theme of the use of light in a holy manner. Consequently the descriptive nature of any light type move or pokémon would indicate why it would not be covered by an existing type, and existing types' coverage of things similar to the use of light are only auxiliary to their main definition.

I will say that I've used the word "light type" as a placeholder. My guess is that there are some other things the archetype could be called, perhaps even different things in different languages, the way the dark type is. I would also guess that, like the dark type, the light type would not always use light in an explicit manner. Though I think it would be more special-oriented than the dark type, so it would have a much more prominent correlation to light.

1. Congratulations on repeating what I said before while altering my statement. Now, you contradicted yourself by using those 2 moves as examples of literal darkness without understanding the purpose of them. Those moves are signature moves of Darkrai and Zoroark, and they use those in an "evil" way. That is only 2 out of 29 moves that uses a form of literal darkness. That isn't representative of the entire type, and you can't use those to show that all of the other moves are associated with literal darkness. It's a logical fallacy.

2. Even if the hyena is a nocturnal creature, the games don't reflect that in Poochyena or Mightyena at all. Example: Although Flygon is based on a dragonfly, it is a dragon fly. The Pokémon don't need to have the same behavior as the animals that their design comes from.

Light is a theme for the legendary Pokémon Cresselia, and Espeon evolves during the day. Cresselia especially uses Psychic-type moves in the way that a Light-type would. The analogy isn't false if the premise were the statements "Types have a specific motive." and "Dark's motive is darkness." The premises themselves must be considered true.

3. You said that light would use light in a holy manner. Dark's theme isn't literal darkness used in evil ways. It seems like your definition of the Light type is trying to be a counterpart of your definition of the Dark type. I thought that the interaction between "Light" and Dark wasn't important.
 
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Not really. There is nothing in either species's official Pokedex entries stating nocturnal behavior. There's a reference that Houndoom's black fur blends in well with darkness (which would be equally true for any black Pokemon species), and that Houndour like to howl at dawn, but that's pretty much it.

In every game that has implemented the Day/Night system and has Houndour as an available wild Pokemon, it only appears at night. Unless, of course, it's a swarm, but that's different. In GSCHgSs? It only appears outside of Celadon...at night. In Sinnoh? It only appears outside of Lake Valor...at night, etc.

I think this pretty solidly implies that Houndour/doom is a nocturnal Pokemon.
 
Not really. There is nothing in either species's official Pokedex entries stating nocturnal behavior. There's a reference that Houndoom's black fur blends in well with darkness (which would be equally true for any black Pokemon species), and that Houndour like to howl at dawn, but that's pretty much it.

In every game that has implemented the Day/Night system and has Houndour as an available wild Pokemon, it only appears at night. Unless, of course, it's a swarm, but that's different. In GSCHgSs? It only appears outside of Celadon...at night. In Sinnoh? It only appears outside of Lake Valor...at night, etc.

I think this pretty solidly implies that Houndour/doom is a nocturnal Pokemon.

In Platinum, it appears at route 214 at all times of the day, mainly at midday at 25% compared to the 15% of the other times. It does appear at Valor Lakefront in all times of the day, but mainly at night at 20% compared to the 10% for dawn or midday. The statement that Houndour is nocturnal is invalid since it appears at all times of the day in Gen IV.
 
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I wonder if Fairy type Pokemon has an ability to float in the Air without having ''Levitate'' ability .
Like Most Ghost type Pokemon .

Well, Jigglypuff, Marill and Sylveon don't seem to float. Gardevoir is inmune to gravity, in theory, and Flabébé does appear to be floaty. So I guess we'll have to wait to see more faeries to know how common the floatiness will be.

I don't see how Flash/Light Screen/whatever belonging to different types is a legitimate argument against a Light type. It would be like me claiming that Bite being a Normal type move in Generation I meant that there was no way a Dark type would ever be introduced into the series. :/

It isn't a legitimate argument against a Light type, certainly. Just like a couple of moves about literal darkess belonging to the Evil type is not a legitimate argument against a separate Darkness type.

I certainly don't know of anything where psychics were powerful enough to create the force necessary to change matter. Certainly not to warp time and space.

Well, there are media where psychic abilities are shown to be able to do that kind of stuff. Jean Grey from X-Men is able to manipulate matter at a subatomic level through powerful telekinesis. Tsururin from Arale had psychic powers who allowed her to teleport. Of course, in other media psychic powers do not include this abilities.

I think reality-warping is usually described as something different than psychic, though.

I do think some psychic moves are beyond what I would describe as "psychic powers".

Quel coincidence! I was not totally serious with my question!

I had considered that posibility.

@Aves Dark colours are typically associated to evil. Nocturnality is many times associated to evil. I don't see how hyenas being nocturnal in real life is relevant to anything. Hyenas are also considered untrustworthy if not plainly evil, anyway.
We can agree that psychic uses some examples of light. But it doesn't use light in the way that the light type would. So this is a false analogy.
No one knows how the Light type would use light. You could say that it doesn't use light in the way that you think the light type would. The Evil type doesn't use darkness in the way I think a Darkness type would. Ghost kinda does, though. So I guess that, for me, there's one evil type and one darkness type, which happen to be two different types. I also do not think that the Evil type represents the diabolic/unholy/abominations or however you would call the opossite of holiness.

As much as I disagree in considering the Dark type to be really about darkness, however, I agree that a light-themed type that represents holiness -or, at least, general goodness- could exist. It might even be the case of the Faerie type, with the all-good Gardevoir and the Moonblast... (Of course Faerie might not be that at all).
 
1. Congratulations on repeating what I said before while altering my statement. Now, you contradicted yourself by using those 2 moves as examples of literal darkness without understanding the purpose of them. Those moves are signature moves of Darkrai and Zoroark, and they use those in an "evil" way. That is only 2 out of 29 moves that uses a form of literal darkness. That isn't representative of the entire type, and you can't use those to show that all of the other moves are associated with literal darkness. It's a logical fallacy.

Yet that isn't what I said at all. Those two moves use of explicit darkness, as well as the implicit darkness theme in many other moves and pokémon, are mutually supportive of the representation of darkness in the dark type.

Qualitatively, the two moves set a precedent in my mind for continued explicit references to darkness in the dark type in the future. That would be my prediction.

2. Even if the hyena is a nocturnal creature, the games don't reflect that in Poochyena or Mightyena at all. Example: Although Flygon is based on a dragonfly, it is a dragon fly. The Pokémon don't need to have the same behavior as the animals that their design comes from.

It's merely a statement about the sort of creature that is made into a dark type. I would predict that many dark types in the future will have some basis in creatures that are actually nocturnal, whether or not this is followed through with the nocturnal mechanic.

Light is a theme for the legendary Pokémon Cresselia, and Espeon evolves during the day. Cresselia especially uses Psychic-type moves in the way that a Light-type would. The analogy isn't false if the premise were the statements "Types have a specific motive." and "Dark's motive is darkness." The premises themselves must be considered true.

I would disagree that Cresselia's use of psychic type moves is a sufficient elaboration on the archetype I'm concerned with.

3. You said that light would use light in a holy manner. Dark's theme isn't literal darkness used in evil ways. It seems like your definition of the Light type is trying to be a counterpart of your definition of the Dark type. I thought that the interaction between "Light" and Dark wasn't important.

It isn't that important. Even if you wanted to establish that there was no correlation between dark and use of darkness, the light archetype only becomes a counterpart to the dark type when you take the two together. What I've outlined about the archetype is more about delimiting its content using other fantasy genre media as a reference to the pokémon paradigm, than an attempt to make light specifically a counterpart to another type. It would, of course, end up being a counterpart as such. I would suggest that the existence of the light type as such might also indicate similar mirroring in future dark designs.

@Aves Dark colours are typically associated to evil. Nocturnality is many times associated to evil. I don't see how hyenas being nocturnal in real life is relevant to anything. Hyenas are also considered untrustworthy if not plainly evil, anyway.

It's just a statement about a kind of way the darkness theme in dark manifests itself. It turns out the correlation between nocturnal creatures and the idea that they're evil is tied to the whole metaphor in the dark type. I mean, it's not as though the translation of the dark type in most languages as "dark" is a totally baseless mistake. Clearly, a double meaning is meant.

No one knows how the Light type would use light. You could say that it doesn't use light in the way that you think the light type would. The Evil type doesn't use darkness in the way I think a Darkness type would. Ghost kinda does, though. So I guess that, for me, there's one evil type and one darkness type, which happen to be two different types. I also do not think that the Evil type represents the diabolic/unholy/abominations or however you would call the opossite of holiness.

Well, duh. I'm basing my statements off of parallel versions equivalent to the light type in other media. I already stated that I thought the light type would interact with both the dark and ghost types.
 
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Why do some people spell it "faerie"? It's "FAIRY". :S

It's the same but with a different spelling. Like how in the UK it's "colour" but in America it's "color".
 
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Why do some people spell it "faerie"? It's "FAIRY". :S

It's the same but with a different spelling. Like how in the UK it's "colour" but in America it's "color".

Except it's not, because when we're referring to the Pokémon terminology, it's Fairy. There is no instance in which the type is referred to by the spelling of "Faerie" in any language, unlike colour/color.
 
Why do some people spell it "faerie"? It's "FAIRY". :S

It's the same but with a different spelling. Like how in the UK it's "colour" but in America it's "color".

Except it's not, because when we're referring to the Pokémon terminology, it's Fairy. There is no instance in which the type is referred to by the spelling of "Faerie" in any language, unlike colour/color.

While faerie may not be used in the game, that doesn't change that it is still an alternate spelling of fairy.
 
@Aves There are only 2 moves that use explicit literal darkness, there aren't any other moves that use literal darkness explicitly or implicitly, and all of the moves could be defined under "metaphorical darkness". Why am I still using "metaphorical darkness"? It's only a euphemism for evil that you created in order to associate evil with literal darkness. And still, a small minority of Dark-type Pokémon are nocturnal, so they don't relate to literal darkness that way. You made a prediction about how newer Dark-types will be nocturnal in order for your point to be proven. Your prediction is wishful thinking.

The amount of Dark-type Pokémon that were nocturnal decreased from Gen II to IV. Murkrow was the only Dark-type nocturnal Pokémon in game. The small minority of Dark-types are derived from things that are possibly nocturnal or crepuscular.

Oh yeah, please explain to me why Psychic-type moves are generally ineffective against Dark-types or why, "coincidentally", Psychic-types have a 'light" theme and have moves that use "light" or have healing attributes.

Your definition of Light makes it a counterpart especially to the Dark type, of course. That is the problem; attempting to delineate Light by making that definition is actually restricting it; it is arguably one of the most important interactions between types, like how Fairy is super-effective to Dragons or how Ice is weak to Fire. Attempting to associate Dark-type moves with literal darkness whenever they are clearly not causes problems with how the types interact with each other.
 
@Aves There are only 2 moves that use explicit literal darkness, there aren't any other moves that use literal darkness explicitly or implicitly,

Nah, plenty of them seem to use it implicitly.

and all of the moves could be defined under "metaphorical darkness". Why am I still using "metaphorical darkness"? It's only a euphemism for evil that you created in order to associate evil with literal darkness. And still, a small minority of Dark-type Pokémon are nocturnal, so they don't relate to literal darkness that way. You made a prediction about how newer Dark-types will be nocturnal in order for your point to be proven. Your prediction is wishful thinking.

That's an exaggeration. It's a pretty modest prediction, not wishful thinking.

Oh yeah, please explain to me why Psychic-type moves are generally ineffective against Dark-types or why, "coincidentally", Psychic-types have a 'light" theme and have moves that use "light" or have healing attributes

Of the existing types, psychic is the closest approximate to where those themes would fit. Psychic is ineffective against dark almost purely for balance reasons. And you still haven't addressed the basic issue that placing these themes in psychic is less effective than placing them in their own type.

Your definition of Light makes it a counterpart especially to the Dark type, of course. That is the problem; attempting to delineate Light by making that definition is actually restricting it; it is arguably one of the most important interactions between types, like how Fairy is super-effective to Dragons or how Ice is weak to Fire. Attempting to associate Dark-type moves with literal darkness whenever they are clearly not causes problems with how the types interact with each other.

I don't have a problem with restricting it. I feel the archetype is fruitful enough for its own type. The point is rather that dark does not need to be interpreted in a particular way to interpret light in this way.
 
@Aves There are only 2 moves that use explicit literal darkness, there aren't any other moves that use literal darkness explicitly or implicitly,

Nah, plenty of them seem to use it implicitly.

and all of the moves could be defined under "metaphorical darkness". Why am I still using "metaphorical darkness"? It's only a euphemism for evil that you created in order to associate evil with literal darkness. And still, a small minority of Dark-type Pokémon are nocturnal, so they don't relate to literal darkness that way. You made a prediction about how newer Dark-types will be nocturnal in order for your point to be proven. Your prediction is wishful thinking.

That's an exaggeration. It's a pretty modest prediction, not wishful thinking.

Oh yeah, please explain to me why Psychic-type moves are generally ineffective against Dark-types or why, "coincidentally", Psychic-types have a 'light" theme and have moves that use "light" or have healing attributes

Of the existing types, psychic is the closest approximate to where those themes would fit. Psychic is ineffective against dark almost purely for balance reasons. And you still haven't addressed the basic issue that placing these themes in psychic is less effective than placing them in their own type.

Your definition of Light makes it a counterpart especially to the Dark type, of course. That is the problem; attempting to delineate Light by making that definition is actually restricting it; it is arguably one of the most important interactions between types, like how Fairy is super-effective to Dragons or how Ice is weak to Fire. Attempting to associate Dark-type moves with literal darkness whenever they are clearly not causes problems with how the types interact with each other.

I don't have a problem with restricting it. I feel the archetype is fruitful enough for its own type. The point is rather that dark does not need to be interpreted in a particular way to interpret light in this way.

None of the Dark-type moves use implicit literal darkness, and only two use it explicitly. You're stretching the definition of how literal darkness is expressed in order to support your statement. Just because something is purple or black doesn't mean that it is a form of literal darkness. Claws can glow white. Tails can glow white. So, it doesn't matter.

Your prediction is wishful thinking because it contradicts with both the amount of nocturnal Pokémon and the Dark-type Pokémon that are derived from mainly nocturnal animals. It doesn't help that more nocturnal Pokémon were ghost than dark, and there are more non-Dark-type nocturnal Pokémon.

Are you sure that it it purely for balance reasons (Psychic being ineffective to Dark-type Pokémon and being weak to Dark-type moves)? There must be a reason for that to happen. You can't say that it's because of fears to literal darkness; it would've made sense if it was originally named "Dark" to begin with. Also, how is it less effective to attribute light to Psychic? With Luster Purge, Miracle Eye, Healing Wish, and Light Screen, Psychic could already fit the Light-type very well.

The way that you've interpreted Dark and Light makes them complete opposites. Light still requires Dark to be interpreted in your way.
 
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Well, I didn't think the "faerie" spelling would offend anyone. I don't see what's the big deal with saying "faerie type", even if that's not the spelling used in official sources. I just prefer that spelling of the word.
 
None of the Dark-type moves use implicit literal darkness, and only two use it explicitly. You're stretching the definition of how literal darkness is expressed in order to support your statement. Just because something is purple or black doesn't mean that it is a form of literal darkness. Claws can glow white. Tails can glow white. So, it doesn't matter.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Your prediction is wishful thinking because it contradicts with both the amount of nocturnal Pokémon and the Dark-type Pokémon that are derived from mainly nocturnal animals. It doesn't help that more nocturnal Pokémon were ghost than dark, and there are more non-Dark-type nocturnal Pokémon.

Not really. The nocturnal mechanic, as stated, is only one way to show an association with darkness. I don't actually need to make any quantitative claims about the dark type. I am qualitatively weighing the significance of the evidence, and rightfully so, considering the factors of the metaphor being evoked as a theme, as well as clear paradigm cases like Umbreon. So any quantitative critique you want to make about this evaluation of the dark type is irrelevant.

Are you sure that it it purely for balance reasons (Psychic being ineffective to Dark-type Pokémon and being weak to Dark-type moves)? There must be a reason for that to happen. You can't say that it's because of fears to literal darkness; it would've made sense if it was originally named "Dark" to begin with. Also, how is it less effective to attribute light to Psychic? With Luster Purge, Miracle Eye, Healing Wish, and Light Screen, Psychic could already fit the Light-type very well.

I don't know, really. It doesn't seem to me that there is a totally clear justification for the type relationship between dark and psychic. But then, that is sometimes the case in the type chart. I suppose some creative thinking could provide a justification for why the "evil type" relates to psychic the way it does. But I would stipulate that things like Espeon and Cresselia having themes that they do as psychic types seems to be a placement which happens after the fact of the type relationship is considered, with psychic currently as the counterpart to dark as such. But light would have these themes prior to its relationship to the dark type (as in, it's a typification of those themes in themselves).

A type, in addition to having a mechanical value in the rock-paper-scissors paradigm, is also an aesthetic classification. Grouping the instances of light in the psychic type with everything else associated with the psychic type means that the theme of light is rather diluted. My second criterion, that the power source for the light theme is most characteristically holy or divine in nature, is not met by the psychic type, which is only overall characteristically psionic. It also dilutes psychic's focus on mental powers or pure intentionality. Classifying the theme on its own makes it more recognizable while making psychic more focused.

Finally, I would say that I envision the light type as a more spiritual counterpart to the fighting type. It's the holy magic, or theurgical type. Usually, that would indicate a super effective relation on the dark type. Psychic, on the other hand, is ineffective.

The way that you've interpreted Dark and Light makes them complete opposites. Light still requires Dark to be interpreted in your way.

Not really. I could concede that the dark type has no darkness theme at all and light would still reference its own archetype. The type relationship between the two, as counterparts, in this case would be more so about the righteous vs. underhanded themes of the types. The use of light, per the light vs. shadow relation, might be more expressed by light's type relation to the ghost type.
 
My point was that the nocturnal mechanic is not a great way to associate Dark-types with actual darkness since few Dark-type Pokémon come from or are nocturnal things.

I asked about the relation between Psychic and Dark because it is an interaction that isn't easily explained, and I don't know. Psychic types deal with the mind=power theme in most cases, but some Psychic types are known to be reality warpers, like Gardevoir creating miniature black holes, or teleportation. Could those 2 things be synonymous? In what do Dark-types have an advantage compared to Psychic-types?

Wouldn't Fairy-types be magic users if you take their roles in older mythology into account? How would holy magic be different?
 
I thought about it, and I guess maybe the justification is something along the lines that psychic represents intelligence and knowledge, using the power of its mind to gain advantages in battle, whereas the dark type, in being about trickery and deception, is able to fool psychics. You'd think that psychics would actually be in the best position to see through that trickery compared to other types, but it seems dark type has a supernatural component to its ability to deceive.

For me, fairies seem very earthy and nature-oriented. The feel of nature magic and divine magic is a little different. The latter seems more abstracted from material things, and more about a emphasis on the mystical spirit. That's where the celestial motif comes from, since the heavens were once thought to be separate from the earthy realm. And fairies and other fairy tale mythological figures are pretty morally grey. I imagine the inspiration for light types would be stuff more like angels, saints, clergy, monastics and other mystical ascetics per the Judeo-Christian tradition, and then Zoroastrian Ahura, Hindu Devas, bodhisattvas, and divine figures from a variety of religions and mythological traditions that don't have a strong association with nature or chthonic themes.
 
Wouldn't Fairy-types be magic users if you take their roles in older mythology into account? How would holy magic be different?

There are different types of magic. And there is a difference between primal/nature magic, divine magic, and the traditional arcane magic. Fairy can easily represent one but not the others. The word 'magic' is a very broad term and seldom does one being or group of beings have control over all aspects of it.
 
2. Example: Although Flygon is based on a dragonfly, it is a dragon fly. The Pokémon don't need to have the same behavior as the animals that their design comes from.
Antlion, actually, but mature antlions do look like dragonflies all the same.

It's merely a statement about the sort of creature that is made into a dark type.
But there are many Pokemon based on nocturnal creatures who are NOT Dark-types. I don't have quantities or ratios at hand, but consider Zubat and Noctowl.
 
Do fairies use nature magic or general magic in mythology?

That depends on the interpretation (and sometimes, on the Fairy in question,) but I've personally never heard of a single fairy in mythology that uses divine magic.
 
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