The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

[Aves]

The distinction itself comes later than can be found in early mythology. As religious systems got more sophisticated over time, they began to emphasize different things than nature worship. Hence the Judeo-Christian god, which is a particularly abstract figure with a strong theme of absolute transcendence. But you can also see the development in the cult of Dionysus, where he started at one end of the spectrum and gradually moved to the other.

 

[FaerieStar]

It turns out the correlation between nocturnal creatures and the idea that they're evil is tied to the whole metaphor in the dark type.

Correlation does not imply causation. Animals that are regarded as evil almost invariably behave in ways that can potentially harm or be inconvenient to humans. Usually, they are either potential food "stealers", like scavangers and predators, or potential direct threats, like predators and poisonous things. They are not considered evil for the mere fact of being nocturnal. Being diurnal does not prevent animals from this consideration, either.

Even if those animals were considered evil just for being nocturnal, they are chosen for the Dark type because they're evil. Being nocturnal is not necessary for being pokémonified as a dark type and it doesn't seem to be sufficient, either.

Clearly

Something that's being discussed can hardly be considered to be clear.

So any quantitative critique you want to make about this evaluation of the dark type is irrelevant.

I would say that quantities are rather relevant when making generalisations.

as well as clear paradigm cases like Umbreon.

1. Umbreon is actually powered by light.
2. This would make psychic type so clearly related to the sun, because of clear paradigm cases like Espeon.

And fairies and other fairy tale mythological figures are pretty morally grey.

Well, even holy angels -like in the ones that have not fallen- have a rather questionable morality, even by Judeo-Christian standards, so I wouldn't use this one point to differentate both concepts.

I imagine the inspiration for light types would be stuff more like angels, saints, clergy, monastics and other mystical ascetics per the Judeo-Christian tradition, and then Zoroastrian Ahura, Hindu Devas, bodhisattvas, and divine figures from a variety of religions and mythological traditions.

I wouldn't love to see pokémon based on priests and nuns. Otherwise your holy type sounds like an interesting thing to see.

That depends on the interpretation (and sometimes, on the Fairy in question,) but I've personally never heard of a single fairy in mythology that uses divine magic.

I can tell of no faerie that uses "holy" magic. Divine is a much less definite concept, though.

 

[Jukain]

Can we really define a type so easily? There's a bunch of stuff that seems arbitrarily plugged into a type. Just whatever they feel like they want to put in there. True, all of them seem to have an overarching theme, but to say that one thing is all there is would be false. There's lots of things that go into a type, not just one thing.

 

[LimitCrown]

Yes, but because all of the types each have an overarching theme, you can define them by those themes. There aren't that many moves that are drastically different from those themes.

 

[Jukain]

So what are you saying? That Fairy type is impossible? It sounds like that is what is going on. Or at least that whatever type this guy is suggesting is impossible. However, I say if you say that's impossible, then Fairy is impossible too since there are traits it has that are ALREADY defined by the given types. DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THE TYPES NEED TO BE REDEFINED. We can't use given knowledge of types because the fact that they DID add a new type means something has to give, unless it's something that wasn't even covered by the other types, which would mean an entirely new set of moves. I find this highly unlikely.

 

[LimitCrown]

I never said that the Fairy-type was impossible. We don't know what the Fairy-type is. All of the types (besides the Fairy-type because we don't have enough information) each have a central theme to them, so Fairy-type (and therefore other unknown types) would, too. I don't understand what you're trying to say.

 

[Envoy]

DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THE TYPES NEED TO BE REDEFINED.

Are you crazy? We can't redefine the sanctity of types. It goes against my religion. Arceus was very clear about what he thinks of Fairy types. It is immoral and amoral, and I will not stand for it. Types have been defined the way they have ever since the creation of Pokemon. Redefining them would be sacrilegious.

 

[Jukain]

I'm saying that what we know of pokemon is no longer valid. When this all began, all we knew were 15 types. Then two more were added and Magnemite/ton was changed. The typings of some moves also changed. I only know this to be true of Dark, and Steel only had all new moves when it was introduced. We've known these 17 types for a long time now. An 18th one was added. Again, what was true before is no longer so. We have not yet seen any moves be retyped, so I can't exactly say that, but a lot of people expect it to happen. It is either that or an entire new set of moves, meaning something that none of the other 17 types did in the slightest. To retype ANYTHING, though, is to redefine it's nature. This is true of pokemon and it's true of moves. Do you find it sacrilegious that Gardevoir is no longer pure Psychic? Or the other pure pokemon having Fairy as a second type now? We've known that to be true before. It is no longer true. This type either borrows from what is true of the given types, requiring them to be redefined, or it's something that NONE of the types do.

 

[LimitCrown]

If Fairy does something that the others can't, then that's fine. Fairy has its own identity. That's likely to happen.

Only Magnemite and Rotom's alternate forms were retyped (prior to Gen VI). Those made sense. Jigglypuff, Gardevoir, and Marill (especially Marill)... what? it seems like those 3 Pokemon being retyped were a case of "they didn't care". There are other Pokemon that they could've added because it would've made sense. Otherwise, I don't have a problem with it, and they could retcon it somehow.

It's unlikely that any moves will be retyped.

 

[Beck]

If Fairy does something that the others can't, then that's fine. Fairy has its own identity. That's likely to happen.

Only Magnemite and Rotom's alternate forms were retyped (prior to Gen VI). Those made sense. Jigglypuff, Gardevoir, and Marill (especially Marill)... what? it seems like those 3 Pokemon being retyped were a case of "they didn't care". There are other Pokemon that they could've added because it would've made sense. Otherwise, I don't have a problem with it, and they could retcon it somehow.

It's unlikely that any moves will be retyped.

How is any Pokemon's retyping a case of "they didn't care?" Each Pokemon that received a retcon received it for a reason.

 

[LimitCrown]

If Fairy does something that the others can't, then that's fine. Fairy has its own identity. That's likely to happen.

Only Magnemite and Rotom's alternate forms were retyped (prior to Gen VI). Those made sense. Jigglypuff, Gardevoir, and Marill (especially Marill)... what? it seems like those 3 Pokemon being retyped were a case of "they didn't care". There are other Pokemon that they could've added because it would've made sense. Otherwise, I don't have a problem with it, and they could retcon it somehow.

It's unlikely that any moves will be retyped.

How is any Pokemon's retyping a case of "they didn't care?" Each Pokemon that received a retcon received it for a reason.

Are you sure? The Pokémon may be retyped only because they can. It might make sense for Gardevoir, but it doesn't make sense for Marill. There isn't any reason for Marill to be retyped.

 

[Beck]

If Fairy does something that the others can't, then that's fine. Fairy has its own identity. That's likely to happen.

Only Magnemite and Rotom's alternate forms were retyped (prior to Gen VI). Those made sense. Jigglypuff, Gardevoir, and Marill (especially Marill)... what? it seems like those 3 Pokemon being retyped were a case of "they didn't care". There are other Pokemon that they could've added because it would've made sense. Otherwise, I don't have a problem with it, and they could retcon it somehow.

It's unlikely that any moves will be retyped.

How is any Pokemon's retyping a case of "they didn't care?" Each Pokemon that received a retcon received it for a reason.

Are you sure? The Pokémon may be retyped only because they can. It might make sense for Gardevoir, but it doesn't make sense for Marill. There isn't any reason for Marill to be retyped.

Why is there no reason for Marill to be retyped? The developers didn't just spin a wheel while looking for Pokemon to be retyped, and watched as it landed on Marill. It was chosen, like those already shown, as well as those yet to be revealed, for a reason. Be it to buff/nerf the Pokemon, to retcon its image, or shine the spotlight in its direction once more, or for any more reasons GameFreak may have, I find it hard to believe that it was done without any thought.

 

[Aves]

Correlation does not imply causation.

I guess it's a good thing that I wasn't claiming that being nocturnal causes an animal to be evil, then. But certainly that belief seems to be the basis of the metaphor of nocturnal animals being evil.

Animals that are regarded as evil almost invariably behave in ways that can potentially harm or be inconvenient to humans. Usually, they are either potential food "stealers", like scavangers and predators, or potential direct threats, like predators and poisonous things. They are not considered evil for the mere fact of being nocturnal. Being diurnal does not prevent animals from this consideration, either.

You're just ignoring the nocturnal factor as part of the consideration and bringing up other factors. In fact your claim that the cause of animals being considered evil is because of competing with humans for resources is something that cannot be isolated from the fact that they're nocturnal.

It's a basic feature of just about every culture that things of the night are to be feared. Some things of the day are to be feared as well, but they don't have that blanket night time association added on. Many nocturnal animals don't, in fact, compete with humans but we still fear them.

Even if those animals were considered evil just for being nocturnal, they are chosen for the Dark type because they're evil. Being nocturnal is not necessary for being pokémonified as a dark type and it doesn't seem to be sufficient, either.

Fortunately, I didn't say either that dark types are all nocturnal nor that all nocturnal pokémon were dark types. I did say the implication of a dark type being nocturnal is different than another type being nocturnal.

I would say that quantities are rather relevant when making generalisations.

They are not, however, the only relevant factor. Hence qualitative weighing.

1. Umbreon is actually powered by light.

Oh, you mean the moon, the celestial object most strongly associated with the time of night?

2. This would make psychic type so clearly related to the sun, because of clear paradigm cases like Espeon.

Only after the fact of the type relation to dark. And still doesn't establish anything about psychic's relation to the sun as such.

Well, even holy angels -like in the ones that have not fallen- have a rather questionable morality, even by Judeo-Christian standards, so I wouldn't use this one point to differentate both concepts.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Angels are generally considered to be icons of goodness. Religious writers intended to portray angels as forces of goodness based on their own understanding of morality, even if that understanding is fucked up. Perhaps they're not upon more careful ethical consideration. Even then, though, I don't think you'd find many examples of angels themselves being morally questionable so much as the god they serve being questionable. But you don't even really need to put a detailed ethical analysis into fairies; they're much more blatantly ambiguous.

 

[LimitCrown]

Why is there no reason for Marill to be retyped? The developers didn't just spin a wheel while looking for Pokemon to be retyped, and watched as it landed on Marill. It was chosen, like those already shown, as well as those yet to be revealed, for a reason. Be it to buff/nerf the Pokemon, to retcon its image, or shine the spotlight in its direction once more, or for any more reasons GameFreak may have, I find it hard to believe that it was done without any thought.

To clarify my statement, for what reason would Marill be retconned into a fairy? Even though Marill is in the Fairy-egg group, many other Pokémon, including Pikachu, are there, but Gardevoir isn't. Marill isn't only in the Fairy egg group, so I don't think that it being in the Fairy egg group is the only reason or the most relevant reason.

@Aves Quantitative reasoning is the most relevant to things that can be counted. The number of nocturnal Pokémon or Pokémon derived from nocturnal animals is important.

 

[ange]

I think Marill's retype to Water/Fairy could come from Azumarill, which will most likely be Water/Fairy as well.

Azumarill is partially based on a rabbit (it is called the Aqua Rabbit Pokemon, after all), which are common creatures in folklore (including Japan) as well as being one of the twelve animals in the Chinese Zodiac. As the animals in the zodiac follows a 12-year cycle, so does the so called Five Elements (Wu Xing) within each of them. So, for example, every time it is the Year of the Rabbit, is bears one of the elemental signs (Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal or Water - the cycle follows that order). For example, from 3 February 2011 to 22 January 2012 it was the year of the Metal Rabbit.

So with that being said, every five Year of the Rabbit years, it the year of the Water Rabbit, and this is where Azumarill comes in. Combine rabbits as folklore creatures and the water element as well as some own imagination and I guess Azumarill could be seen as some sort of water spirit.

 

[LimitCrown]

Ehh...I guess. I don't know if that is what they were going for when they were changing Marill into a Water/Fairy type because both Marill and Azurill are mice. Pokémon changing their appearance to another animal is not unheard of.

EDIT: I almost forgot. The rat's fixed element for the year is Water, but the rabbit's fixed element for the year is Wood.

 

[Neptune's Disciple]

Ehh...I guess. I don't know if that is what they were going for when they were changing Marill into a Water/Fairy type because both Marill and Azurill are mice. Pokémon changing their appearance to another animal is not unheard of.

EDIT: I almost forgot. The rat's fixed element for the year is Water, but the rabbit's fixed element for the year is Wood.

I think Azumarill's classification as the Aqua Rabbit pokemon lands it pretty solidly as a rabbit. Marill, however, is based partly off a mouse as you said, and partly off a personal flotation device/beachball. My understanding of their retyping as Water/Fairy comes from their tendency to save drowning pokemon, making them, abstractly at least, water guardians, which fits in pretty well with one of the themes of fairies. Gardevoir also fits the guardian theme as it will guard its trainer with its life. The more abstract types (Psychic, Dragon, Dark, Ghost, and the new Fairy) tend to encompass a wide variety of themes and motifs within their pokemon that relate back to a series of overarching ideas about the type. More literal types (Water, Steel, Electric, Ice, Grass, Bug, Rock, Flying, Fire, Fighting, Ground, and Poison) tend to stick more to a single underlying theme or aptitude to their particular element. Steel and Rock types are typically made from or plated in metal/rock respectively, Electric types typically have a means to generate their own electricity and discharge it at all, Fighting types are typically physically strong and have a physical and mental aptitude for martial arts. The list goes on.

Long story short, I don't think we need to go on and on about tying Psychic, Dragon, Dark, Ghost, or Fairy types to a single, restrictive notion and rejecting all else outside of that notion. The types themselves are broad and slightly vague to enable GF to encompass a wide range of creatures from a mythological background.

 

[LimitCrown]

How does that explain Jigglypuff? It isn't really a guardian of anything, as far as I know. Shiftry could qualify as a guardian of the forest.

For the abstract types, I don't think that it is that hard to determine a theme that work for each one without being too restrictive, in my opinion.

 

[Mokoniki]

How does that explain Jigglypuff? It isn't really a guardian of anything, as far as I know. Shiftry could qualify as a guardian of the forest.

For the abstract types, I don't think that it is that hard to determine a theme that work for each one without being too restrictive, in my opinion.

To tie in with rabbits being parts of folklore, I assume that Jigglypuff being retyped is the same reason as the assumption about Marill stated earlier. It's evolved form is a rabbit.

 

[LimitCrown]

This would make more sense if the final evolved forms were retyped if that was the case. You can't determine what real-life animal Jigglypuff looks like, either. Besides, other Pokémon look like animals from folklore.