The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

[ange]

They only gave us a few examples, I'm 99% sure these are not the only ones. And besides, if Jigglypuff and Marill gets the Fairy-type, then I damn well don't see a reason why their evolved forms wouldn't.

 

[LimitCrown]

Sorry. I actually meant if only the final evolutions were retyped if that was the case.

 

[SUP3RN0VA]

If Fairy does something that the others can't, then that's fine. Fairy has its own identity. That's likely to happen.

Only Magnemite and Rotom's alternate forms were retyped (prior to Gen VI). Those made sense. Jigglypuff, Gardevoir, and Marill (especially Marill)... what? it seems like those 3 Pokemon being retyped were a case of "they didn't care". There are other Pokemon that they could've added because it would've made sense. Otherwise, I don't have a problem with it, and they could retcon it somehow.

It's unlikely that any moves will be retyped.

How is any Pokemon's retyping a case of "they didn't care?" Each Pokemon that received a retcon received it for a reason.

Are you sure? The Pokémon may be retyped only because they can. It might make sense for Gardevoir, but it doesn't make sense for Marill. There isn't any reason for Marill to be retyped.

Just because it doesn't make any sense to you, doesn't mean it never made any sense for GameFreak. I truly doubt GameFreak retyped Marill 'because they can.' I'm sure they have their reasons for each Pokemon they have currently retyped and may end up retyping in the future.

 

[LimitCrown]

Can you come up with any reasons at the moment?

 

[SUP3RN0VA]

Can you come up with any reasons at the moment?

Like I said, I'm sure GAMEFREAK has their reasons for which Pokemon they retyped. It could be any reason, what I'm saying is that just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it was done without any thought. It doesn't matter if you, myself, or anybody else can't think of a reason (even if we did, it may not even be that reason), it doesn't mean Gamefreak never had a reason.

 

[LimitCrown]

Fine then, Game Freak has a reason, not one that we know of.

Where did Marill's role as a guardian come from? I'm reading the Pokédex entries, but I don't see it anywhere. Is that even true?

 

[Neptune's Disciple]

How does that explain Jigglypuff? It isn't really a guardian of anything, as far as I know. Shiftry could qualify as a guardian of the forest.

For the abstract types, I don't think that it is that hard to determine a theme that work for each one without being too restrictive, in my opinion.

I didn't attempt to explain Jiggypuff in that post. To be honest I'm not sure why 'puff got retyped, I can only assume it has something to do with its aptitude for lullabies. And yes, I realise it is not the only pokemon that can learn sing, and I am also not suggesting that every pokemon that can learn sing will be retyped, what I am saying is that Sing in a move which employs a mythological power in a song which sends everyone that hears it to sleep (sounds pretty Fairy-like to me), and that Jigglypuff is the poster-child of that move.

Regarding your second point - I would argue that it is difficult to determine a singular theme that would work for each of the more abstract types without being too restrictive, and I'll use yourself as an example. For pages, yourself, Aves, and FaerieStar have been arguing vehemently about a single origin of the Dark type. Either that its base is only in acting maliciously, or that it also includes literal/abstract darkness - at least I'm assuming you're still arguing about it as I've been scrolling past the posts as I can't be bothered reading the same thing again and again. The fact that none of you can agree or give merit to the others' arguments means that there is likely more than one base for the dark type, perhaps one more heavily than the other, and that it encompasses several different ideas.

Lets look at Psychic as a quick example. Jirachi, Gothitelle, Deoxys, and Beheeyem are all psychic types with strong connections to space. Does this mean all psychic types therefore have a connection to space? No. Bronzong, Claydol, Jirachi, and Xatu have strong bases in cultrual mythology. Does that mean that all psychic types are therefore mythological? No. They are also not all super-intelligent, sentient beings. There is not a single underlying theme to every psychic type, but a combination of various factors and attributes that lend themselves to the different aspects of the psychic type. The examples I listed also don't mean that all space, mythological, or intelligent pokemon will be Psychic type, as there are several other types that can also encompass those themes, typically the abstract types I mentioned in my last post.

EDIT:

Fine then, Game Freak has a reason, not one that we know of.

Where did Marill's role as a guardian come from? I'm reading the Pokédex entries, but I don't see it anywhere. Is that even true?

It creates bubbles of air to save drowning pokemon, as per its Sapphire 'dex entry.

 

[FaerieStar]

Many nocturnal animals don't, in fact, compete with humans but we still fear them.

I said "considered evil", not feared. I can't think of any animal that is widely considered evil without being potentially harmful -or at least really annoying- in some way to the human being, honestly.

Even if those animals were considered evil just for being nocturnal, they are chosen for the Dark type because they're evil. Being nocturnal is not necessary for being pokémonified as a dark type and it doesn't seem to be sufficient, either.

Fortunately, I didn't say either that dark types are all nocturnal nor that all nocturnal pokémon were dark types.

No, you said that the nocturnal nature of real-world hyenas made the dark type clearly about literal darkness. (Well, you didn't said it as blatanly I think xD) I just explained that the nocturnality of any animal represented as a dark type can not be claimed to be the reason why they are dark type, since nocturnality is neither a necessary condition nor a sufficient condition for their pressence in the dark type.

I did say the implication of a dark type being nocturnal is different than another type being nocturnal.

And it certainly is, if you first assume that the dark type is about literal darkness.

I would say that quantities are rather relevant when making generalisations.

They are not, however, the only relevant factor. Hence qualitative weighing.

You did say that quantities were not relevant at all, though. When making a generalisation, the qualitative aspect is meaningless if you don't have a good amount of examples. You could said that Gryffindor represents wisdom and intelligence because Hermione Granger exists, if you give too much credit to quality and you forget about quantity.

1. Umbreon is actually powered by light.

Oh, you mean the moon, the celestial object most strongly associated with the time of night?

Yeah, that thing that represents the light in the darkness, ye know.

2. This would make psychic type so clearly related to the sun, because of clear paradigm cases like Espeon.
Only after the fact of the type relation to dark.

No. You can establish that Espeon's relation with day implies a relationship between psychic and light right after establishing that Umbreon's relation with night implies a relationship between dark and darkness. Or right before. I mean you can't deny one without denying the other.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Angels are generally considered to be icons of goodness.

And of evil, coincidentally.

Religious writers intended to portray angels as forces of goodness based on their own understanding of morality, even if that understanding is fucked up. Perhaps they're not upon more careful ethical consideration. Even then, though, I don't think you'd find many examples of angels themselves being morally questionable so much as the god they serve being questionable.

I do not need many examples to prove that not all angels were perfectly good.

But you don't even really need to put a detailed ethical analysis into fairies; they're much more blatantly ambiguous.

Angels might have been created to represent pure goodness, but in actual Judeo-Christian myths and beliefs, Angels are able to sin. All fallen angels were regular angels when they decided to disobey their boss. There are angels said to have raped humans, creating the Niphilim. There are stories about Gabriel himself making deals with Lucifer. Sure, all this things are not really backed-up by the Bible, but they're still common enough beliefs in (some) Judeo-Christian traditions.

 

[Envoy]

Jigglypuff could have been chosen (or at the very least, showcased) because of its marketability. It used to be a very, very, very popular Pokemon in Japan (hence its role in the anime and the Super Smash Bros. franchise.)

I'm almost certain that Jigglypuff, Marill, and Gardevoir aren't the only Pokemon getting reclassified as Fairy, but they are amongst the most marketable ones (all three of them were incredibly popular during their debut generation.) It makes sense, from a business standpoint, that GF would want to show them off.

As for the storytelling aspect, I think @Neptune's Disciple might be on to something with the lullaby theory. Some of the most prominent myths about fairies include their enchanting songs, and they do sometimes have strong ties to dreams (with some of the victims of the fairies believing they were dreaming.) Jigglypuff may not be the only Pokemon out there that learns Sing, but it does hold the strongest association with the move (similar to how Heracross holds the strongest association with Megahorn.) From this perspective, it makes perfect sense that Jigglypuff be retyped as Fairy.

@FaerieStar I am not exactly an authority on angelology, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read that exactly one third of God's angels rebelled against him (symbolic because Lucifer was one of God's top three angels, the others being Michael and...I want to say Gabriel? but it could be Rafael, anyway...) These angels were effectively banished from heaven and became fallen angels. Once Michael defeated Lucifer and condemned him and his to hell, they were deformed and transmutated into what we know as demons. So, if 1/3 of all angels were evil, and all of them underwent a transformation into what is, for all intents and purposes, another species, then the other 2/3 of the angels are, by default, good aligned. This would mean that, at least after the war in heaven, there is no such thing as an 'evil angel.' Granted, there are those who still consider demons to be angels, and some believe Lucifer himself still qualifies as an angel, so things do get muddled, but in general, I do believe that by most accounts, all (the remaining) angels are good aligned.

This, of course, only takes Judeo-Christian mythology into account, and does not factor angels (or the equivalent thereof) in other such mythologies.

On a related tangent, I've also read somewhere that angels were...ahem...ill equipped to rape humans. Though in fairness, I too, have read accounts of Nephilim, though I haven't heard anything about rape.

 

[LimitCrown]

I didn't attempt to explain Jiggypuff in that post. To be honest I'm not sure why 'puff got retyped, I can only assume it has something to do with its aptitude for lullabies. And yes, I realise it is not the only pokemon that can learn sing, and I am also not suggesting that every pokemon that can learn sing will be retyped, what I am saying is that Sing in a move which employs a mythological power in a song which sends everyone that hears it to sleep (sounds pretty Fairy-like to me), and that Jigglypuff is the poster-child of that move.

Regarding your second point - I would argue that it is difficult to determine a singular theme that would work for each of the more abstract types without being too restrictive, and I'll use yourself as an example. For pages, yourself, Aves, and FaerieStar have been arguing vehemently about a single origin of the Dark type. Either that its base is only in acting maliciously, or that it also includes literal/abstract darkness - at least I'm assuming you're still arguing about it as I've been scrolling past the posts as I can't be bothered reading the same thing again and again. The fact that none of you can agree or give merit to the others' arguments means that there is likely more than one base for the dark type, perhaps one more heavily than the other, and that it encompasses several different ideas.

Lets look at Psychic as a quick example. Jirachi, Gothitelle, Deoxys, and Beheeyem are all psychic types with strong connections to space. Does this mean all psychic types therefore have a connection to space? No. Bronzong, Claydol, Jirachi, and Xatu have strong bases in cultrual mythology. Does that mean that all psychic types are therefore mythological? No. They are also not all super-intelligent, sentient beings. There is not a single underlying theme to every psychic type, but a combination of various factors and attributes that lend themselves to the different aspects of the psychic type. The examples I listed also don't mean that all space, mythological, or intelligent pokemon will be Psychic type, as there are several other types that can also encompass those themes, typically the abstract types I mentioned in my last post.

For the Psychic-types, they have the ability to use their mind to distort space, to change reality, or to gather information without using the 5 senses. It's like the power of the mind, which is what I think the theme of Psychic is. To be honest, out of all of the more abstract types, Psychic seems to be one of the most abstract types.

The problem that I have with Dark supposedly being associated with darkness is that the 2 moves that seem to use literal darkness (Dark Void and Night Daze) were being emphasized by Aves, even though there are 29 Dark-type moves and the other moves' descriptions basically emphasize the unfair/"evil" aspect. Those 2 moves are signature moves for Darkrai and Zoroark, one of nightmares and one of illusions. Dark Void allows Darkrai to trap someone in a nightmare, while Night Daze is one of Zoroark's illusions. Those 2 two moves can both be considered evil because they're the means to "evil", in my opinion.

Fine then, Game Freak has a reason, not one that we know of.

Where did Marill's role as a guardian come from? I'm reading the Pokédex entries, but I don't see it anywhere. Is that even true?

It creates bubbles of air to save drowning pokemon, as per its Sapphire 'dex entry.

I'm surprised that it is the only Pokédex entry for Azumarill that emphasizes that. Marill and Azurill's Pokédex entries don't say this at all! It may be like how, according to the Pokédex entries, Mew was believed to be the ancestor of all Pokémon until Arceus was known.

 

[Dakhem Uaid]

Gore, are there only 29 Dark type moves? Why is Bite dark type?

 

[LimitCrown]

Gore, are there only 29 Dark type moves? Why is Bite dark type?

It's a dirty tactic. For example, if someone grabbed you, instead of trying to escape, you bite them so that they will let go of you.

 

[Aves]

I said "considered evil", not feared. I can't think of any animal that is widely considered evil without being potentially harmful -or at least really annoying- in some way to the human being, honestly.

The latter implies the former.

No, you said that the nocturnal nature of real-world hyenas made the dark type clearly about literal darkness. (Well, you didn't said it as blatanly I think xD) I just explained that the nocturnality of any animal represented as a dark type can not be claimed to be the reason why they are dark type, since nocturnality is neither a necessary condition nor a sufficient condition for their pressence in the dark type.

My claim wasn't that nocturnality is (the only) reason why a representation is given the dark type, though. A dark type pokémon being nocturnal contributes to its overall theme.

And it certainly is, if you first assume that the dark type is about literal darkness.

No, the implication comes from support from other data.

You did say that quantities were not relevant at all, though. When making a generalisation, the qualitative aspect is meaningless if you don't have a good amount of examples. You could said that Gryffindor represents wisdom and intelligence because Hermione Granger exists, if you give too much credit to quality and you forget about quantity.

The reason why specific ratios associated with the dark type in the game of pokémon is not relevant is because pokémon is not somehow completely removed from outside reference and background knowledge. If you just count something outside of qualitative context you will make category mistakes and other errors.

Yeah, that thing that represents the light in the darkness, ye know.

That doesn't seem to be the way it is interpreted in Umbreon's case. Perhaps with Cresselia. But there's certainly more than one way to look at the moon.

No. You can establish that Espeon's relation with day implies a relationship between psychic and light right after establishing that Umbreon's relation with night implies a relationship between dark and darkness. Or right before. I mean you can't deny one without denying the other.

Espeon's design as a counterpart to Umbreon is certainly the reason why it is associated with sunlight. You can't find any connections between psychic and the sun in generation I, before the dark type was introduced. Nor is psychism in other media generally associated with the sun or light.

I do not need many examples to prove that not all angels were perfectly good.

I don't see how I was saying at all that they were, so that would be a moot point.

Angels might have been created to represent pure goodness, but in actual Judeo-Christian myths and beliefs, Angels are able to sin. All fallen angels were regular angels when they decided to disobey their boss. There are angels said to have raped humans, creating the Niphilim. There are stories about Gabriel himself making deals with Lucifer. Sure, all this things are not really backed-up by the Bible, but they're still common enough beliefs in (some) Judeo-Christian traditions.

Yeah, so?

 

[Jenneta]

I'm just going to slide into this conversation for a little bit...*slides in*
But I don't know what to think of this new Fairy type. In my opinion, it's a bit ridiculous. I mean, Fairy is SE against Dragon? Say whaaat? I don't get that at all...
The fairy type fits in with Sylveon, yes, but I don't like it. It's a weird idea...
*sigh* I guess I'll have to wait until X and Y come out to really see it's purpose for it. =/ Just that whole Fairy is SE against Dragon thing...It doesn't make sense. D: But that's my opinion.
*slides out of conversation*

 

[LimitCrown]

@Aves You should realize that one of Umbreon's moves referenced in the Pokédex is Moonlight and, ironically, it is at its most effective during sunny weather!

 

[Aves]

I'm aware of that. Game mechanics and game flavor are usually not totally consistent with one another in any game.

 

[The Outrage]

@Aves You should realize that one of Umbreon's moves referenced in the Pokédex is Moonlight and, ironically, it is at its most effective during sunny weather!

Not really ironic when a sunny day implies clear clouds, so when day becomes night, it's a cloudless night allowing the moon to shine unobscured. The moon also simply reflects the sun's rays so yeah....not at all unexpected.

But yeah, Umbreon represents the light shining through the darkness more than actually darkness incarnate given that its most notable feature (other than spraying poison sweat) is glowing rings.

 

[LimitCrown]

That's the point. Espeon learns Morning Sun while Umbreon learns Moonlight. Both moves are at their full power during sunny weather and are considered to be the Pokémon's respective signature moves.

 

[Neptune's Disciple]

For the Psychic-types, they have the ability to use their mind to distort space, to change reality, or to gather information without using the 5 senses. It's like the power of the mind, which is what I think the theme of Psychic is. To be honest, out of all of the more abstract types, Psychic seems to be one of the most abstract types.

The problem that I have with Dark supposedly being associated with darkness is that the 2 moves that seem to use literal darkness (Dark Void and Night Daze) were being emphasized by Aves, even though there are 29 Dark-type moves and the other moves' descriptions basically emphasize the unfair/"evil" aspect. Those 2 moves are signature moves for Darkrai and Zoroark, one of nightmares and one of illusions. Dark Void allows Darkrai to trap someone in a nightmare, while Night Daze is one of Zoroark's illusions. Those 2 two moves can both be considered evil because they're the means to "evil", in my opinion.

You just listed several different concepts which all relate to the Psychic type, so why is it so difficult to see that Dark/Fairy/any other type would also encompass several different themes?

Fine then, Game Freak has a reason, not one that we know of.

Where did Marill's role as a guardian come from? I'm reading the Pokédex entries, but I don't see it anywhere. Is that even true?

It creates bubbles of air to save drowning pokemon, as per its Sapphire 'dex entry.

I'm surprised that it is the only Pokédex entry for Azumarill that emphasizes that. Marill and Azurill's Pokédex entries don't say this at all! It may be like how, according to the Pokédex entries, Mew was believed to be the ancestor of all Pokémon until Arceus was known.

I don't see how mentioning a behaviour in Azumarill's pokedex entry has anything to do with the ancestry of all pokemon?

@Aves You should realize that one of Umbreon's moves referenced in the Pokédex is Moonlight and, ironically, it is at its most effective during sunny weather!

The Japanese name for Sunny Day is Clear Sky, meaning that it would have the same effect at night as it does during the day

 

[LimitCrown]

You just listed several different concepts which all relate to the Psychic type, so why is it so difficult to see that Dark/Fairy/any other type would also encompass several different themes?

Fine then, Game Freak has a reason, not one that we know of.

Where did Marill's role as a guardian come from? I'm reading the Pokédex entries, but I don't see it anywhere. Is that even true?

It creates bubbles of air to save drowning pokemon, as per its Sapphire 'dex entry.

I'm surprised that it is the only Pokédex entry for Azumarill that emphasizes that. Marill and Azurill's Pokédex entries don't say this at all! It may be like how, according to the Pokédex entries, Mew was believed to be the ancestor of all Pokémon until Arceus was known.

@Aves You should realize that one of Umbreon's moves referenced in the Pokédex is Moonlight and, ironically, it is at its most effective during sunny weather!

The Japanese name for Sunny Day is Clear Sky, meaning that it would have the same effect at night as it does during the day[/QUOTE]

All of those concepts deal with the use of the mind. The theme would be mind=power. That is as basic as I can make the theme.

The move works by intensifying the sun; therefore, the light is also intensified. The effects would still become prominent regardless of the time of day.

EDIT: The point about my comparison of Azumarill to Mew is that the information isn't always perfect. This is why the Pokédex entries are sometimes different between games.