The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

[LimitCrown]

It depends on whether some of its Pokémon are retyped.

 

[GiraFragMich]

yes, besides Cherrim I can't see any retcons of Sinnoh-based evolution families though

 

[bluestarfish]

Any of you guys think that dragon is weak againts fairy type is just stupid?

It feels like they selling fairy type too much, and dragon type is good because they have only 2 weakness

Well of course they are selling the fairy type, it's a new type why wouldn't they make a big deal out of it? As far as dragon being weak against them, even setting aside that they came up with the typing for the soul purpose of trying to re-balance dragon a bit it kind of makes sense if you consider that there are stories where dragons are defeated with the help of fae magic

 

[DoctorWhy]

I thought about something else: Kanto has no native Dark-types, do you think Sinnoh won't have any native Fairy-types?

But Kanto did get a native Steel type, the second new type in gen 2. So that's basically irrelevant. And even if that statement was relevant, Unova would be in the same position.

 

[Aves]

"Being feared" does not imply "being considered evil". People that fear bees rarely consider them evil, for instance.

That's not a valid analogy considering the context of this little digression is anthropological speculation on the origins of cultural ideas. In primitive cultures, it certainly is the case that things that are commonly feared are associated with evil. And darkness, and things associated with darkness, are commonly feared in many cultures as such.

No. The implication only makes sense if you assume that the dark type is about literal darkness. You can assume that the dark type is about literal darkness based on support from other data, but you have to assume it.

Congratulations, you basically just stated that data is theory-laden.

Generalisations are made when there's a substantial quantity of some quality. I never say the qualitative aspect were irrelevant. You need something to quantify. You DID say that quantity is irrelevant, though.

That's not necessarily how generalizations work at all, and even if it were, in-game quantities about the dark type do not specifically pertain to my claims about the dark type in reference to out-of-game content, hence not relevant.

Uh? They evolve from exposure to moonlight. What is wrong with my interpretation? I already know it's not the way you interpret it.

I don't think the idea of Umbreon is that it's supposed to be a "light in the darkness," which seems to suggest hope as a metaphor. As a dark type Umbreon does not seem to represent that. Furthermore, the moon and moonlight in their association with the night are often tied to concepts like illusion and madness. Even though the moon casts off light, it's light in a dark world.

No, both evolutions evolve how they do to showcase the new features included in gold and silver (happiness and the time of the day). They associated Espeon to the Sun and Umbreon with the Moon.

That doesn't establish my claim is not also true.

Not with the sun, maybe, but certainly I can find connections between psychic and light.

Not really for our purposes.

I don't see how this matters.

If we added content to another type which is novel or out of place compared to other media (e.g., let's say we add a subtheme of, say, robots to the fire type), we might say this addition goes against the point of a type, which is grouping things together by a familiar category. The idea of something being psychic has no connection to the idea of light. Placing light themes under the type is a weird divergence of the category from its normal theme. It also prevents the light theme from being recognized in its own right by its own grouping.

So angels are not always good. o.o

I never said they were.

The basic distinction I was making between angels and fairies is that angels, as angels, evoke a moral quality. They are, in some sense, supposed to be good. And when they're not, it turns out they end up being just evil. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of middle ground possible for the angel concept. But fairies, as fairies, are more or less supposed to be morally ambiguous.

Anyway, I don't know why you're still going on about this. If you want to go ahead and categorically deny any connection whatsoever between the dark type and darkness, be my guest.

 

[Almonds]

This discussion about Dark and Light was still going on?

If they were going to introduce a new type, they would've done it when they introduced Fairy. So no chances of new types, and certainly not a light type.

 

[LimitCrown]

I stopped caring after a while.

 

[FaerieStar]

Anyway, I don't know why you're still going on about this.

My apologies, next time I read your opinions about my thoughts, I'll just keep to myself whatever I have to say about yours.

 

[SUP3RN0VA]

Anyway, I don't know why you're still going on about this.

My apologies, next time I read your opinions about my thoughts, I'll just keep to myself whatever I have to say about yours.

I find it quite humourous that little 'conversation' lasted as long as it did. I find it more humourous he said he didn't know why you're still going on about it, when he himself continued and still went on with it.

 

[Stratelier]

Have any of you guys seen this thread on GameSpot? A guy claims that according to the damage formula he got from Smogon, the amount of damage Gardevoir caused on Hydreigon - 100bp in Japanese video, and 96bp in the English one - couldn't match for a 2x SE, yet for a 4x SE both of them fit.

I hardly know about game formulae, so you better have a look by yourselves and let us know your thoughts. Link bellow:

Dark-type confirmed to be weak to Fairy-type! - GameSpot.com

They are going on an assumption that rounding down to the whole number prior to the final damage outcome means certain amounts of damage just can't be dealt. I think it's safe to call that suspect simply because rounding errors occur regardless of levels or stats.

For example: According to the DPP damage calculator here...
* Normally-effective attacks can deal any damage, unless STAB is included in which case it skips every 3rd number (i.e. cannot deal out 2, 5, 8, 11, etc. damage).
* For a 2x attack, damage is always an even number. If including STAB, the calculation skips every third multiple (i.e. can't deal out exactly 4, 10, 16, 22, etc. damage)
* For a 4x attack, damage is always a multiple of 4 (8, 12, 16, etc.). If including STAB, skips every third multiple (i.e. can't deal out exactly 8, 20, 32, 44, etc. damage)

Smogon's argument is that the Japanese video shows Gardevoir hitting Hydreigon for an exact 100 points damage, which is simply impossible if the above points (number two in particular) are correct; 100 points damage can only occur without STAB, or if the attack is 4x effective.

Correspondingly, in a low-level battle it should be possible for e.g. a Pidove to Gust a Sewaddle for exactly 4 or 12 points damage but not 8 points (due to an internal rounding error generated by STAB).

Anyone want to try verifying this? Go grab yourself some Mons like a Purrloin, Venipede, and Sewaddle. Then hunt up some wild Pidove and record how much Gust damage they take.

[EDIT] Okay, after the world's LONGEST Pidove vs. Swadloon battle, here are my results:
- Wild Lv.8 Pidove
- Using a caught Lv.22 Swadloon
- Of 35 Gusts used in battle, one of them was a critical hit and did 24 points damage; two or three did 16 points damage (not critical hit), and the rest (the other 30 or so) always inflicted just 4 points damage.

All damage was in multiples of four, matching Smogon's speculations. However, the damage spread (outside critical hits) was 4 and 16 only (no 8 or 12!), which does not match either of the damage calculators linked by Smogon.

This is too early to draw conclusions from, but it does look like (a) rounding errors do exist somewhere prior to the final damage report, and (b) Smogon's calculators are not 100% accurate.

 

[Gnomowladny]

I thought about something else: Kanto has no native Dark-types, do you think Sinnoh won't have any native Fairy-types?

What do you mean?
Kanto has Hondour and Murkrow, and we already know that Marill and Gardevoir, which are very much native to Sinnoh, are going to be retyped to Fairy.

 

[GiraFragMich]

Maybe native is the wrong term. I mean Fairy-types "originating" from Sinnoh or Unova.

 

[Bolt Strike]

Kanto has Hondour and Murkrow, and we already know that Marill and Gardevoir, which are very much native to Sinnoh, are going to be retyped to Fairy.

I don't think any of the Johto Pokemon found in HGSS can be considered Kanto natives.

Either way, though, they'll likely fix when they remake a game by adding more families from those lines to balance things out. So if it turns out that there aren't enough Fairies in the regional dex, they'll add some.

 

[GoldFromNewBarkTown]

About Poison being super effective against water, i think that'd be the opposite. The water should dilute the poison, making it lose it's effect.

 

[LimitCrown]

Poison can also refer to pollutants, so it could be strong against Water for that reason.

 

[GoldFromNewBarkTown]

Poison can also refer to pollutants, so it could be strong against Water for that reason.

Hm... not wrong, but if the water is dirty it's still effective, for example, if a pokémon take a water gun of clean or dirty water, doesn't matter, the effect would be the same (I think).

 

[Neptune's Disciple]

Poison can also refer to pollutants, so it could be strong against Water for that reason.

Hm... not wrong, but if the water is dirty it's still effective, for example, if a pokémon take a water gun of clean or dirty water, doesn't matter, the effect would be the same (I think).

Which is why it would make logical sense for Water and Poison to be super effective against one another, however that wouldn't help Poison's cause at all. The best bet to give poison a boost would be to increase its defensive capabilities by adding some resistances (Fairy and Ghost would be reasonable in my mind), while having it strong against Fairy. It would then give it two strengths and six resistances, meaning its competitive viability would be increased significantly, but not by any means broken.

Does it matter if there are no 'native' Fairy types in Sinnoh? Cherubi and Cherrim may very well be retyped, and people seem to expect Finneon and Lumineon to be retyped. Sinnoh introduced the fewest new pokemon for a region, with a large number of pokemon related to 'mons from previous generations (25 out of 106 total for the gen). With a small number of pokemon unique to that generation, it would make sense that fewer would be retyped than those from a larger generation, such as gens I, III, and V. I would also expect Gen II to have less fairy retypes vs gens I, III, and V due to the smaller number of pokemon introduced (100 vs 151, 135, and 156 respectively), however it is worth noting that a reasonable number of Gen II pokemon possess potentially fairy-esque qualities, such as being small and cute, or mystical.

 

[DoctorWhy]

Poison can also refer to pollutants, so it could be strong against Water for that reason.

Hm... not wrong, but if the water is dirty it's still effective, for example, if a pokémon take a water gun of clean or dirty water, doesn't matter, the effect would be the same (I think).

Which is maybe why they're currently neutral, since on one hand: pollutants killing fish or on the other: water diluting poison.

 

[Stratelier]

Poison can also refer to pollutants, so it could be strong against Water for that reason.

Hm... not wrong, but if the water is dirty it's still effective, for example --

-- Surf vs. Muddy Water.

 

[DoctorWhy]

Which is why it would make logical sense for Water and Poison to be super effective against one another, however that wouldn't help Poison's cause at all.

Which is why I think neutral is fine for now.

Different type topic: I've never really been a fan of Grass's weakness to poison. Yes, there are herbicides and such, but many plants like in swampy areas filter out toxic substances and resist them. I've also never quite understood Grass's weakness to Flying either...

Also, I don't think that Rock should be weak to Grass. I think if Grass lost one weakness (either to Poison or Flying, but if Poison then Poison should gain another advantage) then losing its advantage to Rock would be fine. Personally, I think Grass's advantage against Rock is one of the worst.