The Mega Sceptile and Mega Swampert Thread

[UB-01 Kenobi]

Uh, it sounds like you agree with me - I was speaking up in defense of Dark type, saying that it definitely has a bunch of advantages over Ghost that mean it is on the same level or slightly better as an offensive type.

I guess its technically true that I agree with you. It's just my final conclusion that differs. Whereas you conclude neither is substantially better as your final assessment, my conclusion is basically that Ghost is only the preferred move for Ghost types whereas other Pokemon can find better use in un-STAB'd dark moves. Ghost is a lot like Dragon was. We love its amazing neutral coverage but its actually not that great on anything that doesn't get STAB on it.

Oh yeah, sure! Dark coverage>Ghost coverage in an ideal world, but in reality, there's only 1 usable, non-signature special dark attack, and Shadow Ball has better distribution than Dark Pulse so you see stuff like 'Zam, Gardevoir, Reuniclus, etc running Shadow Ball while physical attackers get stuff like Knock Off, pursuit, Crunch, Night Slash, so-on and so forth. Thus, Ghost gets points as an offensive type as it has better moves on the special end of the spectrum. Anyways, to avoid being off-topic: like I mentioned, MSwampert will have trouble due to its lack of boosting moves, but it does get 1: Curse. After a Curse, it still outspeeds +Spe Base 95s in the rain. I wouldn't use it myself, but I guess that's at least something.

 

[The Outrage]

MSwampert will have trouble due to its lack of boosting moves, but it does get 1: Curse. After a Curse, it still outspeeds +Spe Base 95s in the rain. I wouldn't use it myself, but I guess that's at least something.

That's the same issue I raised earlier--it has no boosting moves outside of Curse, which is completely counterproductive to its ability. Of course, I'm wondering whether GF cares considering they had M-Swampert use Hammer Arm in one of the promotional shots in the game. It's like their marketing strategy is "Look, we've made it bulkier and faster so now you can afford to slow it down!"

 

[Envoy]

Excuse me what do you mean by too slow to sweep effectively? You do realize that even if MSwampert had the exact same base speed as it has now, in Rain it would outspeed every Pokémon barring Deoxys-S and Scarfers up to base 95 speed, and if it got only a +10 boost it would outspeed every unboosted Pokémon and Scarfers up to +Spe 108 (Terrakion). A + 62 Spe boost would let it Speed tie +Spe Scarf Deoxys-S, but now I'm being silly. What Swampert REALLY needs is Swords Dance, as its power will likely be underwhelming with no tiem and no boosting moves, but I would not be surprised if Swampert makes OU - he was an OU staple until power creep caught up with him in BWB2W2, and the Mega might be just the ticket to put him back into that spot.

I'm sorry, I should have clarified, I meant too slow to sweep outside of rain. Why? Because rain is completely irrelevant right now. After the weather nerf, Politoed's shortcomings became more apparent and it and Ninetales both fell into disuse. The only reason Sun is still relevant is because of MegaZard Y. Rain, as of right now, has no saving grace. Thus, whoever wants to use Swampert in OU will have to do so in spite of its ability, not because of it. It's kind of like how Solar Power is all but useless on MDoom in UU.

However, now that you bring it up, even in Rain (of which it only has a maximum of 8 turns to sweep at a time,) why would one use MPert (with its lack of boosting moves and inability to hold a Life Orb or a Choice Band) over things like Kingdra, Kabutops, and Ludicolo? Especially when it spends a mega slot that could otherwise go to another Pokemon like Venusaur, Manectric, or even Sceptile? I'm not saying Swampert is useless, much less so in Rain, but it is not a de facto choice for Rain either. Without Rain to boost its speed (and I highly doubt Swampert will singlehandedly revive Rain like Charizard did Sun,) MPert is just an inferior MGyara or MStoise. Of course, I could be proven absolutely wrong and GF could spend all 100 points on its Base Speed or something crazy, but I'm basing this all on Pert keeping its same Speed.

On the subject of Sceptile, wouldn't Aggron be a good partner for it? Its Rock STAB takes out most of MTile's weaknesses while also resisting them due to its Steel typing (Bug, Ice, and Flying are all resisted while Poison is straight up nullified) and in return MTile resists Water and Ground moves that plague Aggron. It also has the advantage of getting super effective STAB on Fairy Pokemon and resisting that weakness as well.

 

[The Outrage]

However, now that you bring it up, even in Rain (of which it only has a maximum of 8 turns to sweep at a time,) why would one use MPert (with its lack of boosting moves and inability to hold a Life Orb or a Choice Band) over things like Kingdra, Kabutops, and Ludicolo? Especially when it spends a mega slot that could otherwise go to another Pokemon like Venusaur, Manectric, or even Sceptile? I'm not saying Swampert is useless, much less so in Rain, but it is not a de facto choice for Rain either. Without Rain to boost its speed (and I highly doubt Swampert will singlehandedly revive Rain like Charizard did Sun,) MPert is just an inferior MGyara or MStoise. Of course, I could be proven absolutely wrong and GF could spend all 100 points on its Base Speed or something crazy, but I'm basing this all on Pert keeping its same Speed.

I doubt anyone is going to argue that Swampert is going to bring back rain (it could if it got Drizzle, but it doesn't). I don't know about your assessment comparing it as an inferior Mega Blastoise--when there weren't Megas, Swampert seemed to get more usage than Blastoise ever did. Swampert, at no point, had Life Orb as a common held item--it's either Leftovers for defensive or Choice Band for pure offense.

With that said, Mega Swampert only needs an increase of ~40 - 45 points in attack to make up for a Life Orb boost, and with a 100/90/90 defensive spread even before Mega Evolution, I find it hard to believe that Swampert would be considered as absolutely inferior. Let's even assume we waste 20 points on SpA (because let's face it, GF will), that's 35 - 40 points that can be redistributed to its defenses while maintaining similar strength to LO Swampert. Swampert never had a good ability in the first place so it's essentially a Swampert with a recoil-less LO boost and better defenses.

Let's not forget the only reason Mega Blastoise is even good is because of its updated moveset. We've yet to see what's in store for Mega Swampert in the "new moves" department.

As for Gyarados--it is one of those Pokemon that functions fairly well without Mega Evolution. Given that we can have a M-Gyarados that benefits from an attack boost even without Dragon Dance, thanks to Moxie, or benefits from Intimidate, its kind of hard to say that it isn't better than Swampert. With that said, Mega Swampert only having a grass weakness is still an advantage considering Mega Gyarados gains a weakness to Fighting and Fairy. It's also clearly better in Doubles which seems to be what was on Game Freak's minds when making these two Megas.

 

[Zeb]

I'm sorry, I should have clarified, I meant too slow to sweep outside of rain. Why? Because rain is completely irrelevant right now. After the weather nerf, Politoed's shortcomings became more apparent and it and Ninetales both fell into disuse. The only reason Sun is still relevant is because of MegaZard Y. Rain, as of right now, has no saving grace.

Rain teams still see a good amount of use. Yes, they aren't dominant like last generation, but they still exist and work well. So I honestly don't know what you're talking about. Rain is still much better than sun and sun teams aren't relevant at all even with Charizard (unless we're talking doubles).

However, now that you bring it up, even in Rain (of which it only has a maximum of 8 turns to sweep at a time,) why would one use MPert (with its lack of boosting moves and inability to hold a Life Orb or a Choice Band) over things like Kingdra, Kabutops, and Ludicolo?

We don't know how they are going to allocate the stat boosts or any other changes it's going to get, so this is a silly question at this point. Water/Ground is a great typing and it already has awesome stats before the 100 point boost. Let's just say it gets 100 / 150 (+40) / 120 (+30) / 95 (+10) / 100 (+10) / 70 (+10), do you really think that it's going to be a bad rain attacker? (Biggest boost physically because just look how bulky it looks.)

Without Rain to boost its speed (and I highly doubt Swampert will singlehandedly revive Rain like Charizard did Sun,) MPert is just an inferior MGyara or MStoise.

Mega Swampert isn't going to be comparable to Mega Blastoise. Blastoise is first and foremost used as a Rapid Spinner, and it's also a special attacker. Mega Swampert is going to be neither of these and also has a better typing (with secondary STAB EQ which is always handy). They are both bulky waters, yes, but that's where their similarities end. Also Charizard hasn't revived sun at all since it uses sun for itself and not to support a sun team like Ninetales did.

You're doing the same thing people are doing with Mega Sableye, saying how bad it's going to be when we don't know enough about it. How about let's wait and see before declaring it to be terrible.

For what it's worth, I don't see it being amazing (like Kanga and the rest), but I don't think it's going to be bad. Like at all.

 

[Envoy]

I doubt anyone is going to argue that Swampert is going to bring back rain (it could if it got Drizzle, but it doesn't). I don't know about your assessment comparing it as an inferior Mega Blastoise--when there weren't Megas, Swampert seemed to get more usage than Blastoise ever did. Swampert, at no point, had Life Orb as a common held item--it's either Leftovers for defensive or Choice Band for pure offense.

Actually, in Gen V UU, after Swampert's drop, Blastoise was used consistently (and considerably) more, if memory serves (which, in fairness, it may not. I'm a little rusty on the Gen V UU statistics.)

With that said, Mega Swampert only needs an increase of ~40 - 45 points in attack to make up for a Life Orb boost, and with a 100/90/90 defensive spread even before Mega Evolution, I find it hard to believe that Swampert would be considered as absolutely inferior. Let's even assume we waste 20 points on SpA (because let's face it, GF will), that's 35 - 40 points that can be redistributed to its defenses while maintaining similar strength to LO Swampert. Swampert never had a good ability in the first place so it's essentially a Swampert with a recoil-less LO boost and better defenses.

I didn't mean to imply Swampy would be absolutely inferior and I apologize if it came out that way. What I meant was simply that It would compete with Blastoise for a team slot as the two play similarly and Blasty has a 135 Sp. Atk with Mega Launcher boosted Aura Sphere, Dragon Pulse, Dark Pulse, and Water Pulse. Blasty also has the advantage of being specially oriented and the strongest Water type moves (Hydro Pump, Water Spout) are both special. It's a small boost, but worth noting. Also, in terms of BP, Mega Launcher Water Pulse > Waterfall. Blasty also has better speed (again, assuming Swampy's stays the same.)

Swampy does still have a niche we haven't discussed yet, though: it's ability to set up Stealth Rock. With enough Physical bulk, I could see him as the premier Rocks setter in the game. I'm not saying he's useless by any stretch, I just don't think he'll be OU worthy as of yet. I do think he'll be able to wreak quite a bit of havoc in UU though, along with Sceptile.

Of course, this is all preliminary speculation. We still don't know it's stats or new movepool (or even if it gets a new movepool, for that matter,) so my opinion is likely to change. It's just that as of what I know right now, I'm not confident it can stand up to other Megas or other OU threats. I look forward to be proven wrong, though.

As for Gyarados--it is one of those Pokemon that functions fairly well without Mega Evolution. Given that we can have a M-Gyarados that benefits from an attack boost even without Dragon Dance, thanks to Moxie, or benefits from Intimidate, its kind of hard to say that it isn't better than Swampert. With that said, Mega Swampert only having a grass weakness is still an advantage considering Mega Gyarados gains a weakness to Fighting and Fairy. It's also clearly better in Doubles which seems to be what was on Game Freak's minds when making these two Megas.

MGyara also regains it's weakness to Grass, but don't overlook the sheer utility of Mold Breaker.

I do agree that, at a glance, Swampy (and Sceptile, for that matter) is better suited for the Doubles Metagame, but I have painfully limited experience with that play style so I don't feel comfortable commenting on it.

 

[The Outrage]

Swampy does still have a niche we haven't discussed yet, though: it's ability to set up Stealth Rock.

I knew I was forgetting something. Typing that, I was thinking to myself "Swampert has something going for it in the support department, but I can't remember what...."
It's probably because I don't have access to it

MGyara also regains it's weakness to Grass, but don't overlook the sheer utility of Mold Breaker.

I keep forgetting its ability until the Earthquake it hits me.

I do agree that, at a glance, Swampy (and Sceptile, for that matter) is better suited for the Doubles Metagame, but I have painfully limited experience with that play style so I don't feel comfortable commenting on it.

While Politoed's weakness may have become more obvious in Singles, the little frog is still somewhat of a pain in Doubles. I don't see too many Rain teams but its not entirely pointless in Doubles. Though, to be perfectly honest, the best used Politoed I've seen didn't even bother with a Rain team--it just used Perish Song and Mega Gengar to pick off my teammates.

 

[jnbada123]

http://www.pokemonrubysapphire.com/en-us/pokemon/starter-pokemon/starter-pokemon
they gave sceptile lightning rod
i quit

We already have the Psychic/Fighting/Dark core with the Kalos trio. Why do we need it with the Hoenn trio as well?

In my opinion, Kalos's trio is kinda messed up in this aspect. In Kalos, Chesnaught has a double-weakness against Delphox, and Greninja has a double-weakness versus Chesnaught, but it performs 4x more damage to Delphox.
Here instead, you get the Grass type be Psychic, and now it'd be able to overcome its weakness against the Fire/Fighting type Pokémon, who would also overcome its weakness against the now Water/Dark type, who would be able to resist damage from the Grass/Psychic starter thanks to its Dark-typing.

I hope you understood

This is exactly why i wanted grass/dark starter in Kalos and water/fighting starter. It would make the starter decision not matter against each other, given that each starter would stand a chance just from a typing perspective against its weakness. But instead game freak decided to continue to stack the deck in favor of certain starters over others

People are trying so hard to find flaws for mega sceptile. People were saying mega mawile would be garbage too because you had to switch it in before getting the mega's bulk and that that was way too hard but it's OU anyway. As for the quad weakness Charizard and Talonflame both have a quad weakness while being top OU and that's a weakness to rock out of all things. A quad weakness to ice and fighting never stopped garchomp and tyranitar respectively either.

The difference is that T-tar and Garchomp both have abilities that actually function in a way that makes sense for them. If Sceptile's ability remains the same, anybody running a Sceptile will be telegraphing their strategy before the battle even begins. I'm extremely bummed about this mega because the dragon typing is more of a liability to sceptile than an asset. It creates more weaknesses than resistances and he can't even pick up Draco Meteor to capitalize on his typing as well as the Sp. Atk stat buff. In my opinion if they wanted to make Sceptile a viable choice when compared to the other starters, they would have adjusted him to be more of a physical attacker so he could capitalize on his more diverse physical move pool. They would have given him a different secondary type or none at all and given him an ability that he can make use of. Sure the lightning will buff his sp. atk but the hoops you have to jump through to trigger this are pretty convoluted to be able to pull it off even semi-reliably in a battle against anything other than in-game NPCs. If they wanted Sceptile to be any good they would have gone in that direction more so than giving him a typing he can't use and an ability he can make even less use of. But the developers over at GF are probably smarter about game design than I am, so we can surmise that they don't want Sceptile to be comparable. I'm convinced at this point that GF hates sceptile or enjoy beating up on this guy. I can't really think of any buffs to Sceptile that this mega makes except for a stat buff. In short, there is almost no reason from an analytical standpoint to choose Treecko as the starter. Sceptile's move pool and stats are contradictory, its mega typing makes it weaker, and its mega ability is worse than a waste.

I am disappointed in game freak and I hope this crime against Treecko is remedied before the release.

 

[UB-01 Kenobi]

I've been thinking about something - since Primal Kyogre is very specifically not a Mega Evolution, can you have a Primal Pokémon AND a Mega on the same team? If so, and if Primal Kyogre gets Gen V Drizzle as its Ability as Pokémon.com seems to hint and many have speculated, MSwampert might be usable in Ubers, especially if like Bulk Up or something is added to its movepool.

 

[jnbada123]

I've been thinking about something - since Primal Kyogre is very specifically not a Mega Evolution, can you have a Primal Pokémon AND a Mega on the same team? If so, and if Primal Kyogre gets Gen V Drizzle as its Ability as Pokémon.com seems to hint and many have speculated, MSwampert might be usable in Ubers, especially if like Bulk Up or something is added to its movepool.

I really doubt this will happen but I hope it does anyway! You make a good point that it's not mega evolution but I don't know that game freak will see it the same way.

 

[Envoy]

The difference is that T-tar and Garchomp both have abilities that actually function in a way that makes sense for them. If Sceptile's ability remains the same, anybody running a Sceptile will be telegraphing their strategy before the battle even begins. I'm extremely bummed about this mega because the dragon typing is more of a liability to sceptile than an asset. It creates more weaknesses than resistances and he can't even pick up Draco Meteor to capitalize on his typing as well as the Sp. Atk stat buff. In my opinion if they wanted to make Sceptile a viable choice when compared to the other starters, they would have adjusted him to be more of a physical attacker so he could capitalize on his more diverse physical move pool. They would have given him a different secondary type or none at all and given him an ability that he can make use of. Sure the lightning will buff his sp. atk but the hoops you have to jump through to trigger this are pretty convoluted to be able to pull it off even semi-reliably in a battle against anything other than in-game NPCs. If they wanted Sceptile to be any good they would have gone in that direction more so than giving him a typing he can't use and an ability he can make even less use of. But the developers over at GF are probably smarter about game design than I am, so we can surmise that they don't want Sceptile to be comparable. I'm convinced at this point that GF hates sceptile or enjoy beating up on this guy. I can't really think of any buffs to Sceptile that this mega makes except for a stat buff. In short, there is almost no reason from an analytical standpoint to choose Treecko as the starter. Sceptile's move pool and stats are contradictory, its mega typing makes it weaker, and its mega ability is worse than a waste.

I am disappointed in game freak and I hope this crime against Treecko is remedied before the release.

I think you're overstating Sceptile's shortcomings a bit. For starters (hehe, pun,) we don't know MTile's new stats yet, so saying it'll get a Sp. Atk boost or that it should've gotten a physical attack boost is a bit premature. Secondly, do not write off MTile's resistances so quickly. It 4x resists Water and Grass, is immune to Electric and also manages to resist Ground. That's a good list of resists to have. And, as I've stated previously, MTile actually works really well on Rain teams and is (for all intents and purposes) immune to paralysis. We also don't know if it gets any new moves this time around, which could potentially benefit it. I'm not convinced its good enough to be OU quite yet, but from what we know, it is far from weak or bad.

 

[jnbada123]

The difference is that T-tar and Garchomp both have abilities that actually function in a way that makes sense for them. If Sceptile's ability remains the same, anybody running a Sceptile will be telegraphing their strategy before the battle even begins. I'm extremely bummed about this mega because the dragon typing is more of a liability to sceptile than an asset. It creates more weaknesses than resistances and he can't even pick up Draco Meteor to capitalize on his typing as well as the Sp. Atk stat buff. In my opinion if they wanted to make Sceptile a viable choice when compared to the other starters, they would have adjusted him to be more of a physical attacker so he could capitalize on his more diverse physical move pool. They would have given him a different secondary type or none at all and given him an ability that he can make use of. Sure the lightning will buff his sp. atk but the hoops you have to jump through to trigger this are pretty convoluted to be able to pull it off even semi-reliably in a battle against anything other than in-game NPCs. If they wanted Sceptile to be any good they would have gone in that direction more so than giving him a typing he can't use and an ability he can make even less use of. But the developers over at GF are probably smarter about game design than I am, so we can surmise that they don't want Sceptile to be comparable. I'm convinced at this point that GF hates sceptile or enjoy beating up on this guy. I can't really think of any buffs to Sceptile that this mega makes except for a stat buff. In short, there is almost no reason from an analytical standpoint to choose Treecko as the starter. Sceptile's move pool and stats are contradictory, its mega typing makes it weaker, and its mega ability is worse than a waste.

I am disappointed in game freak and I hope this crime against Treecko is remedied before the release.

I think you're overstating Sceptile's shortcomings a bit. For starters (hehe, pun,) we don't know MTile's new stats yet, so saying it'll get a Sp. Atk boost or that it should've gotten a physical attack boost is a bit premature. Secondly, do not write off MTile's resistances so quickly. It 4x resists Water and Grass, is immune to Electric and also manages to resist Ground. That's a good list of resists to have. And, as I've stated previously, MTile actually works really well on Rain teams and is (for all intents and purposes) immune to paralysis. We also don't know if it gets any new moves this time around, which could potentially benefit it. I'm not convinced its good enough to be OU quite yet, but from what we know, it is far from weak or bad.

My concern about the typing shortcomings is that most of its resistances it already had as a straight grass type, and the dragon typing actually creates lots of weaknesses for it. Dragon and Fairy now both are super effective, as well as granting ice a 4x advantage over MTile. On top of this, we do know that Sceptile can't even pick up Draco Meteor and is in that way stuck with only dragon pulse, which i admit is a good move, to capitalize on it's special stat and dragon stab. We DO know, however, that mega evolving grants a large sp. atk hike (if you look on the pokemon website's ORAS minisite, you can find info on all 3 starters.) It's good on rain teams, sure, but since the nerfs to rain and the difficulty to set weather up (especially because Rayquaza can immediately clear any weather) is exceptional unless you run a kyogre, at which point your rain strategy is quite obvious when preparing for the battle against your opponent.

Maybe I was a little premature in my earlier statements, but I have a hard time believing that Sceptile will be of any use in anywhere but the main adventure, which is fine, but that doesn't make him good per say.

 

[szmty]

http://www.pokemonrubysapphire.com/en-us/pokemon/starter-pokemon/starter-pokemon
they gave sceptile lightning rod
i quit

We already have the Psychic/Fighting/Dark core with the Kalos trio. Why do we need it with the Hoenn trio as well?

In my opinion, Kalos's trio is kinda messed up in this aspect. In Kalos, Chesnaught has a double-weakness against Delphox, and Greninja has a double-weakness versus Chesnaught, but it performs 4x more damage to Delphox.
Here instead, you get the Grass type be Psychic, and now it'd be able to overcome its weakness against the Fire/Fighting type Pokémon, who would also overcome its weakness against the now Water/Dark type, who would be able to resist damage from the Grass/Psychic starter thanks to its Dark-typing.

I hope you understood

This is exactly why i wanted grass/dark starter in Kalos and water/fighting starter. It would make the starter decision not matter against each other, given that each starter would stand a chance just from a typing perspective against its weakness. But instead game freak decided to continue to stack the deck in favor of certain starters over others

I actually chose Chespin thinking that it would evolve into a Grass/Dark type. I used to think that Greninja was Water/Fighting and Chesnaught a Grass/Dark. I felt disappointed when I discovered that Chesnaught was actually a Fight-type. Now my Pokémon is twice as weak to Delphox!

Mega-Sceptile getting a Dragon-subtype was a bad idea IMO. Now it has a double-weakness to Ice attacks, and a new weakness to Fairy-type. The only positive thing about it is a double-resistance to Water, but still, most Water Pokémon can learn Ice attacks. Bring up a fast Water-type with Ice Beam *cough*Greninja*cough* and Mega-Sceptile will be knocked out easily.

 

[Envoy]

I actually chose Chespin thinking that it would evolve into a Grass/Dark type. I used to think that Greninja was Water/Fighting and Chesnaught a Grass/Dark. I felt disappointed when I discovered that Chesnaught was actually a Fight-type. Now my Pokémon is twice as weak to Delphox!

That's the whole point of a rock/paper/scissors matchup.

Mega-Sceptile getting a Dragon-subtype was a bad idea IMO. Now it has a double-weakness to Ice attacks, and a new weakness to Fairy-type. The only positive thing about it is a double-resistance to Water, but still, most Water Pokémon can learn Ice attacks. Bring up a fast Water-type with Ice Beam *cough*Greninja*cough* and Mega-Sceptile will be knocked out easily.

Lol @ the idea of Greninja outspeeding Mega Sceptile. Regular Sceptile is only two points slower than Greninja. I don't think its Mega will have much to worry about.

 

[szmty]

That's the whole point of a rock/paper/scissors matchup.

But in a rock/paper/scissors game, everyone has the same amount of strengths and and weaknesses. Greninja is doubly screwed if it battles with Chesnaught, Chesnaught is doubly screwed if it battles with Delphox, and Delphox is doubly screwed if it battles with Greninja. There should be more balance. It'd be better if the starters were able to neutralise their debilities.

Lol @ the idea of Greninja outspeeding Mega Sceptile. Regular Sceptile is only two points slower than Greninja. I don't think its Mega will have much to worry about.

Yeah, I guess I exaggerated. But still, Ice would deal a lot of damage, and to be fair, Greninja was the fastest Water-type Pokémon capable of learning an Ice attack I could remember when I wrote that post. There has to be someone faster. You're still screwed if it's holding a Focus Sash, and I'm sure that there has to be some scenarios where a Greninja could outspeed a Mega-Sceptile.

 

[Envoy]

But in a rock/paper/scissors game, everyone has the same amount of strengths and and weaknesses. Greninja is doubly screwed if it battles with Chesnaught, Chesnaught is doubly screwed if it battles with Delphox, and Delphox is doubly screwed if it battles with Greninja. There should be more balance. It'd be better if the starters were able to neutralise their debilities.

Except that's not how rock/paper/scissors works. Rock can't beat both paper and scissors. That goes against the whole point. It really doesn't matter how screwed they are against each other if they're screwed either way. Delphox can't beat Greninja. It doesn't matter if it got taken out by Dark Pulse or Water Pulse, it lost either way.

Yeah, I guess I exaggerated. But still, Ice would deal a lot of damage, and to be fair, Greninja was the fastest Water-type Pokémon capable of learning an Ice attack I could remember when I wrote that post. There has to be someone faster. You're still screwed if it's holding a Focus Sash, and I'm sure that there has to be some scenarios where a Greninja could outspeed a Mega-Sceptile.

Yeah, Ice attacks are still gonna suck, but but it's not like Sceptile was doing a great job tanking them before. The only difference is that now you have to be more weary about them. That's it.

For the record, the only Pokemon with a faster Ice Beam than Greninja are Weavile and a bunch of Ubers (Mewtwo, Darkrai, Deoxys.) Ice Shard is what MTile really needs to worry about. And even then, nothing that can learn the move wants to switch into MTile's Leaf Storm (except Abomasnow and Articuno who will force a switch. Offensive Donphan too [lol,] if hazards aren't up.)