The Religion Debate

[shining-Celebi]

What are your points of view of religion? Is it needed in a society? Other thoughts pertaining to religion?

POST!

I believe religion is the root of good..but also the root of all evil. Crusades, Iran-Palestanian War, etc. among others prove that religion causes unnecessary warfare, and just misfortune in General.

I consider myself a non-denominational Christian because I do believe there is a god but I do not believe there are rules on worshipping him and stuff. I believe I have my own personal connection with God and I don't need to follow any structure since It(God) is all-forgiving, and kind, and doesn't judge. Unlike some people who think God punishes, or believe you must do certain things like rituals (Lent-for Jesus but still) and stuff.

Part of the reason I don't support any Christian religion is because of the sheer hipocrosy that is found within it. Formerly I was a Catholic and I just facepalmed during one of the masses one time. Basically, the priest was saying how God had intended a path for you etc etc. Then later on he said how homosexuality is wrong etc etc. Well wait you just contradicted youself there priest. Couldn't have God determined a path to be Homosexual? And now your saying this path is "wrong"?
I'm sorry but I can't be inclined to support bigots who are prejudiced against people just for different sexual preferences.

Also the bible was for the most(or all?) part a copy of the Egyptian Book of the Dead. (Youtube search: Zeitgeist). It'll open your eyes to something new.

Over the years I have come to form my own version and opinion on god. For example, I believe It created the universe, but then after that evolution took place. So "Adam and Eve" are just metaphors for something, not really creation stories. Some people just take verses from the Bilble and overanalyze it.

 

[ii kanji]

This thread is the same as this one.

 

[Lucky Seven]

Edit; Drat you Kanji.

^Does this thread clash with the other thread in this section? Organised Religion? Nonetheless I will post regardless - I dont want to just be a rent-a-mod, must stay on topic, although the two threads do seem quite closely aligned - albiet different, the other thread deals with the organisation of religion, this is a broader topic.

Religion poses little problem on the surface, to me, as it can be viewed in a broad sense merely as an extention of emotions and a desire to convey meaning in the world. However, I see no true benefit to a large array of religious practices, and I am absolutely against the traditional idea of faith. Yes, someone should be free to believe something - a right worth defending, yet believing something on a whim, or with nothing but emotional basis, irks me immensely. Belief is unfounded Assertion, and makes absolutely no sense. I am deeply religious, but I hold no beliefs.

Those beliefs avoid my judgement if they do not harm, which they often do. Therefore I am utterly against belief in any form in which it would negatively affect the lives of others. Other questions beyond my consideration are at least worth pondering, such as 'How does belief X affect people'? or 'Would historical circumstances be different if people believed in X'? Beliefs are shifty, and I wouldn't touch them with a ten-foot poll.

As for God, or the traditional idea of (Omnipotent God), I consider the entire concept almost entirely impossible - but not totally - everything has a chance of existing, I merely think that an Omnipotent God has about the same chance of existing as a rainbow hypothermic Asparagus with mind control powers. 'God' is also a chameleon of definition, and, as I have stated elsewhere, the 'God' question is multi-choice, dealing with each defintion of God, rather than all definitions linked to a single concept. I am also unimpressed by the notion of an Omnipotent God supposedly creating the universe. It isn't answering the question, its just creating a bigger question!

I am religious, but only in the sense that I have emotions, and certain ideas make me feel in different ways - which are unfounded. Apart from that, all of my ethics come from a few simple types of reasoning.

 

[Phoenicks]

@ Lucky Seven:

I guess your religion is something like this:

"When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion." - Abraham Lincoln

 

[Lucky Seven]

"When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion." - Abraham Lincoln

That would be true if I felt as though I knew the inherent definitions of Good/Bad, but I dont. What I do know is that humans (and some animals) are capable of compassion as a result of evolution, and we are driven to survive. That is my basis for treating others kindly, but so too, even for religious people, the fact remains that their emotions are seperate from their religion, and emotions are difficult to justify. Everybody has the problem of justifying their emotions.

 

[the gadfly]

There is indeed a thread about organized religion. However, I will allow this thread as long as it doesn't wander into specific religions. Keep it to religion and I won't have to use my almighty powers.

With that in mind, why do we believe in a higher power? Is it an excuse for what we do?

 

[Barb]

Dean Hamer wrote an interesting book called "The God Gene" in which he suggests that belief systems are hardwired into humanity from birth.

 

[DerMißingno]

Dean Hamer wrote an interesting book called "The God Gene" in which he suggests that belief systems are hardwired into humanity from birth.

Care to elaborate on this? I've heard of this book, but I probably won't ever get around to reading it. It does seem like a very interesting hypothesis, though.

 

[shining-Celebi]

OK so the main topic is: A higher power among society and its role on socety's behavior?

I think society is just trying to explain nature similar to ghost theorys.
"Ahh that chair moved! GHOST!!!", for example.

Also a higher power can be used as a scare tactic and to keep society in check.

 

[Lucky Seven]

^My - probably bias - opinion is that the idea of a higher being or power is desireable because the notion appears to justify the human need for inherent moral and natural standards. I would agree that the idea of God has likely arisen simply as a combination of the complexity of human emotion and thought. For my part, even though my above posts are are quite defined^, I recognise that in order to remain impartial I am always forcing myself away from emotive thought in regard to belief. Barb^ makes a point that I can resonate with. Belief is always somehow very appealing, appeasing.

 

[Dorothy]

I am a Christian, but i am tolerant. This stems partly from the teachings of my church, and partly because of my research into the horror of the KKK and the Holocaust. The actions of those demagogues made me sick to my stomach. How God could create people so hateful I could never understand- until i realized something.

God creates conflict to make humanity stronger. The KKK, the Holocaust, all of those- those were carefully planned out by God to show us the right path.

Now, I'm a scientist, as well, and I fully believe that the Bible and evolution can peacefully coexist- but that's digression, and we can't have that.

 

[Lucky Seven]

God creates conflict to make humanity stronger. The KKK, the Holocaust, all of those- those were carefully planned out by God to show us the right path.

Wait one moment. That is alot to swallow. Firstly, the people with the highest responsibility in these acts, are they now without blame? God created the scenario, by your account. And then there are the victims of these times. Were the individuals killed, killed by God? According to your account?

And if these were created to make humanity stronger, why doesnt God just - with his power - make humanity stronger. And if you believe in an Omnipotent God, why the intervention? He already knows the outcome of history.

 

[Dorothy]

Wait one moment. That is alot to swallow. Firstly, the people with the highest responsibility in these acts, are they now without blame? God created the scenario, by your account. And then there are the victims of these times. Were the individuals killed, killed by God? According to your account?

And if these were created to make humanity stronger, why doesnt God just - with his power - make humanity stronger. And if you believe in an Omnipotent God, why the intervention? He already knows the outcome of history.

They are to blame in mortal terms. I said that God creates conflict to help us, but conflict always takes its toll. I'm not condoning the actions of Hitler or Stalin or any of them.

The Bible says itself that the path to God is never easy. God loves us and He wants us to learn from our mistakes so that we may be as perfect as we can be. There is always a paradox in omnipotence, the proverbial "rock so heavy God can't lift it," and the concept is baffling to us mortals.

I just try and enjoy the life God has planned for me, and not worry about such paradoxes.

 

[Lucky Seven]

There is always a paradox in omnipotence, the proverbial "rock so heavy God can't lift it," and the concept is baffling to us mortals.

Yes. I am familiar with the paradox, yet the rock example is weak, because it is tethered to the physical. But I do consider the paradox valid in establishing Omnipotence as illogical, although I don't suppose that will prevent you from believing. And I don't blame you for that, because true faith, despite my complete rejection of it, is unbreakable. In saying that, however, some peopl have minds that simply cannot be faithful, or need evidence to regard something as true. Belief isnt totally volentary.

I just try and enjoy the life God has planned for me, and not worry about such paradoxes.

Then we agree to disagree, because such paraoxes are, in my opinion, very important to recognise.

 

[Dorothy]

Yes. I am familiar with the paradox, yet the rock example is weak, because it is tethered to the physical. But I do consider the paradox valid in establishing Omnipotence as illogical, although I don't suppose that will prevent you from believing. And I don't blame you for that, because true faith, despite my complete rejection of it, is unbreakable. In saying that, however, some peopl have minds that simply cannot be faithful, or need evidence to regard something as true. Belief isnt totally volentary.

What isn't "tethered to the physical?" What about "Can God create a ghost so spooky it'll scare him to death?"

Then we agree to disagree, because such paraoxes are, in my opinion, very important to recognise.

Very well.

 

[Lucky Seven]

What isn't "tethered to the physical?" What about "Can God create a ghost so spooky it'll scare him to death?"

Firstly, the Ghost example you use to ridicule the paradox is still valid, because God, being Omnipotent, can create anything.

When I used that term I was referring to the fact that the 'stone' argument creates a hypothetical physical reality. However, the most succinct version of the paradox deals with thoughts. For example; Can God create a concept (thought) that he cannot comprehend? Being Omnipotent, he should be able to, but if he creates something he cannot comprehend, he is no longer Omnipotent. If he creates something beyond his comprehensinon successfully, but due to being Omnipotent, comprehends it, he fails to create something he cannot comprehend.

This example is greater because it also covers problems of God's ever contradictory assumption of foreknowledge, too. In order for God to overcome the Omnipotence paradox, he must both be limitless and limited at the same time. Or more powerful than himself, constantly. That is the logical contradiction.

Very well.

Yes. I do respect that you can believe what you wish, of course.

 

[Dorothy]

Firstly, the Ghost example you use to ridicule the paradox is still valid, because God, being Omnipotent, can create anything.

I wasn't ridiculing the paradox. It is a valid and brain-hurting point.

When I used that term I was referring to the fact that the 'stone' argument creates a hypothetical physical reality. However, the most succinct version of the paradox deals with thoughts. For example; Can God create a concept (thought) that he cannot comprehend? Being Omnipotent, he should be able to, but if he creates something he cannot comprehend, he is no longer Omnipotent. If he creates something beyond his comprehensinon successfully, but due to being Omnipotent, comprehends it, he fails to create something he cannot comprehend.

It's an intriguing though.

Fun fact: I was introduced to the omnipotence paradox by, of all things, a Fantastic Four comic book.

Yes. I do respect that you can believe what you wish, of course.

About your argument that belief isn't voluntary- it is. I can choose to firmly believe that the sky is green. Though others may try to convince me otherwise, I may very well believe the sky is green until I die.

 

[Lucky Seven]

I wasn't ridiculing the paradox. It is a valid and brain-hurting point.

Sorry. Infact, that just revealed my own bias against the idea of ghosts. I must be more observant next time.

About your argument that belief isn't voluntary- it is. I can choose to firmly believe that the sky is green. Though others may try to convince me otherwise, I may very well believe the sky is green until I die.

Can you? I cannot. Perhaps I could believe in something if everyone told me it was there, all my life, and my brain had accepted the idea to the point in which evidence no longer affected that thought. However, I know myself. With my current life experience, total belief in a concept such as God is beyond me, I would only be lying to myself. Besides, if an Omnipotent God wished for me to believe, the only thing that I require is that he shows direct evidence of his existence. Not a big ask from a being who has more than the required power to do so.

 

[TTEchidna]

You can believe that the sky is green all your life and be happy with that, but you're just gonna be lying to yourself. Or else you have a different definition of green, and thus declare that the grass is purple.

But even then, that's just a redefinition of color.

 

[Dorothy]

Sorry. Infact, that just revealed my own bias against the idea of ghosts. I must be more observant next time.

You don't believe in ghosts? :/ I do, though, and I'm happy with that belief.

Can you? I cannot. Perhaps I could believe in something if everyone told me it was there, all my life, and my brain had accepted the idea to the point in which evidence no longer affected that thought. However, I know myself. With my current life experience, total belief in a concept such as God is beyond me, I would only be lying to myself. Besides, if an Omnipotent God wished for me to believe, the only thing that I require is that he shows direct evidence of his existence. Not a big ask from a being who has more than the required power to do so.

It depends on the person, I suppose.