The Round Table

[Elieson]

How do you make your game casual/serious

When it's the playerbase that decides that, not the host?

 

[Maniacal Engineer]

How do you make your game casual/serious

When it's the playerbase that decides that, not the host?

This is a fair question, and it will take some working out to finalize a system that will work.
However, the host can decide what sort of behavior is or is not acceptable in their game and controls the atmosphere of their game.
As mentioned in my previous post, atmosphere is very important in determining whether a game is casual or advanced. Saying "casual or serious" is not a good comparison, IMO, because all mafia games are "serious" in that all players are trying to achieve their win condition.
Additionally, the host can create game mechanics that encourage one or the other.

 

[Elieson]

That's why I suggested categorizing the game, as a game, not categorizing the game, as it would be played.

I can add all the derpy mechanics I want but if 10/12 people show up and take it super seriously despite it being a rather funky setup on paper, that's not my fault as a host, and it's certainly not my place to suggest to people "how to have fun". I can suggest "how to play" but in controlling the atmosphere, I've now put two impacting features into the game before 1 signup has even occurred, that dictates the game's signup structure.

Look at my EiMM Setup. People are going to play to win, despite it being the most obvious of gimmicks. That's not my fault, and I refuse to categorize my game as "casual". This is kind of a shot at @AussieEevee because I would love a rebuttal from him, but how would you categorize a game's "level of seriousness" without influencing the way players can play upfront?

So yea basically what @ME said...just re-stated for empathy.

 

[DrumBeats]

Regardless of what the categories are, an intermediate seems necessary imho. Casual has a connotation of "all-nonsense" while Serious has a connotation of "no-nonsense." I fear that this binary split will drop average game size, because some players will refuse to play casual and some will refuse to play serious

 

[Sword Master]

Should we just make it optional for the hosts?

 

[Elieson]

Takes me back to sorting the games by Game Type.

People can anticipate a Gimmick Game to be kinda less "serious" overall.

I'm against placing what's basically a giant fence right up on my games' signup post that causes ppl to say "Oh it's a serious game. Oh well I guess since I'm new I probably can't keep up" or 'Oh it's a casual game. I don't wanna play with a bunch of noobs".

 

[Maniacal Engineer]

The one thing we are absolutely against is confining people, be they players or hosts, to one category. Anybody is welcome to play whatever game they feel like, and anybody is welcome to host whatever category game they feel like.

However, it would be nice for players to know, relatively, what they are in for when they sign up.
The currently on-going Paragon is a fantastic example of knowing a game is going to be "serious/advanced" based on the setup and the host's control of the atmosphere.
The currently on-going It's All About ME is a reasonable example of knowing a game is going to be "silly/casual" based on the design of the game, the setup, and the host himself, who is a gigantic goofball.

The labels "serious" "silly" "casual" and "advanced" have all been thrown around, but part of what we are looking to do here is define exactly what those labels would mean. The labels themselves are also subject to change, if better terminology is found.

 

[DrumBeats]

Hell, instead of limiting it to one word tags, why don't we make a statement about the intended nature of the game be a requirement for hosts in their first post. Put it in a clear spoiler marked for it and people can just check the thread to find it. It doesn't limit anyone but it lets people know what they are signing up for.

 

[Elieson]

I'd sooner start a series of themed mafias like "NOC Training Mafia #3" and/or "OC Training Quarterly". The titles indicate the purpose of the game as they are, and immediately let users know the crowd included in the game and what to expect i nterms of playstyle. Themed games are usually a mix but that's something that can indicate expected participant playstyle easily.

 

[DrumBeats]

Here's an example for what I'm talking about in my last post. Hosts could put in a statement like this to explain the nature of the game people are signing up for without limiting themselves to one word tags or spoiling aspects of the game. This example is based on my upcoming The 100 Mafia, I'll honestly likely use this whether it is required or not.

Spoiler: Nature of the Game

Though this game does have some advanced mechanics with the radio system for private communication, the game is friendly to both beginners and experienced users. The primary purpose of this game is for the enjoyment of all players through varying roles, flavor text, and solid game balance. Many roles found in the game are non-traditional, but there are no bastard roles or mechanics. The flavor text is only for entertainment purposes and no clues about the game are given in it. All users will be treated impartially by the host, and any questions about the mechanics of the game or your own role will be answered clearly.

EDIT: Since I can right here. But anyway, in regards to the above, can anybody think of anything else that would need to be discussed in the nature of the game so players can know what they are signing up for? @AussieEevee @Elieson @Maniacal Engineer @Zexy @Hellcrow @Doctor Floptopus @TheCapsFan @Life @Sword Master

Mentioning everyone who has discussed this in here for thoughts.

 

[Maniacal Engineer]

I'd sooner start a series of themed mafias like "NOC Training Mafia #3" and/or "OC Training Quarterly". The titles indicate the purpose of the game as they are, and immediately let users know the crowd included in the game and what to expect i nterms of playstyle. Themed games are usually a mix but that's something that can indicate expected participant playstyle easily.

I'm definitely not against having more tutorial style games or a series of tutorial style games, nor am I against having more games with mentors.
However, these games imply that people want to learn whatever particular skill or style is being tutored in that particular game. Again, while there's nothing wrong with that in in of itself, if someone wants to play a certain way, or wants to be more "casual" in their playstyle, that's okay too. The goal of TWR is not to take everybody who plays here and turn them into a specific "type" of player. The goal is for everyone to have a good time playing the way they want to play.

Here's an example for what I'm talking about in my last post. Hosts could put in a statement like this to explain the nature of the game people are signing up for without limiting themselves to one word tags or spoiling aspects of the game. This example is based on my upcoming The 100 Mafia, I'll honestly likely use this whether it is required or not.

Spoiler: Nature of the Game

Though this game does have some advanced mechanics with the radio system for private communication, the game is friendly to both beginners and experienced users. The primary purpose of this game is for the enjoyment of all players through varying roles, flavor text, and solid game balance. Many roles found in the game are non-traditional, but there are no bastard roles or mechanics. The flavor text is only for entertainment purposes and no clues about the game are given in it. All users will be treated impartially by the host, and any questions about the mechanics of the game or your own role will be answered clearly.

This is definitely not a bad idea, and does give the host more control over the intended atmosphere of the game than a simple one word tag would. I might have to implement this myself...if I should so choose to reveal that much about my setup.

 

[Snowy]

How do you make your game casual/serious

When it's the playerbase that decides that, not the host?

The rules and host attitude do.

Most of your games, and games like Paragon, would come under serious.

Games like Murder, She Wrote 2, Fruit Bowl Mafia, Gen 1 Mafia, etc come under casual (despite Gen 1's advanced mechanics)

It's all about ME borders on leaving casual, but is still in the casual category.

Paragon is one of the reasons that I thought about leaving TWR permanently, with the fear that games in the future would be down that line.

By the way, casual versus serious has nothing to with gimmicks or mechanics. It's all about the rules and the set up.

 

[Elieson]

SWRMM was intended to be a game taken seriously, that featured nonserious flavor. I'd call all my games serious in that regard. Hell, even EiMM, I would hope that people take it seriously, despite it being a clusterfuck of a game by design.

I assume that ME's currently running "It's all about ME" mafia is of the same sort of regard. I expect players to join it and take it seriously even if the host is lighthearted about it.

Your Murder She Wrote series games were Casual?

Paragon is intended to be a training game. It isn't the "norm" game that I nor anyone else wants to make this site about, especially with the mentors gimmick.

 

[DrumBeats]

The fact that ME's game (as well as a large amount of mafia games I have played here) fall into a borderline casual realm makes me feel even more like binary tags are not the best solution.

Aussie and Elie, what are your thoughts on my earlier idea regarding hosts posting a "Nature of The Game" type thing in the first thread post? As the two people that seem on the opposing extremes in regard to this conversation, I think your opinions on it could help refine it, or render it a bad idea.

That awkward moment when us discussing how we should categorize mafia games almost turns into a day one mafia game discussion of its own and we are deciding which methods to lynch

 

[Snowy]

SWRMM was intended to be a game taken seriously, that featured nonserious flavor. I'd call all my games serious in that regard. Hell, even EiMM, I would hope that people take it seriously, despite it being a clusterfuck of a game by design.

Players taking it seriously has nothing to do with these categories It's all about rules, set up and host attitude.

Your Murder She Wrote series games were Casual?

They were, yeah. MSW2 may have been NOC, and may have had a rule against voting for the host, But it also had a very small amount of ruleset, the set up was designed for the casual player, and the game itself was designed to be lighthearted.
Fruit Bowl Mafia and Video Game Mafia also had consequences for when you voted the host, FBM resulted in @Maniacal Engineer trolling the players and VGM would have given a random bonus to the game if I had been lynched/NKed.

The fact that ME's game (as well as a large amount of mafia games I have played here) fall into a borderline casual realm makes me feel even more like binary tags are not the best solution.

Aussie and Elie, what are your thoughts on my earlier idea regarding hosts posting a "Nature of The Game" type thing in the first thread post? As the two people that seem on the opposing extremes in regard to this conversation, I think your opinions on it could help refine it, or render it a bad idea.

That awkward moment when us discussing how we should categorize mafia games almost turns into a day one mafia game discussion of its own and we are deciding which methods to lynch

I do like it, but I think I'd have a hard time defining my game like that without giving too much away. I already struggle with that as it is.

 

[Zexy]

Host attitude and setup cannot prevent a game's atmosphere becoming serious because of aggressive/competitive/experienced players.
Rules can, though, which is why I believe tiering should be enforced through the correct rulings that will make beginners and less-experienced players still feel welcome in the Casual tier.

 

[Life]

As far as I know, "Mafia" and "Non-Mafia" tags already exist; adding a "Traditional Mafia" tag wouldn't do much except save a user two minutes from reading the opening post to find out the mechanics of a game. Since the original question dealt with the atmosphere of a game, I think tags that could categorize that aspect (such as casual or serious) would be better, as traditional/non-traditional doesn't give away much about the atmosphere as like was said, that's up to the players.

However, if a host intends for a game to be casual, then they can enforce casual rules and mod it so that a more relaxed environment is kept. If a host intends for it to be serious, they can enforce more serious rules and mod it justly.

Yes, it's completely up to the players on how they will post, but the host does have a say and ability in the outcome and final result of the atmosphere.

I think when I said casual/serious though I may not have been clear enough; of course, since this is mafia, all players should be serious to a certain extent about winning. But when I say serious as a tag, I think of intense scum-hunting, more blunt posts and matter-of-fact attitudes. Casual would allow for jokes and more lighthearted conversation that probably wouldn't be wanted in a serious environment.

Of course, I think it should ultimately be up to the host to decide what kind of game they want theirs to be, and if they want a mix of both then that should be a possibility as well. While there's no way to truly appease everybody, if, as the original question is How can we categorize games based on atmosphere and environment? I would say that that can be done by the method above; enforcement of a serious/casual/other set of rules that follow how the host would like for their game to be played.

 

[Snowy]

I had a thought. What about similar to DB's idea, but a premade form made by the mods designed to outlay exactly what the game is, in terms of rules, mechanics, setup, etc... Without giving too much away, naturally. The form would be designed to let players know exactly what they are in form, and would be required to be filled out and placed at the top in a spoiler.

Possible? Or just bad idea?

 

[Maniacal Engineer]

...I'm not sure if we can make an actual "form" but we might have a template thread that you can copy/paste into your OP and fill out. If we choose to go that route.

Part of the idea of this discussion in particular is to help us draft up a series of rules regarding classification of games. Said rules will be posted either in a new Sticky or added to a currently existing one.

 

[lovandra]

Just read this... and I'm agree to the tagline but disagree to the name choose offered.

As Elieson said, the one who most of the time choose the nature of a mafia game is the players. Paragon case happened because most of the players seem fall to 'serious' tier. The hosts only do what host supposed to do, make rule, enforced rule, and update at a supposed time to update their game.

As for tier, I suggest 'RPG Style', 'Town VS Scum', 'Non-Traditional Mafia', 'New Mechanism'

Just to differ the gamestyle. RPG Style when we use on HP system mechanism like on Gen1 Mafia. TVM for regular gameplay. NTM for game like Everyone is Mafia or when you plan more than 2 Mafia fragtions or bastard roles. New Machanism can fall to Paragon when host want to try unusual mechanism from this thread and players will expect new nature about the game.