The Timeline (Warning: Wailord Sized Spoilers)

[Jolene]

What essentially confirms that RSE are in a different timeline are the fact that you can transfer Pokemon from the originals to ORAS. The Kyogre I transferred from Emerald can Primal Revert just fine which essentially means that the orb mixup in the originals prevented Primal Kyogre/Groudon from being let loose on a world where there is no knowlege of mega evolution or primal reversion. This boneheaded mixup essentially saved that other world.

Basically, my Kyogre travelled into the future of the non mega timeline and ended up in the same time period it was originally from but an alternate timeline where mega evolution is known. It's back where it started in an alternate universe. You must note that the status page of pokemon transferred from Generation V or before say that the Pokemon travelled through Space and Time to reach you. This is all the evidence I need.

All remakes confirmed.

 

[-Luster Purge-]

so..

Spoiler

Time line 1-RBY-GSC
Time line 2-FRLG+RSE>DPpt+HGSS?BW>BW2
Time Line 3-Kanto games+ORAS>Other games???XY.
So basically ORAS is canon while also keeping RSE canon. And in episode Delta you are theoretically saving your Hoenn and protecting RSE Hoenn where the ultimate weapon and mega evolution never happened.
They basically have you protecting your memories of the old games or for many your childhood. Clever. And through this alternate timeline wobbly open the door for new kanto ect games in the same vein as ORAS. And revealing Looker as a Time Lord.

game freak went and made this world complex.

 

[Piplup]

It is time for me to finally post my thoughts. I briefly went through some posts just before getting my game and realized there's the idea of "Alternate Universes", but then decided not to spoil myself further and stop reading anything on here until I finish the story in my Alpha Sapphire game.

I have to start by saying I'm very disappointed in many of the fans, here and on other places around the internet, claiming that the AU thing fixed the continuity issues.
I mean, it COULD be used to justify the continuity issues between XY to ORAS (it would be a cheap copout way to justify it, but it could work) if they implied XY and ORAS are happening in separate universes. BUT THAT'S NOT THE CASE AT ALL.

XY and ORAS are blatantly implied to happen in the same universe. You can't argue against this. Yet IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE.
I am so, so, SO MAD over this. It drives me crazy. GameFreak kept a consistent logical timeline for over 10 years, and this one game RUINED IT.

Zinnia mentioned an alternate universe where there is a Hoenn region very similar to this one, but without mega evolution. This is merely making RSE still valid on their own, but that's it.

People acted as if the AU thing solved things or strongly affected the timeline but the truth is it didn't help or affect much at all. The timeline is still basically the same, just separated to megavesre and non-megaverse.

XY and ORAS are clearly in the same universe and ORAS is still happening YEARS before XY (just like RSE, still set in the same time as the gen 1 story)
Yet we have 2 very major contraditions to this that make it completely impossible:
- Professor Sycamore clearly say that Mega Evolution never happened yet outside of Kalos. Don't give me the ridiculous "he didn't know" thing. It's impossible for him not to know. 5+ years before the XY events literally everyone walked around Hoenn with their megas, including the super famous Lisia. It's a serious contradiction that can't be ignored. XY and ORAS simply CANNOT co-exist in the same universe, yet we're supposed to believe they do.
- A certain person in XY (I think it was a woman in Sycamore's lab) claims that the fairy type is a recent discovery. Yet various characters in ORAS are talking about the fairy type. I don't mind fairy existing as a game mechanic, but they should've made a point of not having any character mention it in their dialogue. We're now stuck in the impossible case of the fairy type being "recently discovered" despite it already being well-known about 5+ years ago. Again this doesn't make any sense at all.

So yeah. As you can see I'm very angry at everything right now. I'm angry at Gamefreak letting this happen when this could be easily avoided and I'm also angry at some fans implying the AU thing fixed the continuity issues or made any sense of mega evolution already being a thing in Hoenn when it just didn't.

All the AU thing did was merely make a point of the older games being valid on their own but that's it. I actually kind of like this and it sort of makes to break the universes where they did if you consider the real life limitations of each game series:
-Universe 1: RGBY -> GSC (the two could connect with each other and then forever lost connectivity with any future games, ending this universe)
-Universe 2: FRLG/RSE -> HGSS/DPt -> BW -> BW2 (all the games here could directly interact with each other and pass on pkmn: FRLG/RSE to HGSS/DPt through the DS system's GBA slot and Pal Park, HGSS/DPt to BW/BW2 through wireless communication and PokéTransfer, but then could never directly interact with the future games and had to rely on Pokémon Bank & PokéTransporter to send pkmn to these newer games, ending this universe)
-Universe 3: Origins/ORAS -> Mega!HGSS/Mega!DPt -> Mega!BW -> Mega!BW2/XY

Universe 1 and Universe 2 make tons of sense and works perfectly. Universe 3 though is completely messed up because Gamefreak are stupid.
Universe 3 also makes me wonder about a possible "Origins 2" and DPt/BW/BW2 remakes. But I honestly don't care about any of that right now. I just want this univerese to make sense yet it doesn't.

Ugh. I'm so sorry for the wall of text I'm just pissed off.
Also, I wonder if Gamefreak somehow believe the AU thing solved the inconsistensies like some fans think. I kind of wish some people would tweet both Matsumiya and Masuda and complain about the two blatant continuity issues XY and ORAS have. Although they'd probably just ignore it. Sigh.

 

[Silktree]

Also, I wonder if Gamefreak somehow believe the AU thing solved the inconsistensies like some fans think. I kind of wish some people would tweet both Matsumiya and Masuda and complain about the two blatant continuity issues XY and ORAS have. Although they'd probably just ignore it. Sigh.

I hate to say it, but you should forget about those XY references, too. Some things just aren't worth remembering.

 

[Piplup]

Also, I wonder if Gamefreak somehow believe the AU thing solved the inconsistensies like some fans think. I kind of wish some people would tweet both Matsumiya and Masuda and complain about the two blatant continuity issues XY and ORAS have. Although they'd probably just ignore it. Sigh.

I hate to say it, but you should forget about those XY references, too. Some things just aren't worth remembering.

Honestly I'd expect from you specifically to care a bit more. It's kind of surprising to me that you seemingly accept all this so easily. I mean, you're always so focused on the story (which is something I liked about you and always enjoyed reading your theories and ideas) yet now you're telling me to just forget about two facts stated to us just a year ago?
I don't know how you can do it, I can sort of understand other people being willing to accept it since many of them either don't care about the story at all, or care about it but not as much as we do.
I'd love to be able to bring myself to "forget about it", but I can't. I'm seriously gonna spend the rest of my life angry over this. Ugh.

I kind of really want them to do a Z now just for the sake of them hopefully being smarter this time and remove the problematic lines. Then we could pretend Z is the ultimate version and it overwrites XY. But sadly it seems they're done for this generation, otherwise I can't see the point of making all pkmn available between XY and ORAS.

 

[The Outrage]

XY's problem is the poor writing. Its clear Game Freak decided to drop the MEvo plot during development in favor of developing it in ORAS and kept the bare minimum to explain Mega Evolution in XY without doing any clean-up of the plot. Recall what Masuda said about adding the Kanto starters in XY--they weren't originally going to be in it, but he liked them so much after seeing their design that they got included. This led to a bunch of inconsistencies in-game where Shauna and Calem/Serena get starters but never use them, not even Calem/Serena who should have used them as their mega evolution (given that they came with Mega Stones), but instead had Absol.

They cut things out and added things in XY without bothering to clean up the references in the rest of the game to make it more coherent. While we shouldn't really hand-wave this as something we could ignore because of poor planning and writing, that's essentially what it is.

As for "recent discovery", in the timescale of world history, a decade is still recent. Internet would still be a "recent development" in human history, so I don't see why fairy-types as a classification isn't a recent classification even if its been 50 years, if for the past 3000 they've only classified Pokemon on 17 types (though realistically, probably 15 types, with Dark and Steel also being recent reclassifications). The comment on fairy being a recent reclassification isn't that big a deal.

 

[Piplup]

I can see what you're saying but all of this real life explanations to what caused the continuity issues doesn't really help. Fact is the XY games are what they are. No matter what caused it or why things ended up this way. And now we're stuck with having to accept the impossible scenario of having XY and ORAS in the same universe. It's driving me crazy.

 

[Silktree]

It's kind of surprising to me that you seemingly accept all this so easily.

I accept it because XY's writing is poor in general, so I don't feel that I should care about retcons to minor references that were never really explained to begin with. To me, it would have been far worse had ORAS been made contemporary with XY.

I kind of really want them to do a Z now just for the sake of them hopefully being smarter this time and remove the problematic lines. Then we could pretend Z is the ultimate version and it overwrites XY. But sadly it seems they're done for this generation, otherwise I can't see the point of making all pkmn available between XY and ORAS.

Or you can just forget about the lines without Game Freak telling you to do it (which they basically already have).

 

[The Outrage]

I can see what you're saying but all of this real life explanations to what caused the continuity issues doesn't really help. Fact is the XY games are what they are. No matter what caused it or why things ended up this way. And now we're stuck with having to accept the impossible scenario of having XY and ORAS in the same universe. It's driving me crazy.

At least you don't have to accept the tragedy that is XY's poor writing (even for Pokemon games) existing in the same universe as the rest of the series.

I'm not saying XY is bad, its great because of what it did in terms of communication features and streamlining breeding and EV training, but the former has more to do with the 3DS and the latter is really just Game Freak refining their mechanics over time. Okay, fine. If we ignore the things that aren't uniquely XY, it was a terrible game full of plot holes and bland characters, and I thank Arceus every day that in some alternate universe in the franchise, Kalos remains irrelevant.

Plot twist: The distortions in the universe caused by Mega Evolution that Zinnia says exists is actually the plot holes in XY.

From generation to generation, we pass along the lore about the distortions in the world borne by the Mega Evolution mechanism.

 

[Silktree]

Maybe Kalos has this epic story in the non-Mega universe(s) that we'll never know about.

Whoever said that only Kanto and Johto existed in the GB universe was wrong.

 

[Piplup]

I accept it because XY's writing is poor in general, so I don't feel that I should care about retcons to minor references that were never really explained to begin with.

Sure, XY sucked in general. But it's still part of the story and I can't ignore it just because it was poor writing. I know I'm just giving myself a serious headache over something that can't be helped, but I guess that's just the way I am. I can't ignore it. I'll probably keep complaining about it whenever I'd be participating at such a pkmn timeline discussion.

To me, it would have been far worse had ORAS been made contemporary with XY.

I'd actually rather that. With the fact it is now set in a different universe, I could have easier time accepting that in this universe the events of the Hoenn story are happening at a different timing, than accepting having to pretend XY didn't have said contradictions.
But that's far from my ideal scenario. Ideally they should've done one of the following:
1. Made ORAS sequels rather than remakes. It'd solve everything and would be a much nicer experience than replaying the same familiar game that didn't even truly need to be remade. It'd both satisfy the Hoenn fans AND give us a brand new game AND avoid any continuity issues. But that made too much sense for Gamefreak, I guess... (plus they rushed it and a remake is the fast/easy/lazy way to go)
2. Still have ORAS as a remake but limit Mega Evolution's parts in the story to something like only Steven and Archie/Maxie having some knowledge about it, with Steven sharing that knowledge (and the mega bracelet) with the player, asking him/her to stay quite about it and keep it a secret from the general public for a while. (so Lisia, Wally, May/Brendan, the Elite Four, none of them would use megas, and no one would talk about it aside from Steven and Maxie/Archie)

As for "recent discovery", in the timescale of world history, a decade is still recent. Internet would still be a "recent development" in human history, so I don't see why fairy-types as a classification isn't a recent classification even if its been 50 years, if for the past 3000 they've only classified Pokemon on 17 types (though realistically, probably 15 types, with Dark and Steel also being recent reclassifications). The comment on fairy being a recent reclassification isn't that big a deal.

Yeah I guess that's sort of easier to accept out of the two issues. The Mega Evo thing is a bigger deal for me.

Also, I'm not sure what to make of the supposed reference to the Mega Evo anime special. Did they really have to do that? It just further complicates everything now... although since he apparently only say it when shown the shiny Metagross (which I'm super annoyed at everyone in-game refering to as "white" rather than silver/grey) I guess we can say it's not necessarily "canon"... or I guess that some AU version of Alan is going around in their world...

 

[Silktree]

Also, I'm not sure what to make of the supposed reference to the Mega Evo anime special. Did they really have to do that? It just further complicates everything now... although since he apparently only say it when shown the shiny Metagross (which I'm super annoyed at everyone in-game refering to as "white" rather than silver/grey) I guess we can say it's not necessarily "canon"... or I guess that some AU version of Alan is going around in their world...

It's about the same as the BW Zoroark event referencing Movie 13. References that are so poorly thought out aren't worth taking seriously, especially if they're tied to events that have no in-story origin.

 

[Esserise]

- Professor Sycamore clearly say that Mega Evolution never happened yet outside of Kalos. Don't give me the ridiculous "he didn't know" thing. It's impossible for him not to know. 5+ years before the XY events literally everyone walked around Hoenn with their megas, including the super famous Lisia.

No, what he said was that there were "examples of Mega Evolution" found only in Kalos. He didn't say that Mega Evolution had only ever taken place in Kalos before. Granted, even with the line as it is, it doesn't make much sense (because there are no Mega Evolutions that feature in XY but not in ORAS), but that's way more vague and non-specific than saying, "It has only ever happened in Kalos."

2. Still have ORAS as a remake but limit Mega Evolution's parts in the story to something like only Steven and Archie/Maxie having some knowledge about it, with Steven sharing that knowledge (and the mega bracelet) with the player, asking him/her to stay quite about it and keep it a secret from the general public for a while. (so Lisia, Wally, May/Brendan, the Elite Four, none of them would use megas, and no one would talk about it aside from Steven and Maxie/Archie)

But it's not kept secret from the general public, even in XY. There is literally a giant tower dedicated to Mega Evolution in Shalour City. The only reason why most people don't know much about it seems to be because very few Trainers even have access to the materials for it, let alone are able to master it. If only a handful of people in the country are capable of pulling it off, and don't necessarily do so in every battle, then the information about it is not necessarily going to spread like wildfire, and even if it does, not everyone will necessarily believe it. That's how we get things like the little girl in Ambrette who says, "I heard that some Pokémon can Evolve during a battle! Wowee!" It's just a rumor she heard from someone who heard from someone. And really, the only new information about it that comes up in ORAS that wasn't stated in XY was all of the Mega Rayquaza stuff, but that knowledge was held by a secret society that didn't share their information with outsiders, and were a long way away from Kalos.

 

[zoroarctic]

I wouldn't get so worked up over it. The issues can always be resolved in future games.

 

[Morningstar]

Okay I'm a gonna give my interpretation of events:

Gen 6 is the START of a new timeline. AZ's Ultimate Weapon created a new universe in which the preceding games are not canon (at least not to the extent they were in previous gens) but are still canon in general because a multiverse has been canonized.

Relative to the franchise. XY and ORAS are concurrent, relative to each other; XY might have happened a few years before ORAS.

RGBY, will either be retconned to be concurrent with a future Gen or be kept concurrent with ORAS (and by extension XY) a broad strokes depending on whether or not they will make another Gen 1 remake or sequel. The same applies to Johto for obvious reasons

Going off of the current and last Generation. GF will alternate between making a third game or sequel and remaking a past generation so Gen VII will have third games and Gen IX will have Sinnoh remkaes

DPPt will likely be canon in concurrent to Gen VIII and BW will be concurrent to Gen X (with BW2 also being concurrent on the macro scale but taking palace a few years after the other Gen XI games)

The (tenative) result:

• Megaverse: XY ≥ ORAS (=FRLG) > Gen VII > Gen VIII ≥ DPPt remakes(=HGSS) > Gen IX > Gen X ≥ BW remakes ≥ B2W2 remakes > Gen XI...
• Oldverse: RGBY=RSE > GSC=DPPt > BW ≥ B2W2

 

[xxxthebxxx]

The whole idea of 3 Universes as mentioned above does make a lot of sense, but what about that tweet from Toshinobu Matsumiya? Sure, it was before ORAS, but it includes X/Y in it's timeline.
What if it's possible that there are two X/Y's, the one that we just played through (and part of Universe 2 from above), and one within the new Universe with ORAS (and perhaps Origins)? It would clear up Sycamore's contradictions about Mega Evolution and other NPC comments on Fairy types. Probably a silly idea, but just a thought.

 

[Esserise]

The whole idea of 3 Universes as mentioned above does make a lot of sense, but what about that tweet from Toshinobu Matsumiya? Sure, it was before ORAS, but it includes X/Y in it's timeline.
What if it's possible that there are two X/Y's, the one that we just played through (and part of Universe 2 from above), and one within the new Universe with ORAS (and perhaps Origins)? It would clear up Sycamore's contradictions about Mega Evolution and other NPC comments on Fairy types. Probably a silly idea, but just a thought.

The problem there is that Mega Evolution was only discovered/extended to Pokémon beyond just Rayquaza because of AZ's war, which according to the Delta Episode, did not happen in the previous generations' timeline. Zinnia specifically states that Mega Evolution does not exist there, so an XY in the Dual-Slot Universe would be completely devoid of it, and there would be nothing for Sycamore to comment on. But contrast that with ORAS, which references XY a ton.

Put simply, XY was just a sloppy mishandling. But there's really nothing in it that renders XY and ORAS hopelessly inconsistent. Heck, if you look back at it, Sycamore doesn't even really mention Mega Evolution that much. I think it's like, five times? And he never says that it's never been heard of anywhere else.

As far as the tweet timeline goes, I have to assume that the guy posted that before they had fully worked out the details of the Delta Episode's plot. But at any rate, it's not as if it was ever hard canon to begin with. It was a tweet. If one were so inclined to ignore it in favor of their own interpretation, then they would be entirely free to do so.

 

[Silktree]

Matsumiya's tweet doesn't distinguish original games from their remakes. It just refers to the main events, which can be placed on a timeline regardless of multiverse discrepancies.

 

[Piplup]

I'm still shocked of people having such an easy time accepting this bullshit. I wanna shoot myself.
I can't even find the words to describe how completely annoyed I am and I just can't get over it. I know most of you would say I'm "thinking too much" or whatever, but I just can't help it. Some of you clearly don't really care too much for the story, but I'm really surprised that even the few who do care seem to be so accepting of this.
You can argue the fairy type thing as being relatively-recent rather than actually recent, but you can't even try justifying the bigger issue that is Sycamore's claims about Mega Evo not happening yet outside Kalos. It doesn't make any sense. XY and ORAS just cannot co-exist. Yet they do. Ugh.

 

[Esserise]

I'm still shocked of people having such an easy time accepting this bullshit. I wanna shoot myself.
I can't even find the words to describe how completely annoyed I am and I just can't get over it. I know most of you would say I'm "thinking too much" or whatever, but I just can't help it. Some of you clearly don't really care too much for the story, but I'm really surprised that even the few who do care seem to be so accepting of this.
You can argue the fairy type thing as being relatively-recent rather than actually recent, but you can't even try justifying the bigger issue that is Sycamore's claims about Mega Evo not happening yet outside Kalos. It doesn't make any sense. XY and ORAS just cannot co-exist. Yet they do. Ugh.

Well, number one, these are just video games, in which the story isn't even the main point. Don't get me wrong; I'm a huge story nut. But even if this was some major contradiction, it wouldn't be something to get so worked up over.

But number two, it isn't some major contradiction. Literally, the only things that Sycamore says about Mega Evolution are as follows:

> "Also, I want to ask for your help in solving the Kalos region's biggest Pokémon mystery: the secret and potential of Mega Evolution, a new kind of Evolution that occurs in battle! That's why I gave you that Mega Stone just now. It's an important clue!" ... "If you're investigating Mega Evolution, why don't you check out Camphrier Town? That town has a lot of history--you might find a hint there!"

> "Congratulations! I see you finally obtained everything you need for Mega Evolution! A Mega Stone for the Pokémon, a Mega Ring for the Trainer, and a strong bond with your Pokémon." ... "It's only a hypothesis, but I think the bond between Pokémon and Trainer is the key to this new Evolution. But what is this bond, exactly? And why are there examples of Mega Evolution only in the Kalos region? There's still so much we don't know..."

> "I was just having a conversation with Lysandre about Mega Evolution."

> "Let's talk about Mega Stones briefly. My theory is that they're special stones irradiated by the light - the energy of the Legendary Pokemon Xerneas/Yveltal - fired from the ultimate weapon 3,000 years ago. And that's what I think they are. It's even possible that stones like Fire Stones were what turned into these Mega Stones. So, what's the Mega Ring you are holding? That mysterious stone transforms feelings felt towards Pokemon into some kind of wavelength. The Mega Ring works in a similar way to how this object over here works. It's an object that changes sunlight into a mysterious light. For one hour starting at 8 pm, this sundial starts emitting light. This mysterious object has towered over the city here for over 3,000 years. It's relationship to the Mega Ring isn't understood at all yet. Now, let's get down to the heart of the matter! (Player's name)! Try touching the sundial! You were exposed to the Legendary Pokemon's energy in Team Flare's secret HQ. And the Mega Ring has absorbed the power of the sundial. These two powers have combined to upgrade your Mega Ring. Now, it will react to underground Mega Stones, but only when the sundial is emitting light. I'm sure these stones hide in every corner of Kalos! Use this power to find them!"

Now what, in all of that, contradicts anything that we learn in ORAS? The only line that doesn't fit is the one about there being examples of Mega Evolution that are only found in Kalos, but that's more a mechanical issue than a narrative one because there are no Mega Evolutions that are exclusive to XY*. Even when he says that it's a "new" kind of Evolution, he's really only pitching it to the player and their friends in a way that will pique their interest, because we know that it isn't really "new." There's a centuries-old tower in Shalour City where people (including Sycamore himself at one time) go to study it.


* Although technically speaking, the Mega Stones that cannot be found in Hoenn until after the weather crisis would, in a sense, be "examples found only in the Kalos region," because they were first created there. Even if Sycamore knows about, say, the Gardevoirite that Wanda found in Hoenn (and that's assuming that Hoenn even has a. somebody who actually studies and keeps track of Mega Evolution - remember, Steven only likes them because they're rocks, and b. that that person knows who Professor Sycamore is and how to contact him, which also depends on c. how long Sycamore has been the primary Professor in Kalos - also remember that when he was younger, he was busy travelling around the world and trying out cafés), he would also know that those Stones are far more recent duplicates because they were formed as a result of the weather crisis X years before, whereas Gardevoirite have existed in Kalos for centuries, so obviously, they started off in Kalos. Knowing that the weather crisis created more Gardevoirite in Hoenn doesn't tell him how the ones in Kalos came to be.